Juice wrote:

martin wrote:

Juice wrote:He plays Turiaf/JJ/Carter sparingly and/or sporadically and he can't play just 5 players. There is no grasping at straws here. The only player getting any real minutes(consistent rate of pt) at the moment of those 3 is Carter. Turiaf and Effries have become more situational which is fine if since he finally realized hey..... I can play Shelden too? Turiaf was touch and go almost all year because he wasn't Mr. Vitality but still there were many moments you wondered where he was at during the season

A player like Anthony Roberson can crack the rotation/make the team before someone like Corey Brewer is the point many of us are getting at

Show me an example(s) of a player who had a dominant offensive skillset over defensive where D'AnToni refused to play him?

There really is no way to compare Fields' playing time to Walker's and the justifying of minutes. Hell there was a point in time we were allowing teams to score near 108PPG while Walker was getting consistent DNPs and Landry logging heavy minutes. I'm sure Fields was guilty along with the other players who were getting clock allowing such high PPG and FG% during our worst stretches of the year.

Turiaf would get consistent minutes as a Knick if he was healthy. And to think that you think AC is more in the rotation than Turiaf kind of shows me you either aren't paying attention to the injury reports of haven't seen him all year, especially early on.

Did you just say that Roberson cracked the rotation and then compare his situation to that of Brewers? I asked it in another thread. Brewer is a SG/SF. Melo, Fields, Walker, Shawne, TD all can play either SG or SF. And you would want Brewer around next year at $5M? You think that reasonable? Who's minutes would you cut? and why?

Let me know when a competent defensive player was constantly overlooked by a mediocre offensive skillset player in which MDA refused to play said defensive player.

No what I'm saying Carter is guaranteed more so to get his 10-15min every game over Turiaf getting 20. Turiaf/Effries are liable to play 26min one game and then play 9 min the next at this point. While these two may play more minutes in a particular game, Carter appears to have the more given minutes locked in.

what part of Turiaf being hurt don't you understand?

martin wrote:

Juice wrote:

martin wrote:

Juice wrote:He plays Turiaf/JJ/Carter sparingly and/or sporadically and he can't play just 5 players. There is no grasping at straws here. The only player getting any real minutes(consistent rate of pt) at the moment of those 3 is Carter. Turiaf and Effries have become more situational which is fine if since he finally realized hey..... I can play Shelden too? Turiaf was touch and go almost all year because he wasn't Mr. Vitality but still there were many moments you wondered where he was at during the season

A player like Anthony Roberson can crack the rotation/make the team before someone like Corey Brewer is the point many of us are getting at

Show me an example(s) of a player who had a dominant offensive skillset over defensive where D'AnToni refused to play him?

There really is no way to compare Fields' playing time to Walker's and the justifying of minutes. Hell there was a point in time we were allowing teams to score near 108PPG while Walker was getting consistent DNPs and Landry logging heavy minutes. I'm sure Fields was guilty along with the other players who were getting clock allowing such high PPG and FG% during our worst stretches of the year.

Turiaf would get consistent minutes as a Knick if he was healthy. And to think that you think AC is more in the rotation than Turiaf kind of shows me you either aren't paying attention to the injury reports of haven't seen him all year, especially early on.

Did you just say that Roberson cracked the rotation and then compare his situation to that of Brewers? I asked it in another thread. Brewer is a SG/SF. Melo, Fields, Walker, Shawne, TD all can play either SG or SF. And you would want Brewer around next year at $5M? You think that reasonable? Who's minutes would you cut? and why?

Let me know when a competent defensive player was constantly overlooked by a mediocre offensive skillset player in which MDA refused to play said defensive player.

No what I'm saying Carter is guaranteed more so to get his 10-15min every game over Turiaf getting 20. Turiaf/Effries are liable to play 26min one game and then play 9 min the next at this point. While these two may play more minutes in a particular game, Carter appears to have the more given minutes locked in.

what part of Turiaf being hurt don't you understand?

What part of Shelden is now being discussed as a possible starting center for the playoffs by this coach as part of exhibit 1-Z-## of his EXTREME method of operation don't you understand

A guy can go from DNP city to starting position in the playoffs much like Mozgov got DNPd like 12-16gms straight then when Shawne Williams the sure fire starting center gets suspended he plays Moz 40min at first crack off of DNP city

EXTREME no balance, no principle....COACH BY FEEL or COACH BY JOHNNY COME LATELY or COACH BY LOSSES PILING UP I MUST MAKE SOME KIND OF CHANGE or COACH BY WE'RE WINNING I'LL MAKE A RANDOM DECISION BASED ON GUT

I already acknowledged Turiaf's situation by using the word Vitality(Life-Health) lack thereof which you quoted a couple posts ago. At the same time I can find about 6-8gms this year where he just kept him on the bench inexplicably early on...when Vital.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=38724
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nixluva wrote:

Juice wrote:What part of Shelden is now being discussed as a possible starting center for the playoffs by this coach as part of exhibit 1-Z-## of his EXTREME method of operation don't you understand

A guy can go from DNP city to starting position in the playoffs much like Mozgov got DNPd like 12-16gms straight then when Shawne Williams the sure fire starting center gets suspended he plays Moz 40min at first crack off of DNP city

EXTREME no balance, no principle....COACH BY FEEL or COACH BY JOHNNY COME LATELY or COACH BY LOSSES PILING UP I MUST MAKE SOME KIND OF CHANGE

I already acknowledged Turiaf's situation by using the word Vitality(Life-Health) lack thereof which you quoted a couple posts ago. At the same time I can find about 6-8gms this year where he just kept him on the bench inexplicably early on...when Vital.

When a coach doesn't have great options you see players go in and out of the rotation. When you have a solid player they stay in their spot and become solid rotation players. If we had a serious option at C we wouldn't see any changes there. Mike is trying to make the best of a bad situation. Look at the options we have and what makes you think any of these guys is capable of being a reliable starting C and lock down the position? Turiaf has never been able to show he can play starter minutes, Shelden is a career bench player and only played due to injury, Jared never got off the bench in Houston. I mean come on man, get real.

Part of the problem..... he's never tried to establish a traditional lineup since he's been here. When he's had bigs, he didn't want to play them. The only position

Williams started 32 of 42 games for Denver, who were in playoff contention. It was apparent he should have got into the rotation quickly. You know the guy who played with Melo. We needed size he gives us a little of it more than Effries and more than Williams and more than Turiaf for a middle man. He got almost 9 DNPs and a bunch of losses before the coach wised up on this.

CashMoney wrote:

Juice wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Juice wrote:What part of Shelden is now being discussed as a possible starting center for the playoffs by this coach as part of exhibit 1-Z-## of his EXTREME method of operation don't you understand

A guy can go from DNP city to starting position in the playoffs much like Mozgov got DNPd like 12-16gms straight then when Shawne Williams the sure fire starting center gets suspended he plays Moz 40min at first crack off of DNP city

EXTREME no balance, no principle....COACH BY FEEL or COACH BY JOHNNY COME LATELY or COACH BY LOSSES PILING UP I MUST MAKE SOME KIND OF CHANGE

I already acknowledged Turiaf's situation by using the word Vitality(Life-Health) lack thereof which you quoted a couple posts ago. At the same time I can find about 6-8gms this year where he just kept him on the bench inexplicably early on...when Vital.

When a coach doesn't have great options you see players go in and out of the rotation. When you have a solid player they stay in their spot and become solid rotation players. If we had a serious option at C we wouldn't see any changes there. Mike is trying to make the best of a bad situation. Look at the options we have and what makes you think any of these guys is capable of being a reliable starting C and lock down the position? Turiaf has never been able to show he can play starter minutes, Shelden is a career bench player and only played due to injury, Jared never got off the bench in Houston. I mean come on man, get real.

Part of the problem..... he's never tried to establish a traditional lineup since he's been here. When he's had bigs, he didn't want to play them. The only position

Williams started 32 of 42 games for Denver, who were in playoff contention. It was apparent he should have got into the rotation quickly. You know the guy who played with Melo. We needed size he gives us a little of it more than Effries and more than Williams and more than Turiaf for a middle man. He got almost 9 DNPs and a bunch of losses before the coach wised up on this.

What bigs didn't play??

crzymdups wrote:

Juice wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Juice wrote:What part of Shelden is now being discussed as a possible starting center for the playoffs by this coach as part of exhibit 1-Z-## of his EXTREME method of operation don't you understand

A guy can go from DNP city to starting position in the playoffs much like Mozgov got DNPd like 12-16gms straight then when Shawne Williams the sure fire starting center gets suspended he plays Moz 40min at first crack off of DNP city

EXTREME no balance, no principle....COACH BY FEEL or COACH BY JOHNNY COME LATELY or COACH BY LOSSES PILING UP I MUST MAKE SOME KIND OF CHANGE

I already acknowledged Turiaf's situation by using the word Vitality(Life-Health) lack thereof which you quoted a couple posts ago. At the same time I can find about 6-8gms this year where he just kept him on the bench inexplicably early on...when Vital.

When a coach doesn't have great options you see players go in and out of the rotation. When you have a solid player they stay in their spot and become solid rotation players. If we had a serious option at C we wouldn't see any changes there. Mike is trying to make the best of a bad situation. Look at the options we have and what makes you think any of these guys is capable of being a reliable starting C and lock down the position? Turiaf has never been able to show he can play starter minutes, Shelden is a career bench player and only played due to injury, Jared never got off the bench in Houston. I mean come on man, get real.

Part of the problem..... he's never tried to establish a traditional lineup since he's been here. When he's had bigs, he didn't want to play them. The only position

Williams started 32 of 42 games for Denver, who were in playoff contention. It was apparent he should have got into the rotation quickly. You know the guy who played with Melo. We needed size he gives us a little of it more than Effries and more than Williams and more than Turiaf for a middle man. He got almost 9 DNPs and a bunch of losses before the coach wised up on this.

shelden williams started for denver because of injuries. i mean, are you typing that with a straight face?

roger mason once started 72 games for a spurs team that won 55 games. should d'antoni play him, too?

I didn't state Shelden's starting as a means to justify him as a viable option as a starter. I'm saying he managed to hold down a starting position on a playoff team, therefore he is good enough to NOT GET DNP'd PRACTICALLY 9 STRAIGHT GAMES on a team lacking front court presence.

Mason got his shot early on...D'AnToni went to him ASAP. He got it based on cred/history but backcourt depth wasn't necessarily our biggest weakness.

martin wrote:

Juice wrote:Mason got his shot early on...D'AnToni went to him ASAP. He got it based on cred/history but backcourt depth wasn't necessarily our biggest weakness.

as did Moz and AR. what's your point?

Youngsters vs Vets.

You know what a vet is and what he should bring....the other two were practically rookies and needed development/patience. They were bigs(we needed this desperately especially since Shawne didn't play until late December) and Mason wasn't. D'AnToni tried to turn them into (David Lee/Tim Thomas) instead of telling them to focus on rebounding/blocking shots(Chris Andersen/Ibaka...use up fouls) forget about scoring it will come as you learn the offense. But in his system the players have incredible offensive freedom....no you can't put every player under the same umbrella just like a parent can't discipline/teach each kid the same way. Randolph needed structure not freedom....Mozgov needed confidence....when I saw Moz shooting jumpers a la Lee Frye it was apparent he wasn't going to succeed in that role. Play bigs and develop them real simple stuff

CashMoney wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Juice wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Juice wrote:What part of Shelden is now being discussed as a possible starting center for the playoffs by this coach as part of exhibit 1-Z-## of his EXTREME method of operation don't you understand

A guy can go from DNP city to starting position in the playoffs much like Mozgov got DNPd like 12-16gms straight then when Shawne Williams the sure fire starting center gets suspended he plays Moz 40min at first crack off of DNP city

EXTREME no balance, no principle....COACH BY FEEL or COACH BY JOHNNY COME LATELY or COACH BY LOSSES PILING UP I MUST MAKE SOME KIND OF CHANGE

I already acknowledged Turiaf's situation by using the word Vitality(Life-Health) lack thereof which you quoted a couple posts ago. At the same time I can find about 6-8gms this year where he just kept him on the bench inexplicably early on...when Vital.

When a coach doesn't have great options you see players go in and out of the rotation. When you have a solid player they stay in their spot and become solid rotation players. If we had a serious option at C we wouldn't see any changes there. Mike is trying to make the best of a bad situation. Look at the options we have and what makes you think any of these guys is capable of being a reliable starting C and lock down the position? Turiaf has never been able to show he can play starter minutes, Shelden is a career bench player and only played due to injury, Jared never got off the bench in Houston. I mean come on man, get real.

Part of the problem..... he's never tried to establish a traditional lineup since he's been here. When he's had bigs, he didn't want to play them. The only position

Williams started 32 of 42 games for Denver, who were in playoff contention. It was apparent he should have got into the rotation quickly. You know the guy who played with Melo. We needed size he gives us a little of it more than Effries and more than Williams and more than Turiaf for a middle man. He got almost 9 DNPs and a bunch of losses before the coach wised up on this.

What bigs didn't play??

Apparently we've got Hakeem, Ewing and Shaq sitting on the bench. God forbid we have doubts about Shelden Williams as our starting C.

Yup. Shelden is 6'9, I guess that qualifies him as "big." I mean why would MDA be cautious staring a 6'9 dude at center? I think you'd have to coach by feel and matchups when you don't have a center.

Thats why. To say he is good enough to start on Denver he is good enough here.

Denver has a center. His name is NeNe. They have a back up center, he is a colorful Birdman.

Sheldon is a power forward. Our is named Amear. He is an allstar. He plays 38 min. Thats 10 min for others to get.

Trying to weave in Melo and Billups is one thing. Trying to weave in every player is another. Not always prudent.

Why is it when a player starts to do well MDA gets no credit for getting him ready and the assumption is he was ready all along?

MDA wants to win. Why would he not be open winning?

BigSm00th wrote:until MDA begins to emphasize defense and the knicks become not just a better but a top defensive team, the knicks will not be in the championship conversation.

the other contentions --
A) that he emphasizes offense over defense so much so that he doesn't play guys who are one-dimensional defensively (EX: corey brewer), only one dimensional offensively (EX: billy walker, jon bender, et al), and then bemoans the fact that his team is defensively inept because he doesn't have good defenders -- some fail to see the circularity of his argument, it seems obvious enough to me,
B) that he doesn't develop young guys properly (beyond this year and the mishandling of anthony randolph, his reluctance to play younger guys in his first two seasons was baffling and inexplicable)
C) that he's stubborn (hence players falling into his doghouse and taking months to get out)
D) that he doesn't communicate well with the players (mcgrady said as much, frank isola on an ESPN podcast said thats his perception around the league, not to mention that players routinely act miffed as to why they are on the bench and not part of his 7-man rotation)
E) that melo doesn't fit particularly well into his offense, or that having two great scorers makes the need for his great offensive system almost redundant, etc

-- all of the above reasons take a backseat to the fact he has been a coach for six seasons in the NBA and never has he coached a good defensive team. former players INCLUDING AMARE have bashed his approach as a coach and say that he doesn't emphasize Defense enough.

FACT: a coach that doesn't have a clue or doesn't care (not sure which it is) to coach D and emphasize D as a foundation of the team will not have championship-level success in the nba. i challenge anyone to offer an exception to this rule.

yes, this is somewhat of a lost year given the lack of depth. yes, MDA is an offensive innovator and may be one of the most influential coaches of the last 10 years because of his offensive system. he has yet to show any improvement into how he coaches the defensive aspect of the game. the knicks routinely are on the wrong side of opponents individually having career nights and opposing teams as a whole having incredible offensive games.

without any improvement on D, the knicks won't come close to even the conference finals. if they make it interesting in the playoffs and manage to win a few games or even a round, sure, i'm willing to see what he can do with a more competent roster next year. that being said, how he can be the right coach for a team with championship level aspirations when 6 seasons worth of evidence indicate he coaches bad defensive teams and defense wins championships?

Corey Brewer is a bad example. The guy is a SF and who in the heck would he have played over anyway? Mishandling of AR? Just becuase the guy is putting up a few numbers for the Wolves doesn't mean much. If the kid is slacking in practice why reward him with playing time?

MDA doesn'r care about defense yet he talks about it all the time? Players have career games against us becuase we're soft in the the middle. The Knicks will improve on D when then get fill the holes that they have on D.

All of MDA's Suns weren't defensive juggernauts but they were in the middle of the pack each year. I loved JVG when he was here but when he coached the Knicks couldn't score even though we had one of the best defensive teams in the league.

What wins Championships is a mix of offense and defense. The guy did take a team to the Western Conference Finals.