TMS wrote:

PresIke wrote:again...

what was d'antoni suppossed to do given that reality, and nate's inability to be a legit, consistent pg at this point? douglas played well enough early on, but duhon was the guy he depended on, and hughes then filled the void for a bit, yet then hughes fell off/got injured and duhon played better.

i do hear hughes' frustration since he did work hard to get back, but he wasn't playing well and the knicks had nate sitting on the bench, ready for a second shot. on this team this year, with a desperate sense for winning games, that's the mantra....

you suck (and we have someone who might take your spot) you sit.

that's not always the mantra... Bender sucks, why is he not sitting? u don't think Jordan Hill can take his spot in the rotation? Nate during his benching? hell, even Toney Douglas has shown more of an ability to be a factor than Bender has... y'all are trying to make this so simple, but things aren't as black & white as you wanna imagine them.

I think MDA likes Bender for his D and length, and the fact that he can hit a J now and then. He would rather trust a vet who he can control, than someone like Hill, who he probably considers undisciplined.

Does not mean that Bender has to remain in the rotation- at some point MDA may see him as a liability and sit him down. I don't think he wants, or expects, much from Bender, to be honest, and at some point he may even assume the role Jeffries plays, if a trade is made.

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:i need to chill... so it's cool for kam to be a punk & incite arguments but not ok for me to respond... gotcha bro... i'll shut up now.

TMS, I don't read everything. All I see if you calling kam a moron in the post above. Telling Bip that he is acting high and mighty or whatever. Dropping the stupid comment in a lot of different places.

Why don't you just talk basketball instead of trying to characterize other people's posts or the posters themselves. I don't really read into any type of response that tries to deflect as you have done with the kam mention above; I am just asking directly to you.

martin, i make a ton of posts on this forum & take a ton of time explaining them so they're not misconstrued, & it's frustrating when posters decide to take potshots at my point of view with cheap cracks that overgeneralize & simplify the points i make that don't even show they comprehend what i'm talking about to begin with.

here you are asking me why i can't just talk basketball without characterizing other people's posts or the posters themselves, that's funny to me cuz the shoe is actually on the other foot here... there's posters like kam making separate threads calling people delusional for thinking this was a personal issue between Nate & MDA... you have posters like nixluva telling me i need to stop posting cuz my opinions are petty & lacking in any validity... Bip is asking me who cares when i present a case to why i objected over the devalueing of 1 of our best assets by our head coach & suggesting unless i've coached basketball in the past i'm incapable of comprehending the reasoning behind MDA's methods... i've also seen you belittling McK1's opinions on a regular basis during your debates about various issues in recent days... i decided to respond in kind by calling kam a moron for trying to incite an argument, but here you are regulating on me... seems a little bit of favoritism at work here martin... i think you're making this entirely too personal.

TMS wrote:

PresIke wrote:again...

what was d'antoni suppossed to do given that reality, and nate's inability to be a legit, consistent pg at this point? douglas played well enough early on, but duhon was the guy he depended on, and hughes then filled the void for a bit, yet then hughes fell off/got injured and duhon played better.

i do hear hughes' frustration since he did work hard to get back, but he wasn't playing well and the knicks had nate sitting on the bench, ready for a second shot. on this team this year, with a desperate sense for winning games, that's the mantra....

you suck (and we have someone who might take your spot) you sit.

that's not always the mantra... Bender sucks, why is he not sitting? u don't think Jordan Hill can take his spot in the rotation? Nate during his benching? hell, even Toney Douglas has shown more of an ability to be a factor than Bender has... y'all are trying to make this so simple, but things aren't as black & white as you wanna imagine them.

not trying to start a fire here, but you appear to be looking at things pretty black and white yourself too. does bender really suck? too me, he's a good source of rebounds and jumpshooting and looks pretty damn good for a guy whose been out of the league for 4 years and still working the rust off.

kam77 wrote:I made a strawman thread http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=33482 that TMS felt threatened by for some reason, even though he ended up agreeing with the point i was making in my thread originating post, that Nate is not suited to the system we are trying to employ under D'antoni. Why he self-selected himself as the guy i was attacking in my thread as delusional, that i have no idea.

& u subsequently chose to take potshots on other threads poking fun at anyone who thought this was a personal issue between MDA & Nate, which has been 1 of the main points i've been arguing this entire time... but yeah, you're a completely innocent player in all this kam.

nyk4ever wrote:

TMS wrote:

PresIke wrote:again...

what was d'antoni suppossed to do given that reality, and nate's inability to be a legit, consistent pg at this point? douglas played well enough early on, but duhon was the guy he depended on, and hughes then filled the void for a bit, yet then hughes fell off/got injured and duhon played better.

i do hear hughes' frustration since he did work hard to get back, but he wasn't playing well and the knicks had nate sitting on the bench, ready for a second shot. on this team this year, with a desperate sense for winning games, that's the mantra....

you suck (and we have someone who might take your spot) you sit.

that's not always the mantra... Bender sucks, why is he not sitting? u don't think Jordan Hill can take his spot in the rotation? Nate during his benching? hell, even Toney Douglas has shown more of an ability to be a factor than Bender has... y'all are trying to make this so simple, but things aren't as black & white as you wanna imagine them.

not trying to start a fire here, but you appear to be looking at things pretty black and white yourself too. does bender really suck? too me, he's a good source of rebounds and jumpshooting and looks pretty damn good for a guy whose been out of the league for 4 years and still working the rust off.

ok that's fair, i do take a black & white stance on players i think suck... but again, that doesn't counter the fact that this situation where MDA always plays the guys that are the most capable is not necessarily always the case... IMHO he picks & chooses certain guys who he finds the most able to coach... it's not always their performance on the floor all the time that determines his methods... i find him to have certain personal motivations behind his moves at times & i've explained why i think that over the past few days.

Hughes is allowed to blow of steam, but does he really have a valid argument in this case? How long does a coach have to go with a guy coming off injury before he goes against the "can't lose your job due to an injury" deal?

nixluva wrote:Well i've learned my lesson and will keep a cool head in this ongoing discussion. I think it's never been a players right to get playing time. PT is 100% up to a coach's discretion. The idea that an NBA coach owes PT to a guy is crazy. The thing is that after coming back from his injury Hughes hasn't been a factor. MDA also has the advantage of seeing the guys in practice every day. The things he sees we'll never know, but i'm sure that it factors in too.

Hughes is allowed to blow of steam, but does he really have a valid argument in this case? How long does a coach have to go with a guy coming off injury before he goes against the "can't lose your job due to an injury" deal?

i think it's a bigger issue than guys believing they are owed playing time... when u see scrub players out there that you KNOW you're better than getting minutes, it's gotta tug at your ego... when you're a veteran like Larry Hughes that's put up good numbers in the past, it's gotta effect u all the more, especially when you were a part of the recent resurgence that the team had had.

i agree that Hughes deserved to be benched cuz he was really struggling out there of late, but i don't think it should go on for any prolonged stretch, cuz he has shown he can be a productive player in the past... i think playing guys like Bender or Landry over Nate or Hughes is ridiculous, but that's just me... MDA says he doesn't want to insult veterans by giving them sporadic minutes but IMO that might be even more insulting to the players looking at it from their point of view to see journeymen reclamation projects & undrafted rookies getting minutes while they're riding pine.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:Well i've learned my lesson and will keep a cool head in this ongoing discussion. I think it's never been a players right to get playing time. PT is 100% up to a coach's discretion. The idea that an NBA coach owes PT to a guy is crazy. The thing is that after coming back from his injury Hughes hasn't been a factor. MDA also has the advantage of seeing the guys in practice every day. The things he sees we'll never know, but i'm sure that it factors in too.

Hughes is allowed to blow of steam, but does he really have a valid argument in this case? How long does a coach have to go with a guy coming off injury before he goes against the "can't lose your job due to an injury" deal?

i think it's a bigger issue than guys believing they are owed playing time... when u see scrub players out there that you KNOW you're better than getting minutes, it's gotta tug at your ego... when you're a veteran like Larry Hughes that's put up good numbers in the past, it's gotta effect u all the more, especially when you were a part of the recent resurgence that the team had had.

i agree that Hughes deserved to be benched cuz he was really struggling out there of late, but i don't think it should go on for any prolonged stretch, cuz he has shown he can be a productive player in the past... i think playing guys like Bender or Landry over Nate or Hughes is ridiculous, but that's just me... MDA says he doesn't want to insult veterans by giving them sporadic minutes but IMO that might be even more insulting to the players looking at it from their point of view to see journeymen reclamation projects & undrafted rookies getting minutes while they're riding pine.

Generally speaking, Landry has not gotten time over Hughes (except obviously in the blowout to Indiana, which is a rare case). So throw out that argument. Next, bender and Hughes play different positions, so those 2 should never be in the same sentence.

kam77 wrote:

TMS wrote:

kam77 wrote:I made a strawman thread http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=33482 that TMS felt threatened by for some reason, even though he ended up agreeing with the point i was making in my thread originating post, that Nate is not suited to the system we are trying to employ under D'antoni. Why he self-selected himself as the guy i was attacking in my thread as delusional, that i have no idea.

& u subsequently chose to take potshots on other threads poking fun at anyone who thought this was a personal issue between MDA & Nate, which has been 1 of the main points i've been arguing this entire time... but yeah, you're a completely innocent player in all this kam.

I can take any potshot anywhere but i never directly attacked anyone. Just said they're deluisional if they believe D'antoni would rather lose than play Nate because of personal nonsense.

who has ever said MDA would rather lose than play Nate?... i & a few others have said the benching was not entirely motivated by basketball reasons... there were big personal reasons behind the benching... correcting Nate's behavior & sending a message to the team that this type of behavior would not be tolerated are PERSONAL reasons... they're not entirely basketball related... if this was all about winning & nothing else, Chris Duhon would have been the first to be benched early in the year when he came into camp completely out of shape, unfocused & playing garbage basketball (just as Eddie Curry was told to stay away from the team for much of the same reasons)... don't give me this stuff that MDA had no one else to replace Duhon with at that point... a D-leaguer would have played better basketball than Duhon in November, but MDA stuck w/him cuz that's the guy he believed in... MDA gives a longer leash to guys who he believes are coachable & that he doesn't have to babysit... that has to do w/personalities & character, which are inherently related to the personal aspect.

TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:Well i've learned my lesson and will keep a cool head in this ongoing discussion. I think it's never been a players right to get playing time. PT is 100% up to a coach's discretion. The idea that an NBA coach owes PT to a guy is crazy. The thing is that after coming back from his injury Hughes hasn't been a factor. MDA also has the advantage of seeing the guys in practice every day. The things he sees we'll never know, but i'm sure that it factors in too.

Hughes is allowed to blow of steam, but does he really have a valid argument in this case? How long does a coach have to go with a guy coming off injury before he goes against the "can't lose your job due to an injury" deal?

i think it's a bigger issue than guys believing they are owed playing time... when u see scrub players out there that you KNOW you're better than getting minutes, it's gotta tug at your ego... when you're a veteran like Larry Hughes that's put up good numbers in the past, it's gotta effect u all the more, especially when you were a part of the recent resurgence that the team had had.

i agree that Hughes deserved to be benched cuz he was really struggling out there of late, but i don't think it should go on for any prolonged stretch, cuz he has shown he can be a productive player in the past... i think playing guys like Bender or Landry over Nate or Hughes is ridiculous, but that's just me... MDA says he doesn't want to insult veterans by giving them sporadic minutes but IMO that might be even more insulting to the players looking at it from their point of view to see journeymen reclamation projects & undrafted rookies getting minutes while they're riding pine.

Generally speaking, Landry has not gotten time over Hughes (except obviously in the blowout to Indiana, which is a rare case). So throw out that argument. Next, bender and Hughes play different positions, so those 2 should never be in the same sentence.

MDA was playing Gallo, Fishlips or Harrington at the 3 when Bender was on the floor... take Bender off the floor & u can go with a 3 guard rotation if u want, or u can play Hughes at the 2 & shift Chandler over to the 3... how does Bender seeing minutes over Hughes not factor here?

cause Hughes plays minutes at the 2 and the 1. And Bender has not and does not.

Bender has not taken away minutes from Hughes.