Chandler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Chandler wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Chandler wrote:who do you think the best player is in the draft, and who is the best pick for Knicks who might reasonably be at 8

I don't think the Knicks can or will trade up.

If the Knicks hold their draft position, they should take Saddiq Bey out of Villanova. He's projected to range around 11-14, so it would be a bit of reach. Some projections have him going as far as 18-20. I think the former is a more realistic range. I want to be fair in that he does not represent the best value for the draft slot ( 8th vs 11-14) but I still think he will be the best player in the entire class. Also I want to be fair that I have an inherent bias for high floor locked in fundamental players. Villanova has a refined process and they churn out very projectible prospects. Bey has everything you both want and need to win playoff games, he's just not very sexy on tape.

If Onyeka Okongwu is still on the board at 8th, though I doubt it, he's maybe the one player if he slips into Tier 2, that teams might be willing to trade up for to get. In that case, the Knicks should try to talk to Boston to trade back to 14 and also pick up 26 and 30. At 14, Bey might still be there. If not, World Wide Wes would push for Maxey. If Bey is off the board and the Knicks can trade back, Tyrese Maxey would be the best value pick.

I would say Jon Givony is the most wired in of the established mock drafts and he has Precious Achiuwa as a riser. There's a very small chance he, or Patrick Williams, could reset the board before 8th and cause a player to fall. I highly doubt it though.

Unless something bizarre happens like Wiseman freefalling, I think the Knicks end up holding their draft position and draft Devin Vassell. I think that's what will happen. I wouldn't draft him there personally.

TL/DR

Best player in the class - Saddiq Bey
Who I'd pick at 8th - Saddiq Bey
Who I'd pick at 12-15 if the Knicks could trade back - Bey, then Maxey
Who I think the Knicks will end up with in reality - Devin Vassell

Can i ask another question please? I'm a big believer in the notion that there is a lot of smoke and planted hype on guys essentially to cause the dumb teams to continue to make dumb picks AND vice versa planting stories to make better players drop -- e.g., D. Mitchell can't shoot. People do that in the business world all the time so i don't see why sports would be different.

ANy insights one way or the other on this and if true are there good examples in this draft. For example, I keep hearing stories how Obi can't do this or that and secretly am wondering if it's BS and whether we're looking at Amar'e 2.0. COnversely, people are talking up Deni A even though he's shooting FT at 55%?

Fair question to ask about Deni. His spot up and three point shooting did improve as the season went in. The free throw shooting is a red flag, but I don't think it's as big of one when you consider his other shooting improvements. Could be he just needs more reps. As for Donovan, he was a really spotty shooter at Louisville. I mentioned in another thread that his shooting numbers were similar to Cole Anthony's. This is case where you have to look at a team's schemes, personnel and analytics to filter out the noise. As for Obi, the eye test speaks for itself. He truly was horrendous as a defender. The questions are if this is just a question of technique or if he's just to stiff and slow laterally to ever make real improvements.

Regarding Deni 55% FT for a guy who is supposed to be a skill player is HUGE RED NEON FLAG.

Regarding the other comments I've heard those critiques but wonder if that's all part of the disinformation campaign. E.g., yes Mitchell may have been spotty, but also yes he'll have more space to drive, is a superior athlete and his shot was fixable. And I've heard that about Obi but the same was true for Amar'e and the real question may be is he net positive or not if he can punish his opponent at the other end

I have similar questions for Okoro because 6'6" is a strange size for NBA and not sure how to think of a 6'6" bully who can't shoot

Those are the things you have to figure out. For every Donovan Mitchell there's a DSJ. You have to trust the scouts. As for Deni, his passing and shot creation also get a big thumbs up. Again, the eye test tells you he can play. You just have to determine if the free throws are something that can be fixed. It's the same question you have with RJ. I don't think it's out of the question that Deni can become decent. As for Okoro, he's a plus athlete for a wing. Some would argue he's the best athlete in the draft. He can bully guys and he can also flat out run past them and elevate. The size just adds to his potential to guard and play inside.

TripleThreat wrote:

Chandler wrote:who do you think the best player is in the draft, and who is the best pick for Knicks who might reasonably be at 8

I don't think the Knicks can or will trade up.

If the Knicks hold their draft position, they should take Saddiq Bey out of Villanova. He's projected to range around 11-14, so it would be a bit of reach. Some projections have him going as far as 18-20. I think the former is a more realistic range. I want to be fair in that he does not represent the best value for the draft slot ( 8th vs 11-14) but I still think he will be the best player in the entire class. Also I want to be fair that I have an inherent bias for high floor locked in fundamental players. Villanova has a refined process and they churn out very projectible prospects. Bey has everything you both want and need to win playoff games, he's just not very sexy on tape.

If Onyeka Okongwu is still on the board at 8th, though I doubt it, he's maybe the one player if he slips into Tier 2, that teams might be willing to trade up for to get. In that case, the Knicks should try to talk to Boston to trade back to 14 and also pick up 26 and 30. At 14, Bey might still be there. If not, World Wide Wes would push for Maxey. If Bey is off the board and the Knicks can trade back, Tyrese Maxey would be the best value pick.

I would say Jon Givony is the most wired in of the established mock drafts and he has Precious Achiuwa as a riser. There's a very small chance he, or Patrick Williams, could reset the board before 8th and cause a player to fall. I highly doubt it though.

Unless something bizarre happens like Wiseman freefalling, I think the Knicks end up holding their draft position and draft Devin Vassell. I think that's what will happen. I wouldn't draft him there personally.

TL/DR

Best player in the class - Saddiq Bey
Who I'd pick at 8th - Saddiq Bey
Who I'd pick at 12-15 if the Knicks could trade back - Bey, then Maxey
Who I think the Knicks will end up with in reality - Devin Vassell

I thought you were high on Vassell previously? Why the switch or why Saddiq over Vassell?

TripleThreat wrote:I made a post on where the consensus of established mock drafts would have the Knicks select. They picked Vassell in aggregate. ( Consensus mocks didn't start happening until Vivek Ranadive entered the league's ownership structure. Some of his methodology is based on James Surowiecki's Wisdom Of Crowds - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds )

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=61239

I've always had Saddiq Bey as the main target

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=61157

? I guess my underlying was why you would pick Saddiq over Vassell if both were available

martin wrote: I guess my underlying was why you would pick Saddiq over Vassell if both were available

Quite a bit to like about Vassell. He's probably the best pure 3 And D candidate in this class. But I see him as a Tier 2 type 3 and D wing. I don't see him ever being able to consistently create his own shot. He's a very smart player, a disciplined defender and he plays to his strengths. He knows his limitations and stays away from them. I don't see him ever being able to get to the rim and finishing there consistently at the next level. I don't think he has outstanding athleticism but it's better than Beys. He's a good player and if the Knicks had an extra pick a little later than their range, I'd say he'd be a solid grab. I guess the question extends if I like him more than Maxey or not. I like Maxey better but that's probably a deeper more complex discussion for later.

Bey is very fundamental. His pathway to success is longer and shorter than Vassell. Longer in that Vassell has better individual skills on paper. Shorter in that teams tend ignore simplicity in development. Bey will need fewer immediate adjustments than Vassell to realize the greater exponential return across his entire game. This causes teams to lose the intangible factor when starting the evaluation process by eliminating individual traits against a checklist. For example, scouts won't like Bey's overall athleticism. They'll look at that before they look at how he operates in the 4th quarter under duress with his decision making impacting game flow. Bey makes the right decision at the right time. He does it when he's running hot, when he's running cold, when he's covered, when he's open, early game, late game, clutch moments, garbage time, etc. Vassell understands how to use his individual space. Bey understands how to use everyone's space. His situational awareness is strong enough to know when to pace down and be deliberate. A lot of scouts will see a guy who can't explode, I see a guy who is intentionally optimizing being completely disruptive. I don't think that can be taught.

I'm looking at playoff style basketball. Each possession is more critical. Matchups become more paramount. Guys will play injured versus not. Rotations shrink. Ball security is more important. Team synergy becomes a larger X factor. Execution late in the shot clock has exponential returns. Bey will help you win playoff games. He needs work, he needs the high end gear that he's only going to get at the NBA level. But the core building blocks are there. He has an NBA body already, needs refinement, but the baseline is there. Excellent footwork. Strong core. Innate understanding of how to use his size and length. Some will nitpick his release but he profiles out as a good long range shooter, across all types, projected against NBA level cover. There's a nice mix of open resentment and fury in his demeanor.

He doesn't look sexy on tape, but this guy just helps you win because he understands how to weaponize timing, space and chaos.

Devin Vassell is the safe high school girlfriend your parents like. Saddiq Bey is the bitch you marry.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/krispursiainen/status/1313242697872953346

martin wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/NBADraftWass/status/1313854082994577414

The thing is, that will change in the NBA if he does not develop a 3 point shot or a consistent jumper. That's my number one concern with Okoro. The Knicks desperately need someone who can space the floor with their shooting ability and with Okoro thats a big question mark.

As far as Vassell it seems to be the opposite. The biggest concern is lack of elite athleticism and ability to create his own shot or serve as a playmaker for others.

This makes guys like Haliburton, Hayes, Lewis Jr. (all PGs), and Avdija (if he falls) great fits for the Knicks (IMO).

Now, if a guy like Toppin slides down to the Knicks you definitely have to consider him and if all of these guys are gone and Okoro and Vassell are the only options you certainly consider them before reaching for a less talented player. BUT, I personally think you target a top tier PG at 8 b/c there should be a good scoring forward prospect available at 27 if thats the position you want to address.

TripleThreat wrote:

martin wrote: I guess my underlying was why you would pick Saddiq over Vassell if both were available

Quite a bit to like about Vassell. He's probably the best pure 3 And D candidate in this class. But I see him as a Tier 2 type 3 and D wing. I don't see him ever being able to consistently create his own shot. He's a very smart player, a disciplined defender and he plays to his strengths. He knows his limitations and stays away from them. I don't see him ever being able to get to the rim and finishing there consistently at the next level. I don't think he has outstanding athleticism but it's better than Beys. He's a good player and if the Knicks had an extra pick a little later than their range, I'd say he'd be a solid grab. I guess the question extends if I like him more than Maxey or not. I like Maxey better but that's probably a deeper more complex discussion for later.

Bey is very fundamental. His pathway to success is longer and shorter than Vassell. Longer in that Vassell has better individual skills on paper. Shorter in that teams tend ignore simplicity in development. Bey will need fewer immediate adjustments than Vassell to realize the greater exponential return across his entire game. This causes teams to lose the intangible factor when starting the evaluation process by eliminating individual traits against a checklist. For example, scouts won't like Bey's overall athleticism. They'll look at that before they look at how he operates in the 4th quarter under duress with his decision making impacting game flow. Bey makes the right decision at the right time. He does it when he's running hot, when he's running cold, when he's covered, when he's open, early game, late game, clutch moments, garbage time, etc. Vassell understands how to use his individual space. Bey understands how to use everyone's space. His situational awareness is strong enough to know when to pace down and be deliberate. A lot of scouts will see a guy who can't explode, I see a guy who is intentionally optimizing being completely disruptive. I don't think that can be taught.

I'm looking at playoff style basketball. Each possession is more critical. Matchups become more paramount. Guys will play injured versus not. Rotations shrink. Ball security is more important. Team synergy becomes a larger X factor. Execution late in the shot clock has exponential returns. Bey will help you win playoff games. He needs work, he needs the high end gear that he's only going to get at the NBA level. But the core building blocks are there. He has an NBA body already, needs refinement, but the baseline is there. Excellent footwork. Strong core. Innate understanding of how to use his size and length. Some will nitpick his release but he profiles out as a good long range shooter, across all types, projected against NBA level cover. There's a nice mix of open resentment and fury in his demeanor.

He doesn't look sexy on tape, but this guy just helps you win because he understands how to weaponize timing, space and chaos.

Devin Vassell is the safe high school girlfriend your parents like. Saddiq Bey is the bitch you marry.

I think I called out Saddiq Bey as our draft pick first on the board BUT Aaron Nesmith is an Nba all world caliber shooter and beys lack of athleticism make it a no brainer. Vessel ok but he’s not pick 8

BRIGGS wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

martin wrote: I guess my underlying was why you would pick Saddiq over Vassell if both were available

Quite a bit to like about Vassell. He's probably the best pure 3 And D candidate in this class. But I see him as a Tier 2 type 3 and D wing. I don't see him ever being able to consistently create his own shot. He's a very smart player, a disciplined defender and he plays to his strengths. He knows his limitations and stays away from them. I don't see him ever being able to get to the rim and finishing there consistently at the next level. I don't think he has outstanding athleticism but it's better than Beys. He's a good player and if the Knicks had an extra pick a little later than their range, I'd say he'd be a solid grab. I guess the question extends if I like him more than Maxey or not. I like Maxey better but that's probably a deeper more complex discussion for later.

Bey is very fundamental. His pathway to success is longer and shorter than Vassell. Longer in that Vassell has better individual skills on paper. Shorter in that teams tend ignore simplicity in development. Bey will need fewer immediate adjustments than Vassell to realize the greater exponential return across his entire game. This causes teams to lose the intangible factor when starting the evaluation process by eliminating individual traits against a checklist. For example, scouts won't like Bey's overall athleticism. They'll look at that before they look at how he operates in the 4th quarter under duress with his decision making impacting game flow. Bey makes the right decision at the right time. He does it when he's running hot, when he's running cold, when he's covered, when he's open, early game, late game, clutch moments, garbage time, etc. Vassell understands how to use his individual space. Bey understands how to use everyone's space. His situational awareness is strong enough to know when to pace down and be deliberate. A lot of scouts will see a guy who can't explode, I see a guy who is intentionally optimizing being completely disruptive. I don't think that can be taught.

I'm looking at playoff style basketball. Each possession is more critical. Matchups become more paramount. Guys will play injured versus not. Rotations shrink. Ball security is more important. Team synergy becomes a larger X factor. Execution late in the shot clock has exponential returns. Bey will help you win playoff games. He needs work, he needs the high end gear that he's only going to get at the NBA level. But the core building blocks are there. He has an NBA body already, needs refinement, but the baseline is there. Excellent footwork. Strong core. Innate understanding of how to use his size and length. Some will nitpick his release but he profiles out as a good long range shooter, across all types, projected against NBA level cover. There's a nice mix of open resentment and fury in his demeanor.

He doesn't look sexy on tape, but this guy just helps you win because he understands how to weaponize timing, space and chaos.

Devin Vassell is the safe high school girlfriend your parents like. Saddiq Bey is the bitch you marry.

I think I called out Saddiq Bey as our draft pick first on the board BUT Aaron Nesmith is an Nba all world caliber shooter and beys lack of athleticism make it a no brainer. Vessel ok but he’s not pick 8

You called out EVERY possible draft pick in this years draft. Lol. Your biggest pick was Nesmith. Some of us preferred Vassell or to trade down and get guys like Bey, Bane or Maxey.

Think we need to stop going away from what is successful. We need players that CAN SHOOT. Most teams that have done well have 3 or 4 of those type of players on the floor at all times. Think once we have shooters we can allow the "Role" defensive player and the "Defensive" big that can protect the rim to be part of the lineup. I really do hope we trade down and get multiple shooters in the draft. Like Bey but also think Bane, Nesmith, Darling, Joe, Terry or Pritchard have as much shot of making the transition into an NBA shooter. Would also be okay with picking up Maxey with one of those later picks. I hope the Knicks then go and sign VV. Think he would be worth the money. not sure how the FO sees him in terms of value. If they do not want to pay then hopefully they can get someone that is proven and more affordable, ie. Dragic. Or Even a guy like Augustin. Who shot above 40% from three a year ago and will probably cost very little. Would also like if we picked up more shooting in free agency. Bodganovic, Bertans, Harris and Morris are some I feel we should sign. Think by adding shooters you make your entire roster play better.

TripleThreat wrote:

martin wrote: I guess my underlying was why you would pick Saddiq over Vassell if both were available

Quite a bit to like about Vassell. He's probably the best pure 3 And D candidate in this class. But I see him as a Tier 2 type 3 and D wing. I don't see him ever being able to consistently create his own shot. He's a very smart player, a disciplined defender and he plays to his strengths. He knows his limitations and stays away from them. I don't see him ever being able to get to the rim and finishing there consistently at the next level. I don't think he has outstanding athleticism but it's better than Beys. He's a good player and if the Knicks had an extra pick a little later than their range, I'd say he'd be a solid grab. I guess the question extends if I like him more than Maxey or not. I like Maxey better but that's probably a deeper more complex discussion for later.

Bey is very fundamental. His pathway to success is longer and shorter than Vassell. Longer in that Vassell has better individual skills on paper. Shorter in that teams tend ignore simplicity in development. Bey will need fewer immediate adjustments than Vassell to realize the greater exponential return across his entire game. This causes teams to lose the intangible factor when starting the evaluation process by eliminating individual traits against a checklist. For example, scouts won't like Bey's overall athleticism. They'll look at that before they look at how he operates in the 4th quarter under duress with his decision making impacting game flow. Bey makes the right decision at the right time. He does it when he's running hot, when he's running cold, when he's covered, when he's open, early game, late game, clutch moments, garbage time, etc. Vassell understands how to use his individual space. Bey understands how to use everyone's space. His situational awareness is strong enough to know when to pace down and be deliberate. A lot of scouts will see a guy who can't explode, I see a guy who is intentionally optimizing being completely disruptive. I don't think that can be taught.

I'm looking at playoff style basketball. Each possession is more critical. Matchups become more paramount. Guys will play injured versus not. Rotations shrink. Ball security is more important. Team synergy becomes a larger X factor. Execution late in the shot clock has exponential returns. Bey will help you win playoff games. He needs work, he needs the high end gear that he's only going to get at the NBA level. But the core building blocks are there. He has an NBA body already, needs refinement, but the baseline is there. Excellent footwork. Strong core. Innate understanding of how to use his size and length. Some will nitpick his release but he profiles out as a good long range shooter, across all types, projected against NBA level cover. There's a nice mix of open resentment and fury in his demeanor.

He doesn't look sexy on tape, but this guy just helps you win because he understands how to weaponize timing, space and chaos.

Devin Vassell is the safe high school girlfriend your parents like. Saddiq Bey is the bitch you marry.

Latest Ringer mock has us taking Halliburton at 8 with Vassell going to the Suns, Saddiq Bey falling all the way to the Blazers at 14.

Consolation: We get the OTHER Bey (Tyler) at 27.

I don't know much about any of these players but coming away with any two players who can be described as

a) good shooters
b) high basketball IQ = at least know what they're supposed to do on D

seems like a win to me.

From my limited reading I'd be equally as happy with Saddiq Bey/Patrick Williams/Tyrell Terry/Nesmith/Kira at 8