crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

you kidding me? Thats a joke. CP3 is one of the best PG's of all time. Rings are about context ... he always played great. Like off the charts great.

Cp3 and melo are worlds apart and anyone who thinks different is completely missing the boat.

Honest question - isn't he held to the same standard of making his teammates better that Melo is? Why hasn't he ever made it out of the second round?

People used to ride Melo and Tmac for this all the time - not making it out of the second round. It's sort of funny to me that you don't hear it about CP3 as much.

And for an all-time great at PG, he sure gets abused by Steph Curry and Russell Westbrook quite a bit.

I could care less if a player makes it out of a round in the playoffs. I care if they played well or they were a big part of the reason for the team not making it.

If you look at CP3 stats, he may be from the best post season players that have played in the last 20 years. He is only one guy and can only do his best.

Melo on the other hand has stunk in the playoffs and was never anything close to CP3 in the regular season either.

WS48 regular season:

CP3 - .247 (CRAZY SH1T!)
Melo - .136 (good - average in .100 so well above average)

WS48 regular season:

CP3 - .200 (Elite Elite!)
Melo - .106 (oy vey!)

oh ... and lets not forget that Cp3 is an elite elite defender

as far as getting abused by curry and westbrook, everyone gets abused by them now and Cp3 aint a kid but he is still an excellent defender.

Isiah Thomas WS48 regular season: .109
Isiah Thomas WS48 postseason: .143

Jason Kidd WS48 regular season: .133
Jason Kidd WS48 postseason: .113

I have no idea what win shares count or how they were determined, but maybe they aren't the end all and be all of rating a player's effectiveness. (I suspect they are heavily weighted to favor the three pointer and Melo never took more than 2.5 3s a game in Denver - his 3pt attempts more than doubled in NY under D'Antoni and Woodson, and coincidentally his win shares went up.)

And looking at their career regular season records, Melo and CP3 are actually quite close there, too.

First ten seasons in the league CP3's team: 474-330.

First ten seasons in the league Melo's team: 470-334.

And I find it hard to believe you wouldn't judge a player's playoffs career when assessing their career. CP3's playoffs career has been extremely disappointing. Especially since the Clippers have been favored to come out of the west by a lot of people for the past three seasons and haven't come close.

Are the win shares wrong or is the perception of Isiah and Kidd wrong? I suspect it's a bit of both.

Nobody really checked players on these stats like hitting your shots at a high rate. As long as you looked good and dribbled fast or took and hit some really inefficient shots, the eye test was happy.

How come players don't do this today (at least not the good ones)? Because its not acceptable and they need to be answered for.

Yeah I guess there wasn't really a distinction between chucker and awesome player back. It was just assumed if your PPG was high, you were great.

Also, maybe if you beat Magic Johnson or Lebron James in the Finals and won a championship or two, people thought you were great.

I think WS is weighted toward the way the game is played now, more emphasis on threes. Thomas never shot that many threes because he could beat anyone in the league off the dribble whenever he wanted to and Dumars was the shooter. Most people who saw him play say he redefined the point guard position. He was pretty good.

That Jason Kidd guy wasn't too shabby, either, leading a flawed Nets team to the Finals twice in a row and then winning a chip with Dirk and also leading Melo to one of his better seasons.

Isiah could not take guys off the dribble and score when ever he wanted because if that was the case he would have made much more of his shots and he would have been seen as much more efficient.

Isiah was not a good 3 point shooter and neither was MJ or Tony Parker or Wade yet they were still extremely efficient. How about John Stockton? You see? People liked the dribble flare and that automatically made people think greatness. Dribble dribble is not enough today to fool a much smarter fan base.

Beating Magic? I did not realize the finals was a 1 on 1 :-)

If you look at the WS of players back then you would see that many of the greats had a great WS.

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Have no idea what the word "Real" means to some.

5APG is "real?" Wish Melo could average 5 APG...did not do it in his prime, though- never even cracked 4. He has been a much better distributor at times this year, which I like. He should continue to do it, even if guys are missing too many of the good looks he gets them.

If he is scoring 28PPG it will mean that the offense is broken and Anthony is putting up a ton of shots, since he is not going to have the 62% from the field he had the other day. This is not "real," and not good for the team, either.

If the Knicks are not winning, and he is averaging 28PPG, who cares. If he's doing it, and we are winning and the team is playing like a team, then I can accept it.

You know you have a losing team when fans cling to the statistics other than the winning % of their team. If you play the right way and win, the good stats will be there to cherish and roll about in like a pig in mud.

Most important thing for this season though is the development of our "younger" players, and I'm not just talking about the rookies. Have to see if we have something in Williams, Gallo, and O'Quinn, and I'd really like to know if Early has a future with the team.

At this time I'm probably more willing to accept a certain kind of play if it can somehow sneak us into the playoff picture because it would be good for the franchise and a selling point to FAs, but if a situation develops where there is an offensive imbalance, and the team is losing while the rookies are stagnant in their development, what is the point of it all?

Melo has played 12 years. I believe every year he's led his team in scoring and his first 10 seasons in the NBA were all winning seasons. The anti Melo crowd would have you believe he's a career loser putting up good numbers. His problem has been the post season where his style of play and/or lack of team depth have been exposed each year. Losing regular season games is a new thing for him.

As father time kicks in we will see how he adjusts. He's passed better and defended better this year. Sadly for Knick fans we have yet to view those improved traits with some good shooting as well. Now would be nice!

you're right... it's his style of play. so you can't throw his teammates under the bus for the playoff failures every single year. that's just a way of avoiding the uncomfortable truth that his style of play, with its profound flaws, gets exposed in the playoffs. he is the the red thread in his own career.

I believe the only playoff matchup he's ever been favored in and lost was the Knicks vs. Pacers, if you watched those games what did he get from his supporting cast? How did Tyson do vs. Hibbert? How did JR shoot? Did Kidd (MVP) even play?

I dont make excuses for Melo, but some perspective on his playoff failures wouldnt hurt either.

The Pacers may have been seeded third and the Knicks second, but that seeding was not reflective of which team was better-suited for playoff basketball. The better defensive team won handily. Even a creaky Celtics team gave the Knicks problems. No excuse for the Knicks losing that first game to the Pacers, losing home court. That's the sort of stuff that Melo-centric teams seem to suffer from.

Pacers matched up very well with us. We were a second seed at 54 win team with Jr being 6th man of the yr Jr, Kidd being a steady contributor and Tyson being DOP to go along with Melo being the scoring champ. None of those things happen(Except Melo) and it had nothing to do with us playing playoff basketball compared to regular season basketball.

Tyson getting manhandled by Hibbert had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Kidd no long being an effective player had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Jr Smith getting suspended and then partying with ReeRee had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
George Hill is better then Raymond Felton
David West is better then Iman Shumpert if we are to round off the core players.
That still leaves Lance to torch us off the bench.

melo doesn't elevate his game in the playoffs, nor does he adapt his game. it's not part of his nba dna. that is a fact. game 1 against the pacers he jacks up 28 shots and misses 18 of them. his putting his head down in sacramento and missing kp6 under the hoop is just another example among 100s that can be cited. matter of fact, the dunk attempt that was blocked by hibbert, tyson was alone under the basket. a simple little pocket bounce pass was perfectly makable, just as a hard overhead or even a hard lob to kp6-- also under the basket-- was makable.

think about that: in that first home game against the pacers he missed 18 shots on his home floor.

his usage was 43.3% and his assist rate was 6.2%.

Melo doesn't pass enough in the playoffs as his ast numbers are horrible, and his fg% drops. Everything else has improved in the playoffs compared to his regular season.

Even with going 10-28 he was +7 in plus minus and 1 of 3 players that had a positive plus minus. Tyson fouled out in 28 mins and had 3 rebounds. Jr Smith 27% usage, Kmart 20% usage, Shumpert 22% usage also touched the ball plenty. Felton and Pablo both leveled off Carmelo's high usage low ast% with 15%usg-15ast%(Felton) and Pablo (6%usage 37ast%)

You know why Felton and Pablo had a combined 21%usage-52ast% because they were getting there ast off of extra passes that started by Carmelo's kick outs. If you combine all 3. They held a 64usage% and 58ast%.

lol ... that was actually a good read but I wish I comprehended what you did there a bit better. You somehow configured a positive usage to assist rate for melo.

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Have no idea what the word "Real" means to some.

5APG is "real?" Wish Melo could average 5 APG...did not do it in his prime, though- never even cracked 4. He has been a much better distributor at times this year, which I like. He should continue to do it, even if guys are missing too many of the good looks he gets them.

If he is scoring 28PPG it will mean that the offense is broken and Anthony is putting up a ton of shots, since he is not going to have the 62% from the field he had the other day. This is not "real," and not good for the team, either.

If the Knicks are not winning, and he is averaging 28PPG, who cares. If he's doing it, and we are winning and the team is playing like a team, then I can accept it.

You know you have a losing team when fans cling to the statistics other than the winning % of their team. If you play the right way and win, the good stats will be there to cherish and roll about in like a pig in mud.

Most important thing for this season though is the development of our "younger" players, and I'm not just talking about the rookies. Have to see if we have something in Williams, Gallo, and O'Quinn, and I'd really like to know if Early has a future with the team.

At this time I'm probably more willing to accept a certain kind of play if it can somehow sneak us into the playoff picture because it would be good for the franchise and a selling point to FAs, but if a situation develops where there is an offensive imbalance, and the team is losing while the rookies are stagnant in their development, what is the point of it all?

Melo has played 12 years. I believe every year he's led his team in scoring and his first 10 seasons in the NBA were all winning seasons. The anti Melo crowd would have you believe he's a career loser putting up good numbers. His problem has been the post season where his style of play and/or lack of team depth have been exposed each year. Losing regular season games is a new thing for him.

As father time kicks in we will see how he adjusts. He's passed better and defended better this year. Sadly for Knick fans we have yet to view those improved traits with some good shooting as well. Now would be nice!

you're right... it's his style of play. so you can't throw his teammates under the bus for the playoff failures every single year. that's just a way of avoiding the uncomfortable truth that his style of play, with its profound flaws, gets exposed in the playoffs. he is the the red thread in his own career.

I believe the only playoff matchup he's ever been favored in and lost was the Knicks vs. Pacers, if you watched those games what did he get from his supporting cast? How did Tyson do vs. Hibbert? How did JR shoot? Did Kidd (MVP) even play?

I dont make excuses for Melo, but some perspective on his playoff failures wouldnt hurt either.

The Pacers may have been seeded third and the Knicks second, but that seeding was not reflective of which team was better-suited for playoff basketball. The better defensive team won handily. Even a creaky Celtics team gave the Knicks problems. No excuse for the Knicks losing that first game to the Pacers, losing home court. That's the sort of stuff that Melo-centric teams seem to suffer from.

Pacers matched up very well with us. We were a second seed at 54 win team with Jr being 6th man of the yr Jr, Kidd being a steady contributor and Tyson being DOP to go along with Melo being the scoring champ. None of those things happen(Except Melo) and it had nothing to do with us playing playoff basketball compared to regular season basketball.

Tyson getting manhandled by Hibbert had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Kidd no long being an effective player had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Jr Smith getting suspended and then partying with ReeRee had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
George Hill is better then Raymond Felton
David West is better then Iman Shumpert if we are to round off the core players.
That still leaves Lance to torch us off the bench.

melo doesn't elevate his game in the playoffs, nor does he adapt his game. it's not part of his nba dna. that is a fact. game 1 against the pacers he jacks up 28 shots and misses 18 of them. his putting his head down in sacramento and missing kp6 under the hoop is just another example among 100s that can be cited. matter of fact, the dunk attempt that was blocked by hibbert, tyson was alone under the basket. a simple little pocket bounce pass was perfectly makable, just as a hard overhead or even a hard lob to kp6-- also under the basket-- was makable.

think about that: in that first home game against the pacers he missed 18 shots on his home floor.

his usage was 43.3% and his assist rate was 6.2%.

Melo doesn't pass enough in the playoffs as his ast numbers are horrible, and his fg% drops. Everything else has improved in the playoffs compared to his regular season.

Even with going 10-28 he was +7 in plus minus and 1 of 3 players that had a positive plus minus. Tyson fouled out in 28 mins and had 3 rebounds. Jr Smith 27% usage, Kmart 20% usage, Shumpert 22% usage also touched the ball plenty. Felton and Pablo both leveled off Carmelo's high usage low ast% with 15%usg-15ast%(Felton) and Pablo (6%usage 37ast%)

You know why Felton and Pablo had a combined 21%usage-52ast% because they were getting there ast off of extra passes that started by Carmelo's kick outs. If you combine all 3. They held a 64usage% and 58ast%.

lol ... that was actually a good read but I wish I comprehended what you did there a bit better. You somehow configured a positive usage to assist rate for melo.

Don't know why its funny. That how the Knicks played basketball under Woodson. Kickouts and swing passes.

So are you saying that Melo had loads of hockey assists?

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Have no idea what the word "Real" means to some.

5APG is "real?" Wish Melo could average 5 APG...did not do it in his prime, though- never even cracked 4. He has been a much better distributor at times this year, which I like. He should continue to do it, even if guys are missing too many of the good looks he gets them.

If he is scoring 28PPG it will mean that the offense is broken and Anthony is putting up a ton of shots, since he is not going to have the 62% from the field he had the other day. This is not "real," and not good for the team, either.

If the Knicks are not winning, and he is averaging 28PPG, who cares. If he's doing it, and we are winning and the team is playing like a team, then I can accept it.

You know you have a losing team when fans cling to the statistics other than the winning % of their team. If you play the right way and win, the good stats will be there to cherish and roll about in like a pig in mud.

Most important thing for this season though is the development of our "younger" players, and I'm not just talking about the rookies. Have to see if we have something in Williams, Gallo, and O'Quinn, and I'd really like to know if Early has a future with the team.

At this time I'm probably more willing to accept a certain kind of play if it can somehow sneak us into the playoff picture because it would be good for the franchise and a selling point to FAs, but if a situation develops where there is an offensive imbalance, and the team is losing while the rookies are stagnant in their development, what is the point of it all?

Melo has played 12 years. I believe every year he's led his team in scoring and his first 10 seasons in the NBA were all winning seasons. The anti Melo crowd would have you believe he's a career loser putting up good numbers. His problem has been the post season where his style of play and/or lack of team depth have been exposed each year. Losing regular season games is a new thing for him.

As father time kicks in we will see how he adjusts. He's passed better and defended better this year. Sadly for Knick fans we have yet to view those improved traits with some good shooting as well. Now would be nice!

you're right... it's his style of play. so you can't throw his teammates under the bus for the playoff failures every single year. that's just a way of avoiding the uncomfortable truth that his style of play, with its profound flaws, gets exposed in the playoffs. he is the the red thread in his own career.

I believe the only playoff matchup he's ever been favored in and lost was the Knicks vs. Pacers, if you watched those games what did he get from his supporting cast? How did Tyson do vs. Hibbert? How did JR shoot? Did Kidd (MVP) even play?

I dont make excuses for Melo, but some perspective on his playoff failures wouldnt hurt either.

The Pacers may have been seeded third and the Knicks second, but that seeding was not reflective of which team was better-suited for playoff basketball. The better defensive team won handily. Even a creaky Celtics team gave the Knicks problems. No excuse for the Knicks losing that first game to the Pacers, losing home court. That's the sort of stuff that Melo-centric teams seem to suffer from.

Pacers matched up very well with us. We were a second seed at 54 win team with Jr being 6th man of the yr Jr, Kidd being a steady contributor and Tyson being DOP to go along with Melo being the scoring champ. None of those things happen(Except Melo) and it had nothing to do with us playing playoff basketball compared to regular season basketball.

Tyson getting manhandled by Hibbert had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Kidd no long being an effective player had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Jr Smith getting suspended and then partying with ReeRee had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
George Hill is better then Raymond Felton
David West is better then Iman Shumpert if we are to round off the core players.
That still leaves Lance to torch us off the bench.

and melo shooting terrible was a huge part of it just like it often is for him in the playoffs. Head down bully your man even if you are the one getting bullied.

Melo shot 43% from the field for the series. If you want to put a root cause of why we lost its because we couldn't keep up with players like Lance, West, Augustine. There depth played better then ours because they had the better players. Then you add in the fact that Tyson was completely owned by Hibbert. Melo would have to become Lebron James level dominate to over come there advantages.

If streaky Jr caught fire and played at his 18pt per game rate, and Kidd was first 10 games of the season Kidd and Tyson was DOP Tyson then we would have probably won even with Carmelo doing the same exact things.

There may have been a number of reasons for the loss but a huge one was melo playing very selfish hero ball and his terrible shooting percentages.

Melo makes the most... just blame him. I get it. Pro sports.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Have no idea what the word "Real" means to some.

5APG is "real?" Wish Melo could average 5 APG...did not do it in his prime, though- never even cracked 4. He has been a much better distributor at times this year, which I like. He should continue to do it, even if guys are missing too many of the good looks he gets them.

If he is scoring 28PPG it will mean that the offense is broken and Anthony is putting up a ton of shots, since he is not going to have the 62% from the field he had the other day. This is not "real," and not good for the team, either.

If the Knicks are not winning, and he is averaging 28PPG, who cares. If he's doing it, and we are winning and the team is playing like a team, then I can accept it.

You know you have a losing team when fans cling to the statistics other than the winning % of their team. If you play the right way and win, the good stats will be there to cherish and roll about in like a pig in mud.

Most important thing for this season though is the development of our "younger" players, and I'm not just talking about the rookies. Have to see if we have something in Williams, Gallo, and O'Quinn, and I'd really like to know if Early has a future with the team.

At this time I'm probably more willing to accept a certain kind of play if it can somehow sneak us into the playoff picture because it would be good for the franchise and a selling point to FAs, but if a situation develops where there is an offensive imbalance, and the team is losing while the rookies are stagnant in their development, what is the point of it all?

Melo has played 12 years. I believe every year he's led his team in scoring and his first 10 seasons in the NBA were all winning seasons. The anti Melo crowd would have you believe he's a career loser putting up good numbers. His problem has been the post season where his style of play and/or lack of team depth have been exposed each year. Losing regular season games is a new thing for him.

As father time kicks in we will see how he adjusts. He's passed better and defended better this year. Sadly for Knick fans we have yet to view those improved traits with some good shooting as well. Now would be nice!

you're right... it's his style of play. so you can't throw his teammates under the bus for the playoff failures every single year. that's just a way of avoiding the uncomfortable truth that his style of play, with its profound flaws, gets exposed in the playoffs. he is the the red thread in his own career.

I believe the only playoff matchup he's ever been favored in and lost was the Knicks vs. Pacers, if you watched those games what did he get from his supporting cast? How did Tyson do vs. Hibbert? How did JR shoot? Did Kidd (MVP) even play?

I dont make excuses for Melo, but some perspective on his playoff failures wouldnt hurt either.

The Pacers may have been seeded third and the Knicks second, but that seeding was not reflective of which team was better-suited for playoff basketball. The better defensive team won handily. Even a creaky Celtics team gave the Knicks problems. No excuse for the Knicks losing that first game to the Pacers, losing home court. That's the sort of stuff that Melo-centric teams seem to suffer from.

Pacers matched up very well with us. We were a second seed at 54 win team with Jr being 6th man of the yr Jr, Kidd being a steady contributor and Tyson being DOP to go along with Melo being the scoring champ. None of those things happen(Except Melo) and it had nothing to do with us playing playoff basketball compared to regular season basketball.

Tyson getting manhandled by Hibbert had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Kidd no long being an effective player had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Jr Smith getting suspended and then partying with ReeRee had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
George Hill is better then Raymond Felton
David West is better then Iman Shumpert if we are to round off the core players.
That still leaves Lance to torch us off the bench.

and melo shooting terrible was a huge part of it just like it often is for him in the playoffs. Head down bully your man even if you are the one getting bullied.

Melo shot 43% from the field for the series. If you want to put a root cause of why we lost its because we couldn't keep up with players like Lance, West, Augustine. There depth played better then ours because they had the better players. Then you add in the fact that Tyson was completely owned by Hibbert. Melo would have to become Lebron James level dominate to over come there advantages.

If streaky Jr caught fire and played at his 18pt per game rate, and Kidd was first 10 games of the season Kidd and Tyson was DOP Tyson then we would have probably won even with Carmelo doing the same exact things.

There may have been a number of reasons for the loss but a huge one was melo playing very selfish hero ball and his terrible shooting percentages.

or when the role players utterly fall on their faces and you get nothing from 6th man JR, Kidd and Tyson than you are left with your primary scorer trying to do too much. You really telling me you cant see see that? I mean what do you think the mindset is for this player? When the team is struggling the best players are expected to step up. So when other players are failing in their roles, when the real MVP of the team (Kidd) makes what? two baskets in the playoffs? When your #2 scorer cant throw it in the oceaon.. whats your expecation? That Melo go create easier shots for them? Maybe have them for dinner after to boost their confidence?

Melo makes the most... just blame him. I get it. Pro sports.

I do get it however, I don't think that you care to even see the flip side. They sucked so he was forced to score more and him not getting his teammates involved did not help them not suck, it actually was a part of it. There is nothing worse for any team then watching a player think that he needs to and can do it all himself.

I can name you many players who had horrible teams that still played efficiently and still shared the ball. If you get the game as you say that you do, you would understand that carmelo's playoff basketball way is terrible and stupid basketball. You can try to explain away series after series but at some point you will have to consider the unthinkable.

smackeddog we dont have balance. If the 3s arent falling the offense is whatever Melo can get us.
At this point I toe the line. Mel has been set up for failure in the playoffs for sure, in terms of matchups, injuries, all that. But has also CLEARLY failed to perform. I mean shooting <40% in more than half your career playoff games paints a dismal picture.

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Have no idea what the word "Real" means to some.

5APG is "real?" Wish Melo could average 5 APG...did not do it in his prime, though- never even cracked 4. He has been a much better distributor at times this year, which I like. He should continue to do it, even if guys are missing too many of the good looks he gets them.

If he is scoring 28PPG it will mean that the offense is broken and Anthony is putting up a ton of shots, since he is not going to have the 62% from the field he had the other day. This is not "real," and not good for the team, either.

If the Knicks are not winning, and he is averaging 28PPG, who cares. If he's doing it, and we are winning and the team is playing like a team, then I can accept it.

You know you have a losing team when fans cling to the statistics other than the winning % of their team. If you play the right way and win, the good stats will be there to cherish and roll about in like a pig in mud.

Most important thing for this season though is the development of our "younger" players, and I'm not just talking about the rookies. Have to see if we have something in Williams, Gallo, and O'Quinn, and I'd really like to know if Early has a future with the team.

At this time I'm probably more willing to accept a certain kind of play if it can somehow sneak us into the playoff picture because it would be good for the franchise and a selling point to FAs, but if a situation develops where there is an offensive imbalance, and the team is losing while the rookies are stagnant in their development, what is the point of it all?

Melo has played 12 years. I believe every year he's led his team in scoring and his first 10 seasons in the NBA were all winning seasons. The anti Melo crowd would have you believe he's a career loser putting up good numbers. His problem has been the post season where his style of play and/or lack of team depth have been exposed each year. Losing regular season games is a new thing for him.

As father time kicks in we will see how he adjusts. He's passed better and defended better this year. Sadly for Knick fans we have yet to view those improved traits with some good shooting as well. Now would be nice!

you're right... it's his style of play. so you can't throw his teammates under the bus for the playoff failures every single year. that's just a way of avoiding the uncomfortable truth that his style of play, with its profound flaws, gets exposed in the playoffs. he is the the red thread in his own career.

I believe the only playoff matchup he's ever been favored in and lost was the Knicks vs. Pacers, if you watched those games what did he get from his supporting cast? How did Tyson do vs. Hibbert? How did JR shoot? Did Kidd (MVP) even play?

I dont make excuses for Melo, but some perspective on his playoff failures wouldnt hurt either.

The Pacers may have been seeded third and the Knicks second, but that seeding was not reflective of which team was better-suited for playoff basketball. The better defensive team won handily. Even a creaky Celtics team gave the Knicks problems. No excuse for the Knicks losing that first game to the Pacers, losing home court. That's the sort of stuff that Melo-centric teams seem to suffer from.

Pacers matched up very well with us. We were a second seed at 54 win team with Jr being 6th man of the yr Jr, Kidd being a steady contributor and Tyson being DOP to go along with Melo being the scoring champ. None of those things happen(Except Melo) and it had nothing to do with us playing playoff basketball compared to regular season basketball.

Tyson getting manhandled by Hibbert had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Kidd no long being an effective player had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Jr Smith getting suspended and then partying with ReeRee had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
George Hill is better then Raymond Felton
David West is better then Iman Shumpert if we are to round off the core players.
That still leaves Lance to torch us off the bench.

melo doesn't elevate his game in the playoffs, nor does he adapt his game. it's not part of his nba dna. that is a fact. game 1 against the pacers he jacks up 28 shots and misses 18 of them. his putting his head down in sacramento and missing kp6 under the hoop is just another example among 100s that can be cited. matter of fact, the dunk attempt that was blocked by hibbert, tyson was alone under the basket. a simple little pocket bounce pass was perfectly makable, just as a hard overhead or even a hard lob to kp6-- also under the basket-- was makable.

think about that: in that first home game against the pacers he missed 18 shots on his home floor.

his usage was 43.3% and his assist rate was 6.2%.

Melo doesn't pass enough in the playoffs as his ast numbers are horrible, and his fg% drops. Everything else has improved in the playoffs compared to his regular season.

Even with going 10-28 he was +7 in plus minus and 1 of 3 players that had a positive plus minus. Tyson fouled out in 28 mins and had 3 rebounds. Jr Smith 27% usage, Kmart 20% usage, Shumpert 22% usage also touched the ball plenty. Felton and Pablo both leveled off Carmelo's high usage low ast% with 15%usg-15ast%(Felton) and Pablo (6%usage 37ast%)

You know why Felton and Pablo had a combined 21%usage-52ast% because they were getting there ast off of extra passes that started by Carmelo's kick outs. If you combine all 3. They held a 64usage% and 58ast%.

lol ... that was actually a good read but I wish I comprehended what you did there a bit better. You somehow configured a positive usage to assist rate for melo.

Don't know why its funny. That how the Knicks played basketball under Woodson. Kickouts and swing passes.

So are you saying that Melo had loads of hockey assists?

So you're saying that when Melo doesn't advance in the playoffs it's his fault, but when Chris Paul doesn't advance in the playoffs it's, what, an act of god? Or do teammate's performances come into play for Chris Paul? As a point guard, isn't it even more CP3's responsibility to get his teammates going? Melo was playing power forward against Indiana - playing with an injured shoulder that David West hammered in game 80 of the regular season and then KG tried to yank out of its socket in the playoffs against Boston.

I'm glad there are some guys on this forum who watched the games and realized that Melo took those shots because his teammates couldn't or wouldn't. Maybe Melo would've had more assists if guys like Felton didn't go 1-7 every game. JR went like 4-15 or 4-16 every night against Indiana. Is that Melo's fault, too? Should Melo have passed more to JR? Is Woodson to blame at all for not exploiting the Chris Copeland matchup? Is Tyson to blame at all for laying a complete goose egg in every playoffs series he was in in New York? Is Jason Kidd at fault since he was basically interviewing for the Nets coaching job DURING that playoffs run?

Melo's not flawless. He's a flawed star. But he plays hard and usually quite well. This is reminiscent of when guys used to bash Ewing. It's tired. Look at the roster. It's very similar to the rosters Lebron had in Cleveland before he went to Miami. Yes, Bron got to the Finals once in Cleveland back in the day, but just as often he had playoffs series where he looked completely alone on the floor and no amount of passing to Zydrunas or Boobie Gibson was going to beat Boston in the playoffs.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Have no idea what the word "Real" means to some.

5APG is "real?" Wish Melo could average 5 APG...did not do it in his prime, though- never even cracked 4. He has been a much better distributor at times this year, which I like. He should continue to do it, even if guys are missing too many of the good looks he gets them.

If he is scoring 28PPG it will mean that the offense is broken and Anthony is putting up a ton of shots, since he is not going to have the 62% from the field he had the other day. This is not "real," and not good for the team, either.

If the Knicks are not winning, and he is averaging 28PPG, who cares. If he's doing it, and we are winning and the team is playing like a team, then I can accept it.

You know you have a losing team when fans cling to the statistics other than the winning % of their team. If you play the right way and win, the good stats will be there to cherish and roll about in like a pig in mud.

Most important thing for this season though is the development of our "younger" players, and I'm not just talking about the rookies. Have to see if we have something in Williams, Gallo, and O'Quinn, and I'd really like to know if Early has a future with the team.

At this time I'm probably more willing to accept a certain kind of play if it can somehow sneak us into the playoff picture because it would be good for the franchise and a selling point to FAs, but if a situation develops where there is an offensive imbalance, and the team is losing while the rookies are stagnant in their development, what is the point of it all?

Melo has played 12 years. I believe every year he's led his team in scoring and his first 10 seasons in the NBA were all winning seasons. The anti Melo crowd would have you believe he's a career loser putting up good numbers. His problem has been the post season where his style of play and/or lack of team depth have been exposed each year. Losing regular season games is a new thing for him.

As father time kicks in we will see how he adjusts. He's passed better and defended better this year. Sadly for Knick fans we have yet to view those improved traits with some good shooting as well. Now would be nice!

you're right... it's his style of play. so you can't throw his teammates under the bus for the playoff failures every single year. that's just a way of avoiding the uncomfortable truth that his style of play, with its profound flaws, gets exposed in the playoffs. he is the the red thread in his own career.

I believe the only playoff matchup he's ever been favored in and lost was the Knicks vs. Pacers, if you watched those games what did he get from his supporting cast? How did Tyson do vs. Hibbert? How did JR shoot? Did Kidd (MVP) even play?

I dont make excuses for Melo, but some perspective on his playoff failures wouldnt hurt either.

The Pacers may have been seeded third and the Knicks second, but that seeding was not reflective of which team was better-suited for playoff basketball. The better defensive team won handily. Even a creaky Celtics team gave the Knicks problems. No excuse for the Knicks losing that first game to the Pacers, losing home court. That's the sort of stuff that Melo-centric teams seem to suffer from.

Pacers matched up very well with us. We were a second seed at 54 win team with Jr being 6th man of the yr Jr, Kidd being a steady contributor and Tyson being DOP to go along with Melo being the scoring champ. None of those things happen(Except Melo) and it had nothing to do with us playing playoff basketball compared to regular season basketball.

Tyson getting manhandled by Hibbert had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Kidd no long being an effective player had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Jr Smith getting suspended and then partying with ReeRee had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
George Hill is better then Raymond Felton
David West is better then Iman Shumpert if we are to round off the core players.
That still leaves Lance to torch us off the bench.

and melo shooting terrible was a huge part of it just like it often is for him in the playoffs. Head down bully your man even if you are the one getting bullied.

Melo shot 43% from the field for the series. If you want to put a root cause of why we lost its because we couldn't keep up with players like Lance, West, Augustine. There depth played better then ours because they had the better players. Then you add in the fact that Tyson was completely owned by Hibbert. Melo would have to become Lebron James level dominate to over come there advantages.

If streaky Jr caught fire and played at his 18pt per game rate, and Kidd was first 10 games of the season Kidd and Tyson was DOP Tyson then we would have probably won even with Carmelo doing the same exact things.

There may have been a number of reasons for the loss but a huge one was melo playing very selfish hero ball and his terrible shooting percentages.

or when the role players utterly fall on their faces and you get nothing from 6th man JR, Kidd and Tyson than you are left with your primary scorer trying to do too much. You really telling me you cant see see that? I mean what do you think the mindset is for this player? When the team is struggling the best players are expected to step up. So when other players are failing in their roles, when the real MVP of the team (Kidd) makes what? two baskets in the playoffs? When your #2 scorer cant throw it in the oceaon.. whats your expecation? That Melo go create easier shots for them? Maybe have them for dinner after to boost their confidence?

Melo makes the most... just blame him. I get it. Pro sports.

I do get it however, I don't think that you care to even see the flip side. They sucked so he was forced to score more and him not getting his teammates involved did not help them not suck, it actually was a part of it. There is nothing worse for any team then watching a player think that he needs to and can do it all himself.

I can name you many players who had horrible teams that still played efficiently and still shared the ball. If you get the game as you say that you do, you would understand that carmelo's playoff basketball way is terrible and stupid basketball. You can try to explain away series after series but at some point you will have to consider the unthinkable.

its not unthinkable to me at all: http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45742

I have always held him accountable for the flaws in his game and see him for what he is. It just dont hate him and troll other Knick fans about it like the genius crew on this board.

If you understood the game as you say you do you would understand there is a reason for the way he plays in the playoffs, and how much of that starts with the team around him.

Problem is you just cant discuss this player here. People are far more interested in being right about him than actually watching whats happening.

who are you talking about trying to be right? Most people get what he is except really a select few diehards who say things like "I know what melo is and I wish he would pass more but ..."

Melo gets the same shake as everyone else. Tell me why barkley who was surrounded by sh1tty teams in Philly found a way to still play great and be efficient? Wasn't he set up to fail? Melo is too big to fail on his own? Do you think that if you put Dirk on the knicks team he would have shot the same percentage? Of course not! Dirk don't play dat.

I am not a melo hater at all. I hate the way he plays quite often and I hate his weak and faulty mindset about the team concept.

If he took a half court shot with 4 seconds to go in the Sacramento game, many here would excuse him too.

Seems like the book on melo is officially out and everyone who wants to get it is getting it.

Now, that most are getting it and the pressure in immense and getting to him, will he change his game and his faulty mindset or will he just stay the same melo and rely on the diehards who will excuse him for anything?

Its gonna either change at this point or crash (unless he can shoot lights out every night which we know wont happen).