nyk4ever wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

Those guys actually did it in a way that helped their teams win though (efficient scoring and/or a strong impact on both ends of the court). How many games these past years have we won where Melo scored 30 to 40? Those guys also could do this and pile up the assists - they weren't neglecting their teammates.
Harden gets 30 to 40 with remarkable efficiency due to his FT shooting. Westbrook and Kobe were able to get 30 to 40 with reasonably good efficiency and still save enough energy for outstanding defense and they were good at setting their teammates up. (And I shouldn't even need to explain MJ.)
The concern with Melo is that when he talks about a reduced role on offense, he's probably thinking taking 18 shots a game instead of 20. I've never seen him take a seriously reduced role. The best thing he could do would be take 12 or 13 high quality shots a game and then use his passing skills to improve his teammates, and save his energy for defense. He actually can be an excellent passer and good defender when he wants to be. The problem is not with his skills - it's his approach to the game. This hasn't changed in the past 14 years.

Well we can compare rosters position for position, you really want o go there???

Melo has had enough all-stars, award-winning teammates (DPOY, MVP candidate) that he should have been able to do much better than he has. Of course teammates matter but no, I will not say this is 100% due to his teammates or even close to that. Teammates can never be an excuse for poor shot selection and poor defense. As long as you have guys who can make a layup you should not be chucking off-balance mid range shots with 15 left on the shot clock.

????..Who, name them!!!

Are you serious? Are you actually watching? Billups, Stoudemire, Tyson, Iverson. Most teams don't have two all-stars but he has had an all-star teammate many seasons. And he's had plenty of competent non-all-star teammates too. He's had enough support that if he actually used his skill set intelligently (on both ends of the court), his teams would have done much better than .300 or so in the playoffs and .500 in the regular season. (I'm just estimating the career winning percentages.) He's had a max contract skill set with a poor mindset his whole career.

Hahaha...You are joking Bonn...You spin everything you type...You are in a world of spin to suit your argument...You spin every stat you want to promote like +/-...When will you get serious...I'm not going to waste my time telling Amare was injured which you know and Iverson was old...If you want a serious discussion, don't act like I'm an idiot..

And Melo got to the WCF with Billups...

You want to talk about Melo and playoffs? Sorry... this is all you need to know:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45742

So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.
Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum
I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.
These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5
Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.
His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24
What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.
Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.
To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.
Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?
Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

Been there, done that... holfesh is still hanging onto an Isiah comeback.

Sorry... Melo's abysmal playoff record is directly related to his poor play.

What about Chris Paul's? He's never even made the conference finals and he's had much better teammates than Melo and some consider him the best point guard of all time.

Melo is what he is. Anyone expecting him to magically turn into a point forward with great court vision and passing skills is delusional. His best season here? Woodson accepted what he was. Melo had a career low assist percentage. Knicks won 54 games. They "needed him to score 30 or 40" every night and he did and led the league in scoring.

These hissy fits you guys throw where you can't accept that Melo is a scorer are just getting sad. You know why he's not as good as he used to be? He's 33! He's been in the league 14 years! He's old. Jesus, you guys are a bunch of cry babies. Sure, it's all Melo's fault. Phil has valiantly been the best gm in the league and would've done great if it weren't for Melo. Gimme a ****in break.

You wanna compare Melo to Lebron or Harden? How about we compare Phil's gm record to Pat Riley's? Crickets, right?

i'm kinda jumping in on this, so sorry for doing that. but.... how come when we talk about melo and his faults, you bring up phil? melo's track record (here and elsewhere) dates long before phil entered the equation.

Because Melo was doing pretty well before Phil showed up. And the thread is called partially "Melo doesn't get it" with the "it" being the implied resistance to the holy triangle.

Okay - if you want to compare careers - how about we compare Melo's to Chris Paul's? When was the last time Chris Paul led his team out of the second round? Never. Melo is what he is - which is a Bernard King, Dominique Wilkins, Tracy McGrady type scorer. Anyone expecting him to be anything different or suddenly transform into a playmaking point forward has some misunderstanding about basketball.

And I'm sorry, the Riley comparison is valid. You know what Riley did when he wasn't happy with how the Heat were being coached? He coached them the way he wanted them to be coached and won a championship doing so. Then he installed his top assistant and let him figure it out through some dark seasons. Heat won 15 games one year and mistakenly drafted Michael Beaseley. And Riley stuck with his coach. What's Spoelstra now? The second longest tenured coach in the NBA behind Pop?

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

Nothing silly about it. Its basically Melos career in a nutshell. It's the reason why he's never won much. I like Melo but I'm not gonna be mindless with it. It's time to move on from this not spend time arguing about it.

I find it ironic when someone comes to a discussion board to tell everyone, "I would respond thought fully but I'm not going to waste my time." It's kind of like joining a gym just for the food and saying "I would use the exercise equipment but I'm not going to waste my time"

We can have a discussion..Will you admit Amare was injured his last 3 years as a Knick???..Will you admit Tyson was not DPOY that year and DHow should have been???..No yopu will never admit to those things because it doesn't suit your argument..SPIN...

I had a feeling you'd basically trash all of the players I listed. You mentioned Ewing before. He had an all-star teammate only once in his entire prime and twice in his 17 seasons but he still took his teams far. Melo's teams basically go around .600 if you surround him with very good teammates and around .400 if you surround him with bad ones. You know what that sounds like? A low impact chucker.
Regarding the plus minus stat, I include it because of its simplicity. I do think looking at win shares and the player tracking data (especially for defense) is better. But I've never said you should ignore the +/- stats for any player.

Bonn you alway do this...You act like the fact you present are in a vacuum and it's the only factors that affect what you are focused on...How on Earth can you compare Ewing situation to Melo..How on earth Bonn???????..Ewing had Pat Riley as a coach, one of the all time greats...Melo had 5 coaches in the last 6 years...You think that might be a factor??..Ewing ws on one of the all time great defensive teams, You think that might be a factor??..Ewing played with essentially the same core for years upon years, you think that might be a factor?? Ewibng knew what to expect from his front office and the style of play didn't change twice per season, you think that might be a factor???

Was Amare hurt the final three years as a Knick which impacted his career permanently??? You never answered in your lengthy response... Who ws the better defender the year Tyson won DPOY, Tyson or DHow???..Again, You never answered...

Coach's during Ewings time with knicks

Hubie Brown
Bob Hill
Rick Pitino
Stu Jackson
John McCloud
Pat Riley
Don Nelson
Jeff Van Gundy.

Lets be accurate when we romance the past. Not saying Melo or ewing ate all his coaches. Do we only count the games Riley and JVG coached?

Riley coached Ewing for 4 years...Woodson coach him what 2.5 years??

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

Nothing silly about it. Its basically Melos career in a nutshell. It's the reason why he's never won much. I like Melo but I'm not gonna be mindless with it. It's time to move on from this not spend time arguing about it.

I find it ironic when someone comes to a discussion board to tell everyone, "I would respond thought fully but I'm not going to waste my time." It's kind of like joining a gym just for the food and saying "I would use the exercise equipment but I'm not going to waste my time"

We can have a discussion..Will you admit Amare was injured his last 3 years as a Knick???..Will you admit Tyson was not DPOY that year and DHow should have been???..No yopu will never admit to those things because it doesn't suit your argument..SPIN...

I had a feeling you'd basically trash all of the players I listed. You mentioned Ewing before. He had an all-star teammate only once in his entire prime and twice in his 17 seasons but he still took his teams far. Melo's teams basically go around .600 if you surround him with very good teammates and around .400 if you surround him with bad ones. You know what that sounds like? A low impact chucker.
Regarding the plus minus stat, I include it because of its simplicity. I do think looking at win shares and the player tracking data (especially for defense) is better. But I've never said you should ignore the +/- stats for any player.

Bonn you alway do this...You act like the fact you present are in a vacuum and it's the only factors that affect what you are focused on...How on Earth can you compare Ewing situation to Melo..How on earth Bonn???????..Ewing had Pat Riley as a coach, one of the all time greats...Melo had 5 coaches in the last 6 years...You think that might be a factor??..Ewing ws on one of the all time great defensive teams, You think that might be a factor??..Ewing played with essentially the same core for years upon years, you think that might be a factor?? Ewibng knew what to expect from his front office and the style of play didn't change twice per season, you think that might be a factor???

Was Amare hurt the final three years as a Knick which impacted his career permanently??? You never answered in your lengthy response... Who ws the better defender the year Tyson won DPOY, Tyson or DHow???..Again, You never answered...

I was talking specifically about the all-star year of Amare. He was still pretty good when Melo was here that year. You're arguing Tyson was the 2nd best rather than the best defensive player? I'm not gonna nitpick about each teammate Melo has had. That's just silly. (And you're actually the one who brought Ewing into this.) The bottom line is that if you surround Melo with pretty good teammates, you'll have a .600 or slightly higher team. If you surround him with bad ones, a .400 or slightly lower team. That just doesn't impress me. It sounds like a low impact player. (Or really any random non-super star would probably be .600 with good teammates and .400 with bad ones.)

Amare was never healthy when playing with Melo..Amare got hurt around the all star break, right around the trade...I wasn't sure if it was the back or the knee...He wasn't able to play in the playoffs because of his back..Remember Marv Albert's call during a playoff game, "Melo is out there with 4 guys" against Boston???Amare never played...

Tyson wasn't second best either...Was LeBron alive that year, he was better too..If you push, I'm sure I can come up with as leave 5 other better defensive players..

You won't nitpick because its comical...

Tyson was the best Knicks teammate Melo ever had. They won 54 games together. But even that season, Tyson disappeared in the playoffs with the sniffles. I loved Tyson but his annual playoffs disappearance was really bizarre. Of course in hindsight, the "true Knicks fans" blame Melo for Tyson disappearing.

Right, true to form, they blamed Melo for Tyson too during playoffs..

Melo didn't share his purell hand disinfectant with Tyson. He got what he deserved!!!

crzymdups wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

Those guys actually did it in a way that helped their teams win though (efficient scoring and/or a strong impact on both ends of the court). How many games these past years have we won where Melo scored 30 to 40? Those guys also could do this and pile up the assists - they weren't neglecting their teammates.
Harden gets 30 to 40 with remarkable efficiency due to his FT shooting. Westbrook and Kobe were able to get 30 to 40 with reasonably good efficiency and still save enough energy for outstanding defense and they were good at setting their teammates up. (And I shouldn't even need to explain MJ.)
The concern with Melo is that when he talks about a reduced role on offense, he's probably thinking taking 18 shots a game instead of 20. I've never seen him take a seriously reduced role. The best thing he could do would be take 12 or 13 high quality shots a game and then use his passing skills to improve his teammates, and save his energy for defense. He actually can be an excellent passer and good defender when he wants to be. The problem is not with his skills - it's his approach to the game. This hasn't changed in the past 14 years.

Well we can compare rosters position for position, you really want o go there???

Melo has had enough all-stars, award-winning teammates (DPOY, MVP candidate) that he should have been able to do much better than he has. Of course teammates matter but no, I will not say this is 100% due to his teammates or even close to that. Teammates can never be an excuse for poor shot selection and poor defense. As long as you have guys who can make a layup you should not be chucking off-balance mid range shots with 15 left on the shot clock.

????..Who, name them!!!

Are you serious? Are you actually watching? Billups, Stoudemire, Tyson, Iverson. Most teams don't have two all-stars but he has had an all-star teammate many seasons. And he's had plenty of competent non-all-star teammates too. He's had enough support that if he actually used his skill set intelligently (on both ends of the court), his teams would have done much better than .300 or so in the playoffs and .500 in the regular season. (I'm just estimating the career winning percentages.) He's had a max contract skill set with a poor mindset his whole career.

Hahaha...You are joking Bonn...You spin everything you type...You are in a world of spin to suit your argument...You spin every stat you want to promote like +/-...When will you get serious...I'm not going to waste my time telling Amare was injured which you know and Iverson was old...If you want a serious discussion, don't act like I'm an idiot..

And Melo got to the WCF with Billups...

You want to talk about Melo and playoffs? Sorry... this is all you need to know:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45742

So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.
Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum
I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.
These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5
Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.
His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24
What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.
Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.
To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.
Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?
Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

Been there, done that... holfesh is still hanging onto an Isiah comeback.

Sorry... Melo's abysmal playoff record is directly related to his poor play.

What about Chris Paul's? He's never even made the conference finals and he's had much better teammates than Melo and some consider him the best point guard of all time.

Melo is what he is. Anyone expecting him to magically turn into a point forward with great court vision and passing skills is delusional. His best season here? Woodson accepted what he was. Melo had a career low assist percentage. Knicks won 54 games. They "needed him to score 30 or 40" every night and he did and led the league in scoring.

These hissy fits you guys throw where you can't accept that Melo is a scorer are just getting sad. You know why he's not as good as he used to be? He's 33! He's been in the league 14 years! He's old. Jesus, you guys are a bunch of cry babies. Sure, it's all Melo's fault. Phil has valiantly been the best gm in the league and would've done great if it weren't for Melo. Gimme a ****in break.

You wanna compare Melo to Lebron or Harden? How about we compare Phil's gm record to Pat Riley's? Crickets, right?

i'm kinda jumping in on this, so sorry for doing that. but.... how come when we talk about melo and his faults, you bring up phil? melo's track record (here and elsewhere) dates long before phil entered the equation.

Because Melo was doing pretty well before Phil showed up. And the thread is called partially "Melo doesn't get it" with the "it" being the implied resistance to the holy triangle.

Okay - if you want to compare careers - how about we compare Melo's to Chris Paul's? When was the last time Chris Paul led his team out of the second round? Never. Melo is what he is - which is a Bernard King, Dominique Wilkins, Tracy McGrady type scorer. Anyone expecting him to be anything different or suddenly transform into a playmaking point forward has some misunderstanding about basketball.

And I'm sorry, the Riley comparison is valid. You know what Riley did when he wasn't happy with how the Heat were being coached? He coached them the way he wanted them to be coached and won a championship doing so. Then he installed his top assistant and let him figure it out through some dark seasons. Heat won 15 games one year and mistakenly drafted Michael Beaseley. And Riley stuck with his coach. What's Spoelstra now? The second longest tenured coach in the NBA behind Pop?

bro, i have no issue with phil-bashing if that's what you want to do - it's warranted because he hasn't done a good job here. yeah he's brought us kp/willy but overall he's done a **** job.

this is a discussion about melo though and in the middle of the conversation you're asking to compare phils gm record to riley's. i don't get what that has to do with melo. the rest of your post was relative to the discussion about cp3 and point-forward and this and that. but i will say, it's not completely unrealistic to ask melo to play a different way than he has his whole career since the way he's played his whole career, hasn't really gotten him anywhere, so it might have behooved him to change his stripes a bit. i hate jeremy linn, but let's be honest, the way melo handled the linn situation was not good. he was upset someone else was garnering the spotlight and i think that's a microcosm of melo's career. i like melo and i always have, but i wish that he did a little more here. he could have adapted better to both d'antoni and his current situation in the triangle, whether he/us/the team/media/whoever likes the offense. i don't think that's asking too much.

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

actually, funny you say that. the last time you said that to me, and i forget which thread it was now, but it was like a week ago? i responded directly to your post and what a surprise, you never answered. so maybe you should heed your own advice and holier than thou attitude.

and to be honest, if you "responded thoughtfully" (which btw is something you never do) you would be saying something negative about melo. so instead of doing that, you just deflect, to cover your own melo-loving ass. it's cool, we all see it man.

still waiting for a response holfresh. thanks. although, i dont think this surprises anyone. you deflect and run, every.single.time. but yet, i'm the one who "drops in" please. the irony is real.

I deflect and run, really??? Me??...Jokes...You and Bonn play these games..here goes..

Harden plays the PG role which is the most important role in MDA's offense..But you know this...Melo is not a PG..But you know this..Melo was asked to stand in the corner and shoot threes while playing with MDA..But you know this...So you asked how does Harden thrive in an MDA offense because he accepted his role and Melo wasn't a fit in MDA offense..Do you now understand why I think it's a dumb question/statement and not worth a response??...Bonn does stuff like that as well...

PG role and yet he even rebounds better than Melo! It's crazy to ever compare the two.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

actually, funny you say that. the last time you said that to me, and i forget which thread it was now, but it was like a week ago? i responded directly to your post and what a surprise, you never answered. so maybe you should heed your own advice and holier than thou attitude.

and to be honest, if you "responded thoughtfully" (which btw is something you never do) you would be saying something negative about melo. so instead of doing that, you just deflect, to cover your own melo-loving ass. it's cool, we all see it man.

still waiting for a response holfresh. thanks. although, i dont think this surprises anyone. you deflect and run, every.single.time. but yet, i'm the one who "drops in" please. the irony is real.

I deflect and run, really??? Me??...Jokes...You and Bonn play these games..here goes..

Harden plays the PG role which is the most important role in MDA's offense..But you know this...Melo is not a PG..But you know this..Melo was asked to stand in the corner and shoot threes while playing with MDA..But you know this...So you asked how does Harden thrive in an MDA offense because he accepted his role and Melo wasn't a fit in MDA offense..Do you now understand why I think it's a dumb question/statement and not worth a response??...Bonn does stuff like that as well...

PG role and yet he even rebounds better than Melo! It's crazy to ever compare the two.

Ok...Do you think they will get beyond the second round of the playoffs like Melo and Woodson in 2013??

nyk4ever wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

Those guys actually did it in a way that helped their teams win though (efficient scoring and/or a strong impact on both ends of the court). How many games these past years have we won where Melo scored 30 to 40? Those guys also could do this and pile up the assists - they weren't neglecting their teammates.
Harden gets 30 to 40 with remarkable efficiency due to his FT shooting. Westbrook and Kobe were able to get 30 to 40 with reasonably good efficiency and still save enough energy for outstanding defense and they were good at setting their teammates up. (And I shouldn't even need to explain MJ.)
The concern with Melo is that when he talks about a reduced role on offense, he's probably thinking taking 18 shots a game instead of 20. I've never seen him take a seriously reduced role. The best thing he could do would be take 12 or 13 high quality shots a game and then use his passing skills to improve his teammates, and save his energy for defense. He actually can be an excellent passer and good defender when he wants to be. The problem is not with his skills - it's his approach to the game. This hasn't changed in the past 14 years.

Well we can compare rosters position for position, you really want o go there???

Melo has had enough all-stars, award-winning teammates (DPOY, MVP candidate) that he should have been able to do much better than he has. Of course teammates matter but no, I will not say this is 100% due to his teammates or even close to that. Teammates can never be an excuse for poor shot selection and poor defense. As long as you have guys who can make a layup you should not be chucking off-balance mid range shots with 15 left on the shot clock.

????..Who, name them!!!

Are you serious? Are you actually watching? Billups, Stoudemire, Tyson, Iverson. Most teams don't have two all-stars but he has had an all-star teammate many seasons. And he's had plenty of competent non-all-star teammates too. He's had enough support that if he actually used his skill set intelligently (on both ends of the court), his teams would have done much better than .300 or so in the playoffs and .500 in the regular season. (I'm just estimating the career winning percentages.) He's had a max contract skill set with a poor mindset his whole career.

Hahaha...You are joking Bonn...You spin everything you type...You are in a world of spin to suit your argument...You spin every stat you want to promote like +/-...When will you get serious...I'm not going to waste my time telling Amare was injured which you know and Iverson was old...If you want a serious discussion, don't act like I'm an idiot..

And Melo got to the WCF with Billups...

You want to talk about Melo and playoffs? Sorry... this is all you need to know:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45742

So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.
Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum
I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.
These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5
Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.
His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24
What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.
Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.
To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.
Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?
Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

Been there, done that... holfesh is still hanging onto an Isiah comeback.

Sorry... Melo's abysmal playoff record is directly related to his poor play.

What about Chris Paul's? He's never even made the conference finals and he's had much better teammates than Melo and some consider him the best point guard of all time.

Melo is what he is. Anyone expecting him to magically turn into a point forward with great court vision and passing skills is delusional. His best season here? Woodson accepted what he was. Melo had a career low assist percentage. Knicks won 54 games. They "needed him to score 30 or 40" every night and he did and led the league in scoring.

These hissy fits you guys throw where you can't accept that Melo is a scorer are just getting sad. You know why he's not as good as he used to be? He's 33! He's been in the league 14 years! He's old. Jesus, you guys are a bunch of cry babies. Sure, it's all Melo's fault. Phil has valiantly been the best gm in the league and would've done great if it weren't for Melo. Gimme a ****in break.

You wanna compare Melo to Lebron or Harden? How about we compare Phil's gm record to Pat Riley's? Crickets, right?

i'm kinda jumping in on this, so sorry for doing that. but.... how come when we talk about melo and his faults, you bring up phil? melo's track record (here and elsewhere) dates long before phil entered the equation.

Because Melo was doing pretty well before Phil showed up. And the thread is called partially "Melo doesn't get it" with the "it" being the implied resistance to the holy triangle.

Okay - if you want to compare careers - how about we compare Melo's to Chris Paul's? When was the last time Chris Paul led his team out of the second round? Never. Melo is what he is - which is a Bernard King, Dominique Wilkins, Tracy McGrady type scorer. Anyone expecting him to be anything different or suddenly transform into a playmaking point forward has some misunderstanding about basketball.

And I'm sorry, the Riley comparison is valid. You know what Riley did when he wasn't happy with how the Heat were being coached? He coached them the way he wanted them to be coached and won a championship doing so. Then he installed his top assistant and let him figure it out through some dark seasons. Heat won 15 games one year and mistakenly drafted Michael Beaseley. And Riley stuck with his coach. What's Spoelstra now? The second longest tenured coach in the NBA behind Pop?

bro, i have no issue with phil-bashing if that's what you want to do - it's warranted because he hasn't done a good job here. yeah he's brought us kp/willy but overall he's done a **** job.

this is a discussion about melo though and in the middle of the conversation you're asking to compare phils gm record to riley's. i don't get what that has to do with melo. the rest of your post was relative to the discussion about cp3 and point-forward and this and that. but i will say, it's not completely unrealistic to ask melo to play a different way than he has his whole career since the way he's played his whole career, hasn't really gotten him anywhere, so it might have behooved him to change his stripes a bit. i hate jeremy linn, but let's be honest, the way melo handled the linn situation was not good. he was upset someone else was garnering the spotlight and i think that's a microcosm of melo's career. i like melo and i always have, but i wish that he did a little more here. he could have adapted better to both d'antoni and his current situation in the triangle, whether he/us/the team/media/whoever likes the offense. i don't think that's asking too much.

There's an MDA interview with Woj where MDA admits he should've benched Amar'e and put Melo at Pf. But he chickened out. Melo gets blamed for all sorts of crap that wasn't really his fault. The Lin situation, I blamed Melo for that at the time and the same people who are now blaming Melo were blaming Lin at the time! It's just an absurd circus of blame. I'm sick of it. I wish things had gone better while Melo was here, too. The Bargnani trade was a disaster. Was that Melo's fault? I don't know. That trade led to Glen Grunwald quitting or getting fired and the team has been a mess ever since. I don't know whose fault it is. I suspect Dolan was involved since Grunwald clearly didn't want to make that trade. Grunwald also literally tried to hide from the Rockets so he couldn't receive the offer sheet on Lin because he was trying to stall for time because he knew Dolan would be pissed and vindictive. Dolan is the one who didn't match the contract. So again, Dolan. And again Melo gets the blame.

Melo is not a perfect player. But he is a very good one. He's at the tail end of his career. But he gets blamed for a lot of the crap around here that is not on him. Was it Melo's fault that Rose went AWOL? Did Melo make Phil fire Fisher? Melo's supposed to be a point forward passing to... who exactly this season? Courtney Lee sulking on the perimeter? Noah in street clothes? He's passed to KP and KP's second season is right in line with Dirk's second season. Was Melo supposed to will KP to have Dirk's fourth season this year?

Melo is not Lebron. They were the same draft class, so I get the comparison. But he's just never been that guy and he never was going to be that guy. Maybe he should've stood up for Lin a little better? I liked Lin. But Lin also looked out for himself and didn't want to get embarrassed by Miami in the playoffs like they did when the heat single handedly ended Linsanity. And again, the Lin decision was Dolan throwing a hissy fit.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

actually, funny you say that. the last time you said that to me, and i forget which thread it was now, but it was like a week ago? i responded directly to your post and what a surprise, you never answered. so maybe you should heed your own advice and holier than thou attitude.

and to be honest, if you "responded thoughtfully" (which btw is something you never do) you would be saying something negative about melo. so instead of doing that, you just deflect, to cover your own melo-loving ass. it's cool, we all see it man.

still waiting for a response holfresh. thanks. although, i dont think this surprises anyone. you deflect and run, every.single.time. but yet, i'm the one who "drops in" please. the irony is real.

I deflect and run, really??? Me??...Jokes...You and Bonn play these games..here goes..

Harden plays the PG role which is the most important role in MDA's offense..But you know this...Melo is not a PG..But you know this..Melo was asked to stand in the corner and shoot threes while playing with MDA..But you know this...So you asked how does Harden thrive in an MDA offense because he accepted his role and Melo wasn't a fit in MDA offense..Do you now understand why I think it's a dumb question/statement and not worth a response??...Bonn does stuff like that as well...

PG role and yet he even rebounds better than Melo! It's crazy to ever compare the two.

Ok...Do you think they will get beyond the second round of the playoffs???

Sorry I was making that comment half-jokingly. I'm not sure. I think Harden brings much more to the table than Melo and I think Houston got a steal when they traded for him. But I'm still not the biggest Harden fan. He has his weaknesses and I'd have a lot of reluctance giving him a supermax contract. That said, in the east, I think Houston would make it to the conference finals most years. Not sure about in the west though.

It'd be hilarious to see Harden here, especially if he stopped getting all his baloney foul calls. Knicks fans would run him out of town for his lack of D. The same people screaming about Melo now would've been screaming about Harden last year when the Rockets disappointed and Harden admitted to being out of shape to start the season because he spent the summer ****ing a Kardashian.

Worth noting, one of Harden's best teammates is Trevor Ariza who was run out of town for being "delusional".

Y A W N

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

actually, funny you say that. the last time you said that to me, and i forget which thread it was now, but it was like a week ago? i responded directly to your post and what a surprise, you never answered. so maybe you should heed your own advice and holier than thou attitude.

and to be honest, if you "responded thoughtfully" (which btw is something you never do) you would be saying something negative about melo. so instead of doing that, you just deflect, to cover your own melo-loving ass. it's cool, we all see it man.

still waiting for a response holfresh. thanks. although, i dont think this surprises anyone. you deflect and run, every.single.time. but yet, i'm the one who "drops in" please. the irony is real.

I deflect and run, really??? Me??...Jokes...You and Bonn play these games..here goes..

Harden plays the PG role which is the most important role in MDA's offense..But you know this...Melo is not a PG..But you know this..Melo was asked to stand in the corner and shoot threes while playing with MDA..But you know this...So you asked how does Harden thrive in an MDA offense because he accepted his role and Melo wasn't a fit in MDA offense..Do you now understand why I think it's a dumb question/statement and not worth a response??...Bonn does stuff like that as well...

PG role and yet he even rebounds better than Melo! It's crazy to ever compare the two.

Ok...Do you think they will get beyond the second round of the playoffs???

Sorry I was making that comment half-jokingly. I'm not sure. I think Harden brings much more to the table than Melo and I think Houston got a steal when they traded for him. But I'm still not the biggest Harden fan. He has his weaknesses and I'd have a lot of reluctance giving him a supermax contract. That said, in the east, I think Houston would make it to the conference finals most years. Not sure about in the west though.

I know many here don't care...Harden plays zero defense..ZERO...Melo and Harden are volume scorers..They put up the same stats in their primes but Harden is a better assist guy..Harden is playing a different role with MDA..They will lose in the second round..Just like Melo..

The only time Knick fans care about defense is with regards to Melo and Rose...Everyone else not playing defense is fine with them...

I wouldn't agree with any of the claims you made there, but what exactly is your point? Melo is comparable to Harden - a guy who you're not a fan of?

Also, Melo's in his 14th season, 32 yrs old. Harden is in his 8th, 27yrs old. Is 27yr old Harden better than 32yr old Melo? Yes. Is this really shocking to you?