fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think an apology for the product they paid handsomely to watch nightly is also in order...

well lets be fair.. thats another thing we have seen from this management. All other regimes in the past it was "we like our team" or "we are always looking to improve" or equally empty things. Phil says we stink and give the BB gods heartburn. I mean sounds weird but thats a breath of fresh air. We are terrible and have work to do.

Phil said he was trying to make the playoffs with the product out of training camp...He wasn't even close so he decided to clean house...Fisher has just been awful..Phil said he traded for Calderon because he fits what he is trying to do..Later he said he was trying to trade Calderon but there were no takers..What GM does that to a player by the way...I'm not under any illusions, I'm scared..The plan changes on a whim...But hey, I'm rooting for him and Fisher...

I don't have a problem with a go changing course when his plan A has failed- to me that's the smart thing to do, and I don't see why he gets blasted for that. Fish hasn't shown anything this season, but I'll give him a pass as it's his first season and he has an awful roster and injuries- hopefully he improves next season or we're in trouble.

I don't regard the shump and Jr trade as a mistake- JR had negative value so we used shump to get rid of him. JR had a plantar fascia tear and shump always seemed to get injured (see last year at the trade deadline) so it was a risk holding onto them any longer.

Tyson trade, I never liked Calderón, but I'll see how Early and the Greek kid turn out (and Larkin). It's funny- the posters who say how important picks are completely ignore the fact we got those players and pretend the trade was just tyson for Calderón. I was glad to get rid of Felton, and Calderón is only an extra 3mil I think a year, which is okay for a backup of who can shoot.

I'll judge Phil after this offseason- that's the true test, up until now he didn't have much to work with. If we end up with a top 3 pick and some nice off-season free agents then I'm pleased.

I don't buy the JR and Shump had zero value..That's Knick fan talk..No one has value on their teams...They suggested trading Melo for a pick when The Nuggets got two 1st for Moz...We could and should have gotten something in return...They have made Cleveland a contender...I'm hoping for the best...

If Jr had value then why didn't Phil trade him for that value? Do you really think someone offered a first for him, and he went- nah, I'd rather trade him for nothing! I agree with you in the sense that Jr could always contribute in the right situation, but unfortunately other gms don't see that until it happens. That's my biggest issue with the criticism on Phil's trades- people say we should and could have gotten more without actually knowing if he could have gotten more, because there were no leaks about alternative offers. So really you're left with: should we have traded them for what we did, or kept them.

I think JR and Shump was a quick dump after Fish started getting booed in January...Phil was just buying time because fans will then think we were tanking which is what happened...As a Knick fan, we always seem to come out on the losing ends of trades because we seem to do a panic trade...We all but announce we will get rid of these players and then wonder why we don't get value in return...Everyone knew that we would move Felton and Tyson at the end of the season...We got Calderon and a 2nd round pick back..

So you think that had we kept Tyson, we couldn't get anything from Cleveland for him??..Or that Cleveland can't get anything in return for JR or Shump now??

I don't think JR had value. I think he was a salary dump and that was why Shump was included. JR's 'value' has been plummeting since the playoffs two years ago. His erratic behavior and performance on the court has been well documented both in the NY and national media.

JR had the same knee injury as Melo plus a torn meniscus when playing in the playoffs...

Ive heard this excuse for him before. He was playing his best ball in April. He had no physical issues during those playoffs except that he was hung over and hoop was much smaller looking through his squinty eyes.

I mean what proof do you need? Look at his WS/48
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjr01.html

JR has a negative as a KNick this year! Cle bought low and rolled the dice, that simple. JR's play as a Knick since those playoffs is among the worst in the NBA. Hurt, failed drugs tests, mailed it in during the playoffs, only playing well in Cle because the nightlife sucks (his comment, NOT mine) I mean when do you pull the plug?

And calderon has done what?

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:Well now we don't have JR to blame...I'm hoping for a 30+ win season next year...Wow..I can't believe I just wrote that...

Im hoping for a worst to first

THIS! We can't guarantee what level of success we can expect but the sky is the limit at this point. We don't know what is going to happen this summer but there's at least a good chance for major upgrades to our top 6 rotation.

If we learned anything from history, it is a true long shot

StraightShot wrote:Great message and an example of what makes Phil so great - his unsurpassed communication and motivational ability. He knows it's been a tough season for the fans, but really highlighted the promising signs for next season: 25 million in cap space, a top pick in the draft, and the opportunity to bring in players of character to play alongside Carmelo. He knows it's been disappointing, but he is steadfast and has a clear plan for summer '15 and beyond. I'm very confident in Phil and his abilities, and I know Jim is too.

StraightShot, whenever I see your name in the Last Post column on the Forum Index, my heart does a little dance. Say hi to Jim for us!

smackeddog wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think an apology for the product they paid handsomely to watch nightly is also in order...

well lets be fair.. thats another thing we have seen from this management. All other regimes in the past it was "we like our team" or "we are always looking to improve" or equally empty things. Phil says we stink and give the BB gods heartburn. I mean sounds weird but thats a breath of fresh air. We are terrible and have work to do.

Phil said he was trying to make the playoffs with the product out of training camp...He wasn't even close so he decided to clean house...Fisher has just been awful..Phil said he traded for Calderon because he fits what he is trying to do..Later he said he was trying to trade Calderon but there were no takers..What GM does that to a player by the way...I'm not under any illusions, I'm scared..The plan changes on a whim...But hey, I'm rooting for him and Fisher...

1st of all since so many teams make the playoffs it's not strange for a GM to come out and say we could make the playoffs. Especially in the East. There were health issues from the very start which hampered the process and on top of that you had JR and others not really buying in and a bad attitude in the locker room. Phil said from the start that he would pretty much know what he has by December and so he flushed that project and went with plan B. This has put us in a position to land a top pick for once. What's not to like about him doing that? This is what needed to be done.

If we end up drafting a stud this summer no one is going to be focussing on this season any longer. Except to say that it was worth it.

The reason I don't buy the JR not buying in story is that he was one of the better players in the triangle in my opinion..I often commented he made the best passes out of the sets...JR is everyone's scapegoat...

Exactly, the triangle's most important position is the 2g, a position that's now dominated by combo guards that are 6 4".

I can't wait to hear phils sorry ass speech when he realize's he has to max out any FA considering the knicks, or when his only options are summer league players and d-leaugers

You're hoping and looking forward to us failing this off-season so you can be proved right? Weird priorities.

And this is how I end up in these epic battles with these guys about the teams prospects. I get that my optimistic take isn't for everyone but I'm not hoping for failure. All I'm saying is we've got a good chance for success this summer.

They not only disagree but some are hoping for failure IMO. Some believe failure is the most likely outcome. Anytime we present likely scenarios for future rosters they shoot it down. Fine they disagree but I find it odd to be so nasty towards the team you claim to love when they finally tore it down to get a high pick and try to sign free agents. Closest thing to rebuild we're gonna get and still they're not happy.

smackeddog wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think an apology for the product they paid handsomely to watch nightly is also in order...

well lets be fair.. thats another thing we have seen from this management. All other regimes in the past it was "we like our team" or "we are always looking to improve" or equally empty things. Phil says we stink and give the BB gods heartburn. I mean sounds weird but thats a breath of fresh air. We are terrible and have work to do.

Phil said he was trying to make the playoffs with the product out of training camp...He wasn't even close so he decided to clean house...Fisher has just been awful..Phil said he traded for Calderon because he fits what he is trying to do..Later he said he was trying to trade Calderon but there were no takers..What GM does that to a player by the way...I'm not under any illusions, I'm scared..The plan changes on a whim...But hey, I'm rooting for him and Fisher...

1st of all since so many teams make the playoffs it's not strange for a GM to come out and say we could make the playoffs. Especially in the East. There were health issues from the very start which hampered the process and on top of that you had JR and others not really buying in and a bad attitude in the locker room. Phil said from the start that he would pretty much know what he has by December and so he flushed that project and went with plan B. This has put us in a position to land a top pick for once. What's not to like about him doing that? This is what needed to be done.

If we end up drafting a stud this summer no one is going to be focussing on this season any longer. Except to say that it was worth it.

The reason I don't buy the JR not buying in story is that he was one of the better players in the triangle in my opinion..I often commented he made the best passes out of the sets...JR is everyone's scapegoat...

Exactly, the triangle's most important position is the 2g, a position that's now dominated by combo guards that are 6 4".

I can't wait to hear phils sorry ass speech when he realize's he has to max out any FA considering the knicks, or when his only options are summer league players and d-leaugers

You're hoping and looking forward to us failing this off-season so you can be proved right? Weird priorities.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think an apology for the product they paid handsomely to watch nightly is also in order...

well lets be fair.. thats another thing we have seen from this management. All other regimes in the past it was "we like our team" or "we are always looking to improve" or equally empty things. Phil says we stink and give the BB gods heartburn. I mean sounds weird but thats a breath of fresh air. We are terrible and have work to do.

Phil said he was trying to make the playoffs with the product out of training camp...He wasn't even close so he decided to clean house...Fisher has just been awful..Phil said he traded for Calderon because he fits what he is trying to do..Later he said he was trying to trade Calderon but there were no takers..What GM does that to a player by the way...I'm not under any illusions, I'm scared..The plan changes on a whim...But hey, I'm rooting for him and Fisher...

1st of all since so many teams make the playoffs it's not strange for a GM to come out and say we could make the playoffs. Especially in the East. There were health issues from the very start which hampered the process and on top of that you had JR and others not really buying in and a bad attitude in the locker room. Phil said from the start that he would pretty much know what he has by December and so he flushed that project and went with plan B. This has put us in a position to land a top pick for once. What's not to like about him doing that? This is what needed to be done.

If we end up drafting a stud this summer no one is going to be focussing on this season any longer. Except to say that it was worth it.

The reason I don't buy the JR not buying in story is that he was one of the better players in the triangle in my opinion..I often commented he made the best passes out of the sets...JR is everyone's scapegoat...

Exactly, the triangle's most important position is the 2g, a position that's now dominated by combo guards that are 6 4".

I can't wait to hear phils sorry ass speech when he realize's he has to max out any FA considering the knicks, or when his only options are summer league players and d-leaugers

You're hoping and looking forward to us failing this off-season so you can be proved right? Weird priorities.

And this is how I end up in these epic battles with these guys about the teams prospects. I get that my optimistic take isn't for everyone but I'm not hoping for failure. All I'm saying is we've got a good chance for success this summer.

They not only disagree but some are hoping for failure IMO. Some believe failure is the most likely outcome. Anytime we present likely scenarios for future rosters they shoot it down. Fine they disagree but I find it odd to be so nasty towards the team you claim to love when they finally tore it down to get a high pick and try to sign free agents. Closest thing to rebuild we're gonna get and still they're not happy.

if you were a betting man, do you think that there is a better chance of success (+40 wins) or failure?

How many games do you think that we will win next year?

Whats your win total prediction for this team (assuming Melo looks healthy and normal come fall)
C RLopz
PF Okafor
SF Melo
SG Galloway
PG Dragic
Bench: Shved, Admundson, Early, Cole, etc

And that doesnt factor in Jose, who is only one year removed from starting 80 games with an almost 600 TS%, I think its reasonable to consider the upside of him bouncing back and having a very good year as well.

I mean that could absolutely be a 45-50 win team, especially if Melo is a 100%.

The possibility is there and its real. Odds? I have no clue. I would not be suprised by the above lineup playing great and the Knicks doing a worst to first. I really wouldnt. I also wouldnt be suprised if its a disaster. Its tough to tell in Knick land. If this was a Dolan stooge in charge I would expect the worst, Phil is uncharted. Things will be much much clearer by the fall.

I dont think a quick bounce would be a miracle... like hoping Gallo is the next Dirk. I mean he have close to enough to add 2 max guys next to Melo and a top 3 pick. I mean whats the forumula for that kind of bounce? Guys who did nothing return from injury (Jose/Melo), you have the cap space to sign an impact FA, and you have a top pick to draft an impact player. Its totally possible we could have a big 4

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think rushing to get the "disruptive" TYSON Chandler out of the lockerroom did anything for this current lockerroom

No but you wanted it to happen also. In fact you started a thread on that...
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=46979

If you look back a year ago there is plenty more:
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=47019
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=47041

Briggs is another who kills the Tyson trade but last year he was pining to dump Tyson for the first chance at a pick in the bottom of the first round.

The trade didnt work out, but as you can see from the above nobody, NOBODY was saying Tyson needs a better environment. Tyson will bounce back, Tyson will get healthy, bla bla bla. Sorry folks.. you all wanted him dumped. Meanwhile this time last year Calderon was the starting PG on a 50 win team in the West shooting 45% from 3 and was a very good floor general for that team. You guys can pretend you were kicking and screaming but you werent. This was not a bad trade at face value. God forbid Early or Thanisis pop and Tyson is an afterthought.

Im sure when we jettison Calderon and he's back to shooting 45% from 3 and playing really well for some other team there will be a new list of excuses.

holfresh wrote:WSJ's take on Phil's spiel...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/phil-jackson-to-knicks-fans-youre-my-kind-of-crazy-1427855404?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLE_Video_Third

On Monday, Knicks president Phil Jackson wrote a letter to aggrieved season-ticket holders. Here’s how Jason Gay read it.

Dear Knicks Season Ticket Holder,

Good day. I know you all have endured a long, cold winter in New York City, but as I write this, it is a 67-degree morning on the beach in California—not cold, but breezy enough that I need to put on a wool cardigan. Brrrr! Much better.

Whoa, I think I just saw a dolphin. The Pacific is magic!

Anyhoo, the Knicks. Listen: Bless you all. Seriously, thank you. I can’t believe you stuck with this sad, cake-deprived birthday party this long. It’s stunning you made it through this whole season without gnawing off the back off your seat in Madison Square Garden.

You’re nuts, all of you. Nuts in a good way.

There’s no need to go into the particulars, but this outfit has lost 60 games. Sixty games! When Jordan came back in 1995 and we won three more titles, you know how many games we lost? Forty-three—in three years! Did I ever tell you I coached the Chicago Bulls? And the Lakers, who play not far from here.

Hey, I think that’s another dolphin. Must be a pod.

Look, the MSG mothership wants me to send you a note reassuring you that I have a plan, so you’ll re-up for season tickets in 2015-16. I think the mothership is panicking, but if you were crazy enough to sit through this season you’ll sit through the next, right?

There’s also a draft pick and cap space and we have a commitment to a style and personality that is reflective of…

I don’t know, buddy! I have to level with you. The draft offers no assurance of anything. Sometimes you get Stephen Curry, sometimes you get Frederic Weis, sometimes you trade your pick to Danny Ainge for an old sofa. We’re doing our homework. I’m watching tons of boring college games. Free agents? We’ll see. It’s not much of a pitch right now: Hey, want to take some extra money to come play on the worst basketball team in Knicks history and have the newspapers yell at you in capital letters?

I’m doing the best that I can. It’s a process. How many ways can I say it? You must give me time. A lot of you lunatics are into the Jets, who’ve been waiting longer than we have. Why are you giving me such a hard time? Go bug somebody else. Go bug the Nets. We play the Nets Wednesday night in a season finale of a crosstown rivalry that’s as much of a rivalry as pecan pie vs. galoshes.

Yes: the Nets might make the playoffs, but can you name two Nets?

Allow me to describe the Knicks in New York fashion: Remember that pizza place that opened around the corner from your apartment, and you went for the first time, and the pizza wasn’t really that good, so you didn’t go for a while, and then you went again, like, eight months later, and the pizza wasn’t that horrible? And then you went a year after that and it was even better than that, and you said out loud, “I would not call this pizza good, but it no longer makes me want to cry?”

Well, think of us as that pizza place, where you can boo the pizza, which costs $63 million.

So renew your tickets.

Yada-yada, championship, 1970s, bring it back to New York, yada-yada…dolphin!

Your pal,

Phil.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think rushing to get the "disruptive" TYSON Chandler out of the lockerroom did anything for this current lockerroom

No but you wanted it to happen also. In fact you started a thread on that...
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=46979

If you look back a year ago there is plenty more:
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=47019
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=47041

Briggs is another who kills the Tyson trade but last year he was pining to dump Tyson for the first chance at a pick in the bottom of the first round.

The trade didnt work out, but as you can see from the above nobody, NOBODY was saying Tyson needs a better environment. Tyson will bounce back, Tyson will get healthy, bla bla bla. Sorry folks.. you all wanted him dumped. Meanwhile this time last year Calderon was the starting PG on a 50 win team in the West shooting 45% from 3 and was a very good floor general for that team. You guys can pretend you were kicking and screaming but you werent. This was not a bad trade at face value. God forbid Early or Thanisis pop and Tyson is an afterthought.

Im sure when we jettison Calderon and he's back to shooting 45% from 3 and playing really well for some other team there will be a new list of excuses.

Look a little more closely at those threads. Of course, no one used the word "will" as if they had a crystal ball but there were plenty of people talking about this environment bringing the worst out in Tyson and expecting him to also play better in a contract year. Most players do.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think rushing to get the "disruptive" TYSON Chandler out of the lockerroom did anything for this current lockerroom

No but you wanted it to happen also. In fact you started a thread on that...
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=46979

If you look back a year ago there is plenty more:
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=47019
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=47041

Briggs is another who kills the Tyson trade but last year he was pining to dump Tyson for the first chance at a pick in the bottom of the first round.

The trade didnt work out, but as you can see from the above nobody, NOBODY was saying Tyson needs a better environment. Tyson will bounce back, Tyson will get healthy, bla bla bla. Sorry folks.. you all wanted him dumped. Meanwhile this time last year Calderon was the starting PG on a 50 win team in the West shooting 45% from 3 and was a very good floor general for that team. You guys can pretend you were kicking and screaming but you werent. This was not a bad trade at face value. God forbid Early or Thanisis pop and Tyson is an afterthought.

Im sure when we jettison Calderon and he's back to shooting 45% from 3 and playing really well for some other team there will be a new list of excuses.

We are never short of excuses here. I like the trade and still think Calderon will be back shooting 40% from three. This is a lost season and a lot of this was planned.

Was looking at old Pippen highlights of his beginning years. Thanasis definitely has a lot of Pippen type game. Given time and health Early will produce better numbers than what he is showing same with Larkin.

I was just not a Tyson guy he is a raw talent, I mean so many years in the NBA and still no offensive game asides from put backs and dunks.

People underestimate how hard it is to develop new skills in the NBA. If you watch the highlights from his workouts with Hakeem, I think you'll be astonished by his wide range of low post moves - spin moves, fadeaways, and more. And he was hitting shot after shot after shot. It just didn't translate to the NBA effectively enough. My guess is he's tried in practice against NBA players and it just hasn't worked. If you can only hit 40% in the low post, it's useless and you shouldn't even try. You've gotta be able to hit at least half the time.

At his size, I bet he could do this a dozen times a game against NCAA opponents.