Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum

I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.

These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5

Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.

His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24

What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.

Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.

To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.

Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?

Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

too much to bear with bums around him,

year with billups --- go far

fishmike wrote:So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.

Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum

I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.

These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5

Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.

His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24

What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.

Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.

To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.

Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?

Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

thank you for doing due diligence and having an open mind... it's refreshing. you will see a similar overall pattern with his TS% i'm afraid.

fishmike wrote:So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.

Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum

I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.

These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5

Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.

His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24

What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.

Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.

To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.

Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?

Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

Melo's playoff performances as a Knick have been really disappointing. I thought these most recent playoffs it might be different, given his career year, but sure enough he played pretty much like he did in the other two playoffs.

In fairness, and putting it into context, year 1 Amar'e AND Billups went down (leaving us with complete crap!), so the defense could zero in on Melo. But then again, game 1 he played poorly and that was before those two got injured.

Year 2 we lost Lin, Baron Davis, Shump, Amar'e and Tyson was ill. And we were playing the Heat.

Year 3 we were playing a top defense in the Pacers, Melo was injured, and Amar'e, Tyson, and JR were shadows of their former selves. Man, i hate injuries! Can't we have a playoffs when we're at full strength?!- even going back to the time before that Tim Thomas and marbury got injured.

So I get that the context. But like your stats show, Melo seems to have been the same playoff performer regardless of the circumstances. He just hasn't played at an elite level in the playoffs. Sure he has a game or two where he goes into beast mode, but that usually seems to fall just short (Boston series, and Pacers series). It does make me wonder.

I'd like to see what happens if another Knick can step up and carry the scoring load, but I'm not sure we have someone capable of it.

Vmart wrote:

Melo likes hero ball. There are times when hero ball isn't the way to go and just being consistent all around player is what is required. Every game can't be beast mode he simple isn't a good enough shooter to do that. Consistent beast mode guys are players that shoot over 50% on a regular basis.

True, and I suppose thats why I don't blame Melo only- you look at the players he had round him in his playoffs as a Knick, and I don't really see the personel for effective team basketball, especially scoring wise.

fishmike wrote:smackeddog we dont have balance. If the 3s arent falling the offense is whatever Melo can get us.

At this point I toe the line. Mel has been set up for failure in the playoffs for sure, in terms of matchups, injuries, all that. But has also CLEARLY failed to perform. I mean shooting <40% in more than half your career playoff games paints a dismal picture.

True, and that's pretty much my position on the issue too. I never watched him that year Denver made it to the western finals- did he play any differently/better?

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:smackeddog we dont have balance. If the 3s arent falling the offense is whatever Melo can get us.

At this point I toe the line. Mel has been set up for failure in the playoffs for sure, in terms of matchups, injuries, all that. But has also CLEARLY failed to perform. I mean shooting <40% in more than half your career playoff games paints a dismal picture.

True, and that's pretty much my position on the issue too. I never watched him that year Denver made it to the western finals- did he play any differently/better?

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.

Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum

I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.

These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5

Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.

His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24

What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.

Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.

To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.

Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?

Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

FUNNY you post this fish after spending a whole day arguing with me over pretty much the same thing.. this is not a guy you invest 20 mil a year in. You can blame guys like JR and chandler, but when a team builds an offense around you, to cater to your style of play, if you do poorly the team suffers, and that has been the case with carmelo. Doesn't make him lee nailon, and sure as hell doesn't make him lebron or Durant..

Good research tho fish...

To me the only saving grace is defense

I agree with that in theory, but how do you build a monster defensive team when your best player doesn't defend? they have to set the tone.

Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?

I am not confident in that..

Ive never defended his post season record. Never ever. All Ive said is he had a monster year, all star, 3rd in MVP, getting as many votes as CP3 and Kobe combined, won a scoring title, 54 wins... all FACTS that show he had a monster year. Something you refuse to acknowledge.

We arent winning a title with Melo taking 30 shots in the playoffs. But if we dont pay our best player and biggest impact guy we wont go to the playoffs at all. So if paying a guy $20mm pretty much guarentees you 50ish wins after 10 years in the lottery I would say thats a sound return for your money. The question is can we build a team that can grind out wins in the post season. To me the biggest problem with this roster isnt Melo right now. He did his job last year. The supporting cast was a turnstyle of dudes who should be paid for hair loss and boner comercials, not for NBA basketball.

Not spending the money so we can win 25 games a year again isnt an option. Get over that. While it might be fun to get a good GM, trade Melo and stock up on picks and develop young players its just not happening. If thats what your holding out for try the Raptors... DJ is dying for dudes to watch ball with him

but I guess my point is, there is nothing to acknowledge, as we were talking about ESPN ranking him 15th, that was the title of the thread, and I agree with them.....

Not spending the money so we can win 25 games a year again isnt an option. Get over that

where did I say that fish?????!!!!

I said, I don't want to spend 20+ million on CARMELO!!! and the league has already proven, you can spend less money, make the playoffs and get eliminated in the first round,except you would have a higher ceiling for improvement....

While it might be fun to get a good GM, trade Melo and stock up on picks and develop young players its just not happening. If thats what your holding out for try the Raptors... DJ is dying for dudes to watch ball with him

I can go pull the quotes, but I am going to tell you the same thing I told people on the other site who was hating/knocking Daryl Morey.

You Don't have to be bad for long. Just be smart, develop a plan and stick to it... served Houston well, and they haven't been bad at all while building that team, managed to stay in the 40+ range almost every year...

but thats cool... pay carmelo his 20+ mil... I don't have to go watch the raptors, there are teams like Denver, Houston, Golden state that will put the kind of product on the floor that all of us dream about..

Vmart wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Melo likes hero ball. There are times when hero ball isn't the way to go and just being consistent all around player is what is required. Every game can't be beast mode he simple isn't a good enough shooter to do that. Consistent beast mode guys are players that shoot over 50% on a regular basis.

True, and I suppose thats why I don't blame Melo only- you look at the players he had round him in his playoffs as a Knick, and I don't really see the personel for effective team basketball, especially scoring wise.

I blame Melo, while he is doing his beast mode dance he is losing his teammates. Nothing worse than watching a player go in beast mode and shooting at less than 40% clip. The best year Melo had with Billup, Billups controlled the ball and he took the responsibility of getting the other players involved. Melo has tunnel vision and he doesn't realize his faults, he doesn't know the difference when he is shooting the team back into a game and shooting his team out.

Melo has to be a better shooter and more aware of his teammates you have to keep them in the game too. He can't have his own personal game going on.

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