http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/sports/basketball/for-knicks-celebrated-trade-celebrated-no-more.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

The imagery will be irresistible, the temptation for sweeping judgments overpowering. Conclusions will be drawn and proclamations made, all of it justifiable, albeit possibly premature.

The Denver Nuggets are coming to Madison Square Garden on Saturday, bringing with them a fluid, egalitarian offense, a gleaming win-loss record and a vivid reminder of the trade that irrevocably altered the Knicks’ destiny.

Judgment will be in the eyes of the beholder, although those eyes may be stinging with rage.

The Nuggets are 28-12 since the day they sent their star, Carmelo Anthony, to New York for a package of young players and draft picks. The Knicks are 20-22 since Anthony arrived.

Prudence dictates that a trade of such magnitude cannot be fully appraised after 40 games, stretched over 11 months. But prudence has never been the New York way, and the results so far stand as a searing indictment.

Few Knicks trades have been so polarizing.

Anthony is the franchise’s most dynamic player in decades. But the Knicks paid a steep price: four starters and at least one first-round pick. The trade destroyed a promising youth movement, choked the payroll and made the Knicks wholly dependent on one fabulously skilled but flawed superstar.

The payoff was supposed to be instant and glorious. It has yet to arrive.

It goes beyond the win-loss records, to the makeup and personality of the teams, post-trade.

The Nuggets are all ball movement and depth, with the N.B.A.’s fifth-highest scoring average, its highest assist rate and a lineup of understated, complementary stars. The Knicks are top-heavy but talent poor, with a domineering star, a weak supporting cast and an offense that ranks among the N.B.A.’s most feeble.

That is the contrast that will be on display Saturday night at the Garden.

“I think it’s an awkward contrast,” Coach Mike D’Antoni said Thursday, “just because we’re still filling up holes in behind that trade.” But, he said, “We got some really good players.”

The Nuggets clearly did, too.

Danilo Gallinari, the Knicks’ lottery pick in 2008, is now Denver’s second-leading scorer, averaging 15.9 points. Timofey Mozgov, a skilled and young 7-footer discovered by the Knicks in 2010, is now the Nuggets’ starting center. Denver flipped Raymond Felton — the Knicks’ former starting point guard — for Andre Miller, who is providing bench depth. Wilson Chandler, the final player in the Anthony deal, is playing in China, but the Nuggets could re-sign him in March.

The Nuggets are two deep at nearly every position. Their second-string guards — Miller and Rudy Fernandez — could start for the Knicks. The Knicks’ bench is beyond dreadful, a collection of eighth and ninth men masquerading as sixth men.

The trade robbed the Knicks of their depth, so it can be judged harshly under present circumstances. But that is also why it is still too soon to properly assess it. It takes time to replenish a roster after jettisoning four starters.

As difficult as it is to acquire a player of Anthony’s caliber, it is nearly as challenging to find high-caliber starters as good as Gallinari, Chandler, Felton and Mozgov under a salary-cap system. The Knicks did well in acquiring Tyson Chandler and drafting Iman Shumpert last year, but they need another off-season to finish the roster.

This is the conundrum that the Garden chairman James L. Dolan created when he rammed through the Anthony deal over the concerns of his basketball executives.

Eleven months and one truncated training camp later, the Knicks are still trying to mesh Anthony with Stoudemire, and with an offense predicated on passing and tempo, not plodding isolation. Anthony is still playing the way he did for seven-plus seasons in Denver, dominating the ball, firing contested jump shots and forcing his team to live and die with his shooting streaks.

George Karl, the Nuggets’ respected head coach, tussled with Anthony over the same concerns through five and a half tense seasons together. Anthony always got the Nuggets to the playoffs, but he led them past the first round only once. He always scored a lot, but he rarely seemed to lift those around him, averaging 3.1 assists for his career.

It is no coincidence that every Nuggets player speaks in terms of selfishness and selflessness in assessing their remade roster.

Arron Afflalo was the latest, saying this week, “We have a group of unselfish players,” and adding, “From a selfish mentality to the willingness to grow and learn together, this group is very good.”

Karl tried for years to get Anthony to pull back a little, to pass a little more, to shoot a little less, to defend a little more passionately. Those burdens now fall to D’Antoni, who has no job security and no desire to engage in a battle of wills with the owner’s hand-picked star.

Anthony is averaging a career-best 4.1 assists, but is shooting a career-low .411 from the field. He remains an impulsive shooter who shows little faith in teammates, going 14 for 49 over the last two games while playing with an injured wrist. (Anthony missed Thursday’s practice to deal with a family matter, but is expected to play Friday night against the Milwaukee Bucks.)

On Thursday, D’Antoni again preached the need for ball movement, pace and rhythm, without naming the primary culprit. The most illuminating remarks came from Stoudemire, a longtime D’Antoni disciple who — for all his flaws — has become the most vocal defender of his playbook.

“Coach D’Antoni is an offensive genius,” Stoudemire said. “He’s been very successful with this offense, and he knows what it takes to score and how to win. So we just got to make sure we believe in his strategy and follow through with it.”

No names were necessary. The Knicks know that the only person who can ultimately validate the Carmelo Anthony trade is Carmelo Anthony.http://http://

But we need years to accurately evaluate this deal, so time will tell.

I will, however, say that given Melo's reputation as a Superstar Baller, my brain is a little upset that we are not better than Denver immedietly after the trade.

Arron Afflalo says it best, “We have a group of unselfish players,” and adding, “From a selfish mentality to the willingness to grow and learn together, this group is very good.”

The operative words are "willingness to grow and learn together"

Why have we not heard that from our leaders?

crzymdups wrote:I mean, if you look at what the Nuggets have left from the Melo deal, right now it's Gallo and Mozgov. Wilson, we assume will be back, but you never know.

The thing that is disconcerting is how much better the Nuggets seemed to play as a team once Melo left. And he seemingly prevented them from playing up tempo as well.

I think Melo is meant to be a classic half-court, grind-it-out player. I think Melo would be perfect on a JVG team. Amar'e is a perfect up tempo player. The big question of the trade is whether Melo and Amar'e can ever mesh.

That's a bigger question than the depth argument, to me. I don't actually think depth will be an issue by the time Baron comes back and with the potential to add JR Smith or Kmart.

The issue will still be: Can Melo and Amar'e play together?

And that's how the trade will have to be judged in the end.

I'm still somewhat hopeful the answer is an eventual yes - based on the fact that when they've had a real PG, they've looked good. Whether Baron is the long-term answer or they're able to get a Nash or Felton or Ridnour this summer to finally be the long-term answer... I don't think we can judge the trade until there is an actual starting point guard here.

How are they playing better without Melo? Seriously, those teams with Melo consistantly won over 50 every year except his rookie season. They got bounced out of the first round by the Lakers and Spurs who had homecourt advantage.

The Knuggets got swept first round last year. How were they playing better? Other than Gallo, no other former Knick is contributing Sh##. Denver was deep before the trade and they are deep after. They have 2 excellent pg's, a good PF, and a deep bench, one of them (Brewer) was cast aside by our coach without giving him a shot.

Lost youth movement? The Knicks still have a number of young players on the team. First, Carmelo is just entering his prime - he's a little more than 27.5 at this stage. He's still got upside to his career.
Six players, Douglas, Shumpert, Harrelson, Fields, Walker, and Lin are all 25 or less.
Five of them are in the active rotation and have started at least at some point this season.
Two of them are currently starting.

Denver is playing well now, the Knicks are not.

So many other reasonable explanations chalk it up to measuring the two teams against each other at the wrong time, Amare underperforming, management not addressing the need for PG leadership, or maybe they have a better coaching staff!

Or we can just blame Melo as a ball-hogging cancer that's lazy on D. (perhaps that's as good an explanation as any)

Uptown wrote:

crzymdups wrote:<snip>
I'm still somewhat hopeful the answer is an eventual yes - based on the fact that when they've had a real PG, they've looked good. Whether Baron is the long-term answer or they're able to get a Nash or Felton or Ridnour this summer to finally be the long-term answer... I don't think we can judge the trade until there is an actual starting point guard here.

How are they playing better without Melo? Seriously, those teams with Melo consistantly won over 50 every year except his rookie season. They got bounced out of the first round by the Lakers and Spurs who had homecourt advantage.

The Knuggets got swept first round last year. How were they playing better? Other than Gallo, no other former Knick is contributing Sh##. Denver was deep before the trade and they are deep after. They have 2 excellent pg's, a good PF, and a deep bench, one of them (Brewer) was cast aside by our coach without giving him a shot.

If you can't understand how ****ed we are at the moment it's because your basing your logic on hope. We have all our money tied up in three players, two don't play defense and need the ball at all times and the third has no offensive game. Chandler is paid elite dollars and is not an elite player. The East Centers (Hawes, Noah, Hibbert,McGee, Bogut, etc). Tyson had a nice run on a very deep team. He wasn't the second best player that was Jason Terry, they were littered with veterans and it was a perfect situation for him. The Knicks are not.

Denver moved Felton for Miller so he is part of the deal. They also had added flexibility to add Rudy to there team. The article is fair and concerning. If we don't get anything from Davis we may miss the playoffs. Then we have to hope we get Raymond Felton, Jameer or Nash in the offseason. We don't have a pick next year either so how are we going to add talent.

Players will go to the Bulls or Heat before they come here. If you're Steve Nash why not go win a title with Lebron. Who is a superstar unlike Melo. Wade goes out he carries his team to victory. We don't have a guy that can do that.

martin wrote:

MS wrote:Again why is it unfair to judge this team. We don't have a point guard for a reason. Carmelo wanted his money, which he was getting anyway and he wanted it now.

If you can't understand how ****ed we are at the moment it's because your basing your logic on hope. We have all our money tied up in three players, two don't play defense and need the ball at all times and the third has no offensive game. Chandler is paid elite dollars and is not an elite player. The East Centers (Hawes, Noah, Hibbert,McGee, Bogut, etc). Tyson had a nice run on a very deep team. He wasn't the second best player that was Jason Terry, they were littered with veterans and it was a perfect situation for him. The Knicks are not.

Denver moved Felton for Miller so he is part of the deal. They also had added flexibility to add Rudy to there team. The article is fair and concerning. If we don't get anything from Davis we may miss the playoffs. Then we have to hope we get Raymond Felton, Jameer or Nash in the offseason. We don't have a pick next year either so how are we going to add talent.

Players will go to the Bulls or Heat before they come here. If you're Steve Nash why not go win a title with Lebron. Who is a superstar unlike Melo. Wade goes out he carries his team to victory. We don't have a guy that can do that.

we don't have a PG because we thought it in the best long term interest to turn him into Tyson. Has nothing to do with Melo.

Could not agree more. Everyone blames the Melo trade but if we waited one more year, did not amnesty Billups and got a PG in the 2012 offseason, we could have been in a much better situation to compete.

Also, we still could have amnestied Amare and gotten another Max player instead (if Amare just wasn't cutting it for a Max player). We could have potentially gotten CP3/DWil and Howard.

That gamble was the biggest mistake (potentially) that the Knicks management commited. If Amare starts going downhill, we are stuck with him (and he is uninsured). He has definitely been look older. To me, it was all about the amnesty.

Tyson Chandler anchors our defense, but his inability to post up or hit a free throw distance shot hurts.
Amare not being able to post up is not accpetable.

After all is said, WE DIDNT NEED MELO. ITS NOT A MUST DO, its easier to add a FA in the summer while keeping that core to compete.
But we wanted that big name player and payed greatly for it.
As bad as Amare is playing now, we had the players to even send him to the bench.

Tyson Chandler and Iman added to our Pre Melo Knicks, is exactly what we needed, all you Melo supporters, its not about MELO.
ITS ABOUT WHAT WE GAVE UP and our inability to add talent after that....

I don't know if the Knicks would target Tyson Chandler as a FA, but to say he wouldn't have come here because Melo was not here is retarded...
He want to show the world what he could to do change the culture of the team with his defense alone.
They say that Melo n Amare stuff to shut the media up and make Dolan, Melo and Amare sound better.
They are there already anyway, might as well say they are the reason.
You expect Tyson Chandler to ever say "I prefer playing team basketball with Gallo, WIlson CHadler, n Felton etc...."?

They are missing the point, those teams would have spanked us even harder....

RonRon wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

martin wrote:

MS wrote:Again why is it unfair to judge this team. We don't have a point guard for a reason. Carmelo wanted his money, which he was getting anyway and he wanted it now.

If you can't understand how ****ed we are at the moment it's because your basing your logic on hope. We have all our money tied up in three players, two don't play defense and need the ball at all times and the third has no offensive game. Chandler is paid elite dollars and is not an elite player. The East Centers (Hawes, Noah, Hibbert,McGee, Bogut, etc). Tyson had a nice run on a very deep team. He wasn't the second best player that was Jason Terry, they were littered with veterans and it was a perfect situation for him. The Knicks are not.

Denver moved Felton for Miller so he is part of the deal. They also had added flexibility to add Rudy to there team. The article is fair and concerning. If we don't get anything from Davis we may miss the playoffs. Then we have to hope we get Raymond Felton, Jameer or Nash in the offseason. We don't have a pick next year either so how are we going to add talent.

Players will go to the Bulls or Heat before they come here. If you're Steve Nash why not go win a title with Lebron. Who is a superstar unlike Melo. Wade goes out he carries his team to victory. We don't have a guy that can do that.

we don't have a PG because we thought it in the best long term interest to turn him into Tyson. Has nothing to do with Melo.

Could not agree more. Everyone blames the Melo trade but if we waited one more year, did not amnesty Billups and got a PG in the 2012 offseason, we could have been in a much better situation to compete.

Also, we still could have amnestied Amare and gotten another Max player instead (if Amare just wasn't cutting it for a Max player). We could have potentially gotten CP3/DWil and Howard.

That gamble was the biggest mistake (potentially) that the Knicks management commited. If Amare starts going downhill, we are stuck with him (and he is uninsured). He has definitely been look older. To me, it was all about the amnesty.

Let me see you give up 80 million dollars...

Who Dolan? How many years has he been 20 million + over the cap?