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Melo is at peace but still doesn't get it
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Bonn1997
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3/30/2017  11:09 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/30/2017  11:09 AM
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

Nothing silly about it. Its basically Melos career in a nutshell. It's the reason why he's never won much. I like Melo but I'm not gonna be mindless with it. It's time to move on from this not spend time arguing about it.

I find it ironic when someone comes to a discussion board to tell everyone, "I would respond thought fully but I'm not going to waste my time." It's kind of like joining a gym just for the food and saying "I would use the exercise equipment but I'm not going to waste my time"


We can have a discussion..Will you admit Amare was injured his last 3 years as a Knick???..Will you admit Tyson was not DPOY that year and DHow should have been???..No yopu will never admit to those things because it doesn't suit your argument..SPIN...

I had a feeling you'd basically trash all of the players I listed. You mentioned Ewing before. He had an all-star teammate only once in his entire prime and twice in his 17 seasons but he still took his teams far. Melo's teams basically go around .600 if you surround him with very good teammates and around .400 if you surround him with bad ones. You know what that sounds like? A low impact chucker.
Regarding the plus minus stat, I include it because of its simplicity. I do think looking at win shares and the player tracking data (especially for defense) is better. But I've never said you should ignore the +/- stats for any player.
AUTOADVERT
Nalod
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3/30/2017  11:10 AM
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:Ewing walked out on us.
Ewing should have left after 1996. WE should have traded him when Nellie came on board. We wanted to run and Ewing was not having any of it. For him to start the break means he could not finish and Patrick was not having any part of him not able to put up good numbers in a contract year.
I too was addicted to Ewing and could not imagine life without him!!! Heaven forbid we lost him for nothing. Then we continued to build around him trading picks for filler. Dispite that our 1999 team was pretty good but it was too late by then to move him for anything.

Lets not romanticize too much Ewing as some innocent flower that the media picked on. Yeah, he was a warrior and a great player. The huge ego fueled his greatness, but it also fueled his demise in NY.

Ewing was a NY treasure...He took the franchise to a place it hadnt been in 2 decades..he had an inflated view of himself, yes...It could have been handled differently...

yes, and Dolan rewarded him by firing Nellie, giving him neophyte JVG as he wanted, and a big new contract. Ewing was treated with massive respect by fans and knicks owner.
Problem was at that point in time, it was not a good basketball move. We both have the benefit of hindsight.

Sas and Timmy Duncan handled it great. Duncan went on a reduced contract so the team could benefit with cap space. It was a win-win. Back in the 90's we did not have the tax as we do now and in 1996 Ewing was still powerful. I get what happened but My point is fans rebel not on the star, but on the result. Melo accepted the Golden Mooby status and fans loved it. Most fans still love Melo. We talking a good basketball move, not the blame game.
Bonn1997
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3/30/2017  11:11 AM
holfresh wrote:Funny thing is that you guys don't think KP on on deck for the onslaught...Knick fans...

If KP is on a super max contract and makes only minimal improvements to his game over 15 seasons, he'll deserve it. Hopefully that won't happen!!! But there's no law that says that KP will never under any circumstance deserve criticism.
holfresh
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3/30/2017  11:11 AM
Knixkik wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
holfresh wrote:
martin wrote:
holfresh wrote:Funny thing is that you guys don't think KP on on deck for the onslaught...Knick fans...

this thread and then that post was so very predictable. Every time Melo is in discussion and viewed in a negative way, it's mere moments when you will deflect to posting about KP somehow. I knew it would happen as soon as I read the opening post.

Clearly Melo and Rose is being blamed for the way KP is playing..Are you denying that???..Let's put it all out there...

The way KP is playing? KP has been fantastic for a 2nd year player, age 21. If your expectations are superstar level player right now, that's your problem. Melo and Rose should be held to a higher standard than KP at this point. KP is 21 and just learning the NBA game.

Maybe you are having some reading problems...Where have I compared Melo and Rose to KP...KP is not as good and Melo and Rose..I wouldn't make that comparison...

You said "the way KP is playing", like he is not playing well. He has been fantastic for a 2nd year player.

He hasn't played well in January and February..Before this thread popped up..I was going to start a thread saying the Knicks are giving KP a trial run as the featured guy since switching to the triangle...They want to see what the net season could look like...But honestly, do you think the last two months was good for KP before they started featuring him as the number 1 option???
Knixkik
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3/30/2017  11:14 AM
holfresh wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
holfresh wrote:
martin wrote:
holfresh wrote:Funny thing is that you guys don't think KP on on deck for the onslaught...Knick fans...

this thread and then that post was so very predictable. Every time Melo is in discussion and viewed in a negative way, it's mere moments when you will deflect to posting about KP somehow. I knew it would happen as soon as I read the opening post.

Clearly Melo and Rose is being blamed for the way KP is playing..Are you denying that???..Let's put it all out there...

The way KP is playing? KP has been fantastic for a 2nd year player, age 21. If your expectations are superstar level player right now, that's your problem. Melo and Rose should be held to a higher standard than KP at this point. KP is 21 and just learning the NBA game.

Maybe you are having some reading problems...Where have I compared Melo and Rose to KP...KP is not as good and Melo and Rose..I wouldn't make that comparison...

You said "the way KP is playing", like he is not playing well. He has been fantastic for a 2nd year player.

He hasn't played well in January and February..Before this thread popped up..I was going to start a thread saying the Knicks are giving KP a trial run as the featured guy since switching to the triangle...They want to see what the net season could look like...But honestly, do you think the last two months was good for KP before they started featuring him as the number 1 option???

Well it was obvious he was injured during that time. He will need to learn how to adjust better to the 82-game schedule and overcome injuries. But i can't judge a player who was clearly limited by injuries. He has had a great year and when healthy, has taken a huge step forward.
holfresh
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3/30/2017  11:21 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

Nothing silly about it. Its basically Melos career in a nutshell. It's the reason why he's never won much. I like Melo but I'm not gonna be mindless with it. It's time to move on from this not spend time arguing about it.

I find it ironic when someone comes to a discussion board to tell everyone, "I would respond thought fully but I'm not going to waste my time." It's kind of like joining a gym just for the food and saying "I would use the exercise equipment but I'm not going to waste my time"


We can have a discussion..Will you admit Amare was injured his last 3 years as a Knick???..Will you admit Tyson was not DPOY that year and DHow should have been???..No yopu will never admit to those things because it doesn't suit your argument..SPIN...

I had a feeling you'd basically trash all of the players I listed. You mentioned Ewing before. He had an all-star teammate only once in his entire prime and twice in his 17 seasons but he still took his teams far. Melo's teams basically go around .600 if you surround him with very good teammates and around .400 if you surround him with bad ones. You know what that sounds like? A low impact chucker.
Regarding the plus minus stat, I include it because of its simplicity. I do think looking at win shares and the player tracking data (especially for defense) is better. But I've never said you should ignore the +/- stats for any player.

Bonn you alway do this...You act like the fact you present are in a vacuum and it's the only factors that affect what you are focused on...How on Earth can you compare Ewing situation to Melo..How on earth Bonn???????..Ewing had Pat Riley as a coach, one of the all time greats...Melo had 5 coaches in the last 6 years...You think that might be a factor??..Ewing ws on one of the all time great defensive teams, You think that might be a factor??..Ewing played with essentially the same core for years upon years, you think that might be a factor?? Ewibng knew what to expect from his front office and the style of play didn't change twice per season, you think that might be a factor???

Was Amare hurt the final three years as a Knick which impacted his career permanently??? You never answered in your lengthy response... Who ws the better defender the year Tyson won DPOY, Tyson or DHow???..Again, You never answered...
fishmike
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3/30/2017  11:22 AM
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

Those guys actually did it in a way that helped their teams win though (efficient scoring and/or a strong impact on both ends of the court). How many games these past years have we won where Melo scored 30 to 40? Those guys also could do this and pile up the assists - they weren't neglecting their teammates.
Harden gets 30 to 40 with remarkable efficiency due to his FT shooting. Westbrook and Kobe were able to get 30 to 40 with reasonably good efficiency and still save enough energy for outstanding defense and they were good at setting their teammates up. (And I shouldn't even need to explain MJ.)
The concern with Melo is that when he talks about a reduced role on offense, he's probably thinking taking 18 shots a game instead of 20. I've never seen him take a seriously reduced role. The best thing he could do would be take 12 or 13 high quality shots a game and then use his passing skills to improve his teammates, and save his energy for defense. He actually can be an excellent passer and good defender when he wants to be. The problem is not with his skills - it's his approach to the game. This hasn't changed in the past 14 years.

Well we can compare rosters position for position, you really want o go there???

Melo has had enough all-stars, award-winning teammates (DPOY, MVP candidate) that he should have been able to do much better than he has. Of course teammates matter but no, I will not say this is 100% due to his teammates or even close to that. Teammates can never be an excuse for poor shot selection and poor defense. As long as you have guys who can make a layup you should not be chucking off-balance mid range shots with 15 left on the shot clock.

????..Who, name them!!!

Are you serious? Are you actually watching? Billups, Stoudemire, Tyson, Iverson. Most teams don't have two all-stars but he has had an all-star teammate many seasons. And he's had plenty of competent non-all-star teammates too. He's had enough support that if he actually used his skill set intelligently (on both ends of the court), his teams would have done much better than .300 or so in the playoffs and .500 in the regular season. (I'm just estimating the career winning percentages.) He's had a max contract skill set with a poor mindset his whole career.


Hahaha...You are joking Bonn...You spin everything you type...You are in a world of spin to suit your argument...You spin every stat you want to promote like +/-...When will you get serious...I'm not going to waste my time telling Amare was injured which you know and Iverson was old...If you want a serious discussion, don't act like I'm an idiot..

And Melo got to the WCF with Billups...
You want to talk about Melo and playoffs? Sorry... this is all you need to know:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45742

So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.
Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum
I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.
These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5
Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.
His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24
What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.
Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.
To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.
Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?
Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

Been there, done that... holfesh is still hanging onto an Isiah comeback.

Sorry... Melo's abysmal playoff record is directly related to his poor play.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
holfresh
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3/30/2017  11:24 AM
Knixkik wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
holfresh wrote:
martin wrote:
holfresh wrote:Funny thing is that you guys don't think KP on on deck for the onslaught...Knick fans...

this thread and then that post was so very predictable. Every time Melo is in discussion and viewed in a negative way, it's mere moments when you will deflect to posting about KP somehow. I knew it would happen as soon as I read the opening post.

Clearly Melo and Rose is being blamed for the way KP is playing..Are you denying that???..Let's put it all out there...

The way KP is playing? KP has been fantastic for a 2nd year player, age 21. If your expectations are superstar level player right now, that's your problem. Melo and Rose should be held to a higher standard than KP at this point. KP is 21 and just learning the NBA game.

Maybe you are having some reading problems...Where have I compared Melo and Rose to KP...KP is not as good and Melo and Rose..I wouldn't make that comparison...

You said "the way KP is playing", like he is not playing well. He has been fantastic for a 2nd year player.

He hasn't played well in January and February..Before this thread popped up..I was going to start a thread saying the Knicks are giving KP a trial run as the featured guy since switching to the triangle...They want to see what the net season could look like...But honestly, do you think the last two months was good for KP before they started featuring him as the number 1 option???

Well it was obvious he was injured during that time. He will need to learn how to adjust better to the 82-game schedule and overcome injuries. But i can't judge a player who was clearly limited by injuries. He has had a great year and when healthy, has taken a huge step forward.

What ever happened, doesn't matter...Melo and Rose got the blame for the way he was playing...Rose was blamed for not creating for him and Melo was blamed for hogging the ball and not allowing KP to grow..It happened game thread after game thread..And you participated..You were one of the main accusers..Are you denying that????
holfresh
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3/30/2017  11:28 AM
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

Those guys actually did it in a way that helped their teams win though (efficient scoring and/or a strong impact on both ends of the court). How many games these past years have we won where Melo scored 30 to 40? Those guys also could do this and pile up the assists - they weren't neglecting their teammates.
Harden gets 30 to 40 with remarkable efficiency due to his FT shooting. Westbrook and Kobe were able to get 30 to 40 with reasonably good efficiency and still save enough energy for outstanding defense and they were good at setting their teammates up. (And I shouldn't even need to explain MJ.)
The concern with Melo is that when he talks about a reduced role on offense, he's probably thinking taking 18 shots a game instead of 20. I've never seen him take a seriously reduced role. The best thing he could do would be take 12 or 13 high quality shots a game and then use his passing skills to improve his teammates, and save his energy for defense. He actually can be an excellent passer and good defender when he wants to be. The problem is not with his skills - it's his approach to the game. This hasn't changed in the past 14 years.

Well we can compare rosters position for position, you really want o go there???

Melo has had enough all-stars, award-winning teammates (DPOY, MVP candidate) that he should have been able to do much better than he has. Of course teammates matter but no, I will not say this is 100% due to his teammates or even close to that. Teammates can never be an excuse for poor shot selection and poor defense. As long as you have guys who can make a layup you should not be chucking off-balance mid range shots with 15 left on the shot clock.

????..Who, name them!!!

Are you serious? Are you actually watching? Billups, Stoudemire, Tyson, Iverson. Most teams don't have two all-stars but he has had an all-star teammate many seasons. And he's had plenty of competent non-all-star teammates too. He's had enough support that if he actually used his skill set intelligently (on both ends of the court), his teams would have done much better than .300 or so in the playoffs and .500 in the regular season. (I'm just estimating the career winning percentages.) He's had a max contract skill set with a poor mindset his whole career.


Hahaha...You are joking Bonn...You spin everything you type...You are in a world of spin to suit your argument...You spin every stat you want to promote like +/-...When will you get serious...I'm not going to waste my time telling Amare was injured which you know and Iverson was old...If you want a serious discussion, don't act like I'm an idiot..

And Melo got to the WCF with Billups...
You want to talk about Melo and playoffs? Sorry... this is all you need to know:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45742

So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.
Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum
I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.
These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5
Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.
His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24
What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.
Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.
To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.
Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?
Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

Been there, done that... holfesh is still hanging onto an Isiah comeback.

Sorry... Melo's abysmal playoff record is directly related to his poor play.

Thank your for this..You are only helping my argument which I know you didn't intend to do...Those stats are telling you that Melo is usually the only option on his teams..His teams go as he goes...The series against Indiana, they double teamed him the entire series and who else stepped up???Shump, Knicks lost 4-2...Tyson Chandler got destroyed by Hibbet...
Bonn1997
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3/30/2017  11:30 AM
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

Nothing silly about it. Its basically Melos career in a nutshell. It's the reason why he's never won much. I like Melo but I'm not gonna be mindless with it. It's time to move on from this not spend time arguing about it.

I find it ironic when someone comes to a discussion board to tell everyone, "I would respond thought fully but I'm not going to waste my time." It's kind of like joining a gym just for the food and saying "I would use the exercise equipment but I'm not going to waste my time"


We can have a discussion..Will you admit Amare was injured his last 3 years as a Knick???..Will you admit Tyson was not DPOY that year and DHow should have been???..No yopu will never admit to those things because it doesn't suit your argument..SPIN...

I had a feeling you'd basically trash all of the players I listed. You mentioned Ewing before. He had an all-star teammate only once in his entire prime and twice in his 17 seasons but he still took his teams far. Melo's teams basically go around .600 if you surround him with very good teammates and around .400 if you surround him with bad ones. You know what that sounds like? A low impact chucker.
Regarding the plus minus stat, I include it because of its simplicity. I do think looking at win shares and the player tracking data (especially for defense) is better. But I've never said you should ignore the +/- stats for any player.

Bonn you alway do this...You act like the fact you present are in a vacuum and it's the only factors that affect what you are focused on...How on Earth can you compare Ewing situation to Melo..How on earth Bonn???????..Ewing had Pat Riley as a coach, one of the all time greats...Melo had 5 coaches in the last 6 years...You think that might be a factor??..Ewing ws on one of the all time great defensive teams, You think that might be a factor??..Ewing played with essentially the same core for years upon years, you think that might be a factor?? Ewibng knew what to expect from his front office and the style of play didn't change twice per season, you think that might be a factor???

Was Amare hurt the final three years as a Knick which impacted his career permanently??? You never answered in your lengthy response... Who ws the better defender the year Tyson won DPOY, Tyson or DHow???..Again, You never answered...

I was talking specifically about the all-star year of Amare. He was still pretty good when Melo was here that year. You're arguing Tyson was the 2nd best rather than the best defensive player? I'm not gonna nitpick about each teammate Melo has had. That's just silly. (And you're actually the one who brought Ewing into this.) The bottom line is that if you surround Melo with pretty good teammates, you'll have a .600 or slightly higher team. If you surround him with bad ones, a .400 or slightly lower team. That just doesn't impress me. It sounds like a low impact player. (Or really any random non-super star would probably be .600 with good teammates and .400 with bad ones.)
crzymdups
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3/30/2017  11:31 AM
holfresh wrote:Funny thing is that you guys don't think KP on on deck for the onslaught...Knick fans...

Yeah, I can see this happening as soon as next year if Melo is traded. We know it won't be the Triangle's fault.

¿ △ ?
nyk4ever
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3/30/2017  11:33 AM
Swishfm3 wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Not fair to compare players that play two completely different position.

Plus, if you look at Hardens career stats, you will see his Poins, Ast and rebounds have gone up every year since he has been with Houston so I wouldn't give MDA to much credit for his success.

i actually am giving MDA a ton of the credit. for the first time in hardens career, he had a coach that changed his position. this year harden has played PG 100% of the time he's been on the floor. prior to this year, he had played SG/SG 86% of his minutes and even 7% of his minutes at PF. so i do think mda deserves alot of the credit and so does harden for making the drastic change.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
nyk4ever
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3/30/2017  11:34 AM
nyk4ever wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

actually, funny you say that. the last time you said that to me, and i forget which thread it was now, but it was like a week ago? i responded directly to your post and what a surprise, you never answered. so maybe you should heed your own advice and holier than thou attitude.

and to be honest, if you "responded thoughtfully" (which btw is something you never do) you would be saying something negative about melo. so instead of doing that, you just deflect, to cover your own melo-loving ass. it's cool, we all see it man.

still waiting for a response holfresh. thanks. although, i dont think this surprises anyone. you deflect and run, every.single.time. but yet, i'm the one who "drops in" please. the irony is real.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Knixkik
Posts: 35754
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3/30/2017  11:36 AM
holfresh wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
holfresh wrote:
martin wrote:
holfresh wrote:Funny thing is that you guys don't think KP on on deck for the onslaught...Knick fans...

this thread and then that post was so very predictable. Every time Melo is in discussion and viewed in a negative way, it's mere moments when you will deflect to posting about KP somehow. I knew it would happen as soon as I read the opening post.

Clearly Melo and Rose is being blamed for the way KP is playing..Are you denying that???..Let's put it all out there...

The way KP is playing? KP has been fantastic for a 2nd year player, age 21. If your expectations are superstar level player right now, that's your problem. Melo and Rose should be held to a higher standard than KP at this point. KP is 21 and just learning the NBA game.

Maybe you are having some reading problems...Where have I compared Melo and Rose to KP...KP is not as good and Melo and Rose..I wouldn't make that comparison...

You said "the way KP is playing", like he is not playing well. He has been fantastic for a 2nd year player.

He hasn't played well in January and February..Before this thread popped up..I was going to start a thread saying the Knicks are giving KP a trial run as the featured guy since switching to the triangle...They want to see what the net season could look like...But honestly, do you think the last two months was good for KP before they started featuring him as the number 1 option???

Well it was obvious he was injured during that time. He will need to learn how to adjust better to the 82-game schedule and overcome injuries. But i can't judge a player who was clearly limited by injuries. He has had a great year and when healthy, has taken a huge step forward.

What ever happened, doesn't matter...Melo and Rose got the blame for the way he was playing...Rose was blamed for not creating for him and Melo was blamed for hogging the ball and not allowing KP to grow..It happened game thread after game thread..And you participated..You were one of the main accusers..Are you denying that????

I'm not denying anything. I have always supported Melo, but i am disappointed that he stopped passing this year. I am also disappointed that Rose doesn't pass much. Both took turns playing iso ball. I wanted them to draw attention and create plays for others. KP should have been the biggest benefactor. If they didn't deserve blame, they didn't make it easy either. It's tough playing in an offense with 2 players who stall the offense. Generally speaking, i believe your PG should make life easier for the big men, not harder.
crzymdups
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3/30/2017  11:37 AM
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

Those guys actually did it in a way that helped their teams win though (efficient scoring and/or a strong impact on both ends of the court). How many games these past years have we won where Melo scored 30 to 40? Those guys also could do this and pile up the assists - they weren't neglecting their teammates.
Harden gets 30 to 40 with remarkable efficiency due to his FT shooting. Westbrook and Kobe were able to get 30 to 40 with reasonably good efficiency and still save enough energy for outstanding defense and they were good at setting their teammates up. (And I shouldn't even need to explain MJ.)
The concern with Melo is that when he talks about a reduced role on offense, he's probably thinking taking 18 shots a game instead of 20. I've never seen him take a seriously reduced role. The best thing he could do would be take 12 or 13 high quality shots a game and then use his passing skills to improve his teammates, and save his energy for defense. He actually can be an excellent passer and good defender when he wants to be. The problem is not with his skills - it's his approach to the game. This hasn't changed in the past 14 years.

Well we can compare rosters position for position, you really want o go there???

Melo has had enough all-stars, award-winning teammates (DPOY, MVP candidate) that he should have been able to do much better than he has. Of course teammates matter but no, I will not say this is 100% due to his teammates or even close to that. Teammates can never be an excuse for poor shot selection and poor defense. As long as you have guys who can make a layup you should not be chucking off-balance mid range shots with 15 left on the shot clock.

????..Who, name them!!!

Are you serious? Are you actually watching? Billups, Stoudemire, Tyson, Iverson. Most teams don't have two all-stars but he has had an all-star teammate many seasons. And he's had plenty of competent non-all-star teammates too. He's had enough support that if he actually used his skill set intelligently (on both ends of the court), his teams would have done much better than .300 or so in the playoffs and .500 in the regular season. (I'm just estimating the career winning percentages.) He's had a max contract skill set with a poor mindset his whole career.


Hahaha...You are joking Bonn...You spin everything you type...You are in a world of spin to suit your argument...You spin every stat you want to promote like +/-...When will you get serious...I'm not going to waste my time telling Amare was injured which you know and Iverson was old...If you want a serious discussion, don't act like I'm an idiot..

And Melo got to the WCF with Billups...
You want to talk about Melo and playoffs? Sorry... this is all you need to know:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45742

So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.
Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum
I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.
These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5
Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.
His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24
What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.
Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.
To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.
Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?
Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

Been there, done that... holfesh is still hanging onto an Isiah comeback.

Sorry... Melo's abysmal playoff record is directly related to his poor play.

What about Chris Paul's? He's never even made the conference finals and he's had much better teammates than Melo and some consider him the best point guard of all time.

Melo is what he is. Anyone expecting him to magically turn into a point forward with great court vision and passing skills is delusional. His best season here? Woodson accepted what he was. Melo had a career low assist percentage. Knicks won 54 games. They "needed him to score 30 or 40" every night and he did and led the league in scoring.

These hissy fits you guys throw where you can't accept that Melo is a scorer are just getting sad. You know why he's not as good as he used to be? He's 33! He's been in the league 14 years! He's old. Jesus, you guys are a bunch of cry babies. Sure, it's all Melo's fault. Phil has valiantly been the best gm in the league and would've done great if it weren't for Melo. Gimme a ****in break.

You wanna compare Melo to Lebron or Harden? How about we compare Phil's gm record to Pat Riley's? Crickets, right?

¿ △ ?
holfresh
Posts: 38679
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3/30/2017  11:38 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

Nothing silly about it. Its basically Melos career in a nutshell. It's the reason why he's never won much. I like Melo but I'm not gonna be mindless with it. It's time to move on from this not spend time arguing about it.

I find it ironic when someone comes to a discussion board to tell everyone, "I would respond thought fully but I'm not going to waste my time." It's kind of like joining a gym just for the food and saying "I would use the exercise equipment but I'm not going to waste my time"


We can have a discussion..Will you admit Amare was injured his last 3 years as a Knick???..Will you admit Tyson was not DPOY that year and DHow should have been???..No yopu will never admit to those things because it doesn't suit your argument..SPIN...

I had a feeling you'd basically trash all of the players I listed. You mentioned Ewing before. He had an all-star teammate only once in his entire prime and twice in his 17 seasons but he still took his teams far. Melo's teams basically go around .600 if you surround him with very good teammates and around .400 if you surround him with bad ones. You know what that sounds like? A low impact chucker.
Regarding the plus minus stat, I include it because of its simplicity. I do think looking at win shares and the player tracking data (especially for defense) is better. But I've never said you should ignore the +/- stats for any player.

Bonn you alway do this...You act like the fact you present are in a vacuum and it's the only factors that affect what you are focused on...How on Earth can you compare Ewing situation to Melo..How on earth Bonn???????..Ewing had Pat Riley as a coach, one of the all time greats...Melo had 5 coaches in the last 6 years...You think that might be a factor??..Ewing ws on one of the all time great defensive teams, You think that might be a factor??..Ewing played with essentially the same core for years upon years, you think that might be a factor?? Ewibng knew what to expect from his front office and the style of play didn't change twice per season, you think that might be a factor???

Was Amare hurt the final three years as a Knick which impacted his career permanently??? You never answered in your lengthy response... Who ws the better defender the year Tyson won DPOY, Tyson or DHow???..Again, You never answered...

I was talking specifically about the all-star year of Amare. He was still pretty good when Melo was here that year. You're arguing Tyson was the 2nd best rather than the best defensive player? I'm not gonna nitpick about each teammate Melo has had. That's just silly. (And you're actually the one who brought Ewing into this.) The bottom line is that if you surround Melo with pretty good teammates, you'll have a .600 or slightly higher team. If you surround him with bad ones, a .400 or slightly lower team. That just doesn't impress me. It sounds like a low impact player. (Or really any random non-super star would probably be .600 with good teammates and .400 with bad ones.)

Amare was never healthy when playing with Melo..Amare got hurt around the all star break, right around the trade...I wasn't sure if it was the back or the knee...He wasn't able to play in the playoffs because of his back..Remember Marv Albert's call during a playoff game, "Melo is out there with 4 guys" against Boston???Amare never played...

Tyson wasn't second best either...Was LeBron alive that year, he was better too..If you push, I'm sure I can come up with as leave 5 other better defensive players..

You won't nitpick because its comical...
nyk4ever
Posts: 41010
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3/30/2017  11:39 AM
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

Those guys actually did it in a way that helped their teams win though (efficient scoring and/or a strong impact on both ends of the court). How many games these past years have we won where Melo scored 30 to 40? Those guys also could do this and pile up the assists - they weren't neglecting their teammates.
Harden gets 30 to 40 with remarkable efficiency due to his FT shooting. Westbrook and Kobe were able to get 30 to 40 with reasonably good efficiency and still save enough energy for outstanding defense and they were good at setting their teammates up. (And I shouldn't even need to explain MJ.)
The concern with Melo is that when he talks about a reduced role on offense, he's probably thinking taking 18 shots a game instead of 20. I've never seen him take a seriously reduced role. The best thing he could do would be take 12 or 13 high quality shots a game and then use his passing skills to improve his teammates, and save his energy for defense. He actually can be an excellent passer and good defender when he wants to be. The problem is not with his skills - it's his approach to the game. This hasn't changed in the past 14 years.

Well we can compare rosters position for position, you really want o go there???

Melo has had enough all-stars, award-winning teammates (DPOY, MVP candidate) that he should have been able to do much better than he has. Of course teammates matter but no, I will not say this is 100% due to his teammates or even close to that. Teammates can never be an excuse for poor shot selection and poor defense. As long as you have guys who can make a layup you should not be chucking off-balance mid range shots with 15 left on the shot clock.

????..Who, name them!!!

Are you serious? Are you actually watching? Billups, Stoudemire, Tyson, Iverson. Most teams don't have two all-stars but he has had an all-star teammate many seasons. And he's had plenty of competent non-all-star teammates too. He's had enough support that if he actually used his skill set intelligently (on both ends of the court), his teams would have done much better than .300 or so in the playoffs and .500 in the regular season. (I'm just estimating the career winning percentages.) He's had a max contract skill set with a poor mindset his whole career.


Hahaha...You are joking Bonn...You spin everything you type...You are in a world of spin to suit your argument...You spin every stat you want to promote like +/-...When will you get serious...I'm not going to waste my time telling Amare was injured which you know and Iverson was old...If you want a serious discussion, don't act like I'm an idiot..

And Melo got to the WCF with Billups...
You want to talk about Melo and playoffs? Sorry... this is all you need to know:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45742

So I was on basketball-reference.com and went through all his playoff game logs. I kept my criteria simple. 40% Shooting.
Folks have always said Melo's had to play tough teams, the West was loaded, cant hold him accountable for not beating the Spurs and Lakers etc when nobody was... we have been through it ad nauseum
I knew this year would show it pretty clearly but other years paint the same picture when you combine them.
These last playoffs:
Melo shoots +40%: Knicks are 5-1
Melo shoots -40%: Knicks are 1-5
Wow. I certainly blame JR's abysmal shooting as well, and I especially kill Chandler for gettig mowed over by Hibbert but when you look at the best player on the team hard to ignore that.
His career?
Melo shoots +40%: his teams are 15-17
Melo shoots -40%: his teams are 7-24
What is uterly shocking is that in 66 playoff games Melo has failed to shoot over 40% in 34 of them.
Melo had a monster year last year and Im hoping he picks up where he left off in that regard. But come post season something needs to give if the Knicks wants to have any chance of competing.
To me the only saving grace is defense. If we build a defensive monster we can still win regardless of this. In 2009 when Melo was playing with KMart, Nene, Billups and Dante Jones they had the formula to make it work.
Can Chandler, MWP, Shump and Felton match the defense those Denver guys were able to grind out?
Hard to see this team ever sustain a playoff run without an elite caliber defense...

Been there, done that... holfesh is still hanging onto an Isiah comeback.

Sorry... Melo's abysmal playoff record is directly related to his poor play.

What about Chris Paul's? He's never even made the conference finals and he's had much better teammates than Melo and some consider him the best point guard of all time.

Melo is what he is. Anyone expecting him to magically turn into a point forward with great court vision and passing skills is delusional. His best season here? Woodson accepted what he was. Melo had a career low assist percentage. Knicks won 54 games. They "needed him to score 30 or 40" every night and he did and led the league in scoring.

These hissy fits you guys throw where you can't accept that Melo is a scorer are just getting sad. You know why he's not as good as he used to be? He's 33! He's been in the league 14 years! He's old. Jesus, you guys are a bunch of cry babies. Sure, it's all Melo's fault. Phil has valiantly been the best gm in the league and would've done great if it weren't for Melo. Gimme a ****in break.

You wanna compare Melo to Lebron or Harden? How about we compare Phil's gm record to Pat Riley's? Crickets, right?

i'm kinda jumping in on this, so sorry for doing that. but.... how come when we talk about melo and his faults, you bring up phil? melo's track record (here and elsewhere) dates long before phil entered the equation.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
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3/30/2017  11:41 AM
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

Nothing silly about it. Its basically Melos career in a nutshell. It's the reason why he's never won much. I like Melo but I'm not gonna be mindless with it. It's time to move on from this not spend time arguing about it.

I find it ironic when someone comes to a discussion board to tell everyone, "I would respond thought fully but I'm not going to waste my time." It's kind of like joining a gym just for the food and saying "I would use the exercise equipment but I'm not going to waste my time"


We can have a discussion..Will you admit Amare was injured his last 3 years as a Knick???..Will you admit Tyson was not DPOY that year and DHow should have been???..No yopu will never admit to those things because it doesn't suit your argument..SPIN...

I had a feeling you'd basically trash all of the players I listed. You mentioned Ewing before. He had an all-star teammate only once in his entire prime and twice in his 17 seasons but he still took his teams far. Melo's teams basically go around .600 if you surround him with very good teammates and around .400 if you surround him with bad ones. You know what that sounds like? A low impact chucker.
Regarding the plus minus stat, I include it because of its simplicity. I do think looking at win shares and the player tracking data (especially for defense) is better. But I've never said you should ignore the +/- stats for any player.

Bonn you alway do this...You act like the fact you present are in a vacuum and it's the only factors that affect what you are focused on...How on Earth can you compare Ewing situation to Melo..How on earth Bonn???????..Ewing had Pat Riley as a coach, one of the all time greats...Melo had 5 coaches in the last 6 years...You think that might be a factor??..Ewing ws on one of the all time great defensive teams, You think that might be a factor??..Ewing played with essentially the same core for years upon years, you think that might be a factor?? Ewibng knew what to expect from his front office and the style of play didn't change twice per season, you think that might be a factor???

Was Amare hurt the final three years as a Knick which impacted his career permanently??? You never answered in your lengthy response... Who ws the better defender the year Tyson won DPOY, Tyson or DHow???..Again, You never answered...

I was talking specifically about the all-star year of Amare. He was still pretty good when Melo was here that year. You're arguing Tyson was the 2nd best rather than the best defensive player? I'm not gonna nitpick about each teammate Melo has had. That's just silly. (And you're actually the one who brought Ewing into this.) The bottom line is that if you surround Melo with pretty good teammates, you'll have a .600 or slightly higher team. If you surround him with bad ones, a .400 or slightly lower team. That just doesn't impress me. It sounds like a low impact player. (Or really any random non-super star would probably be .600 with good teammates and .400 with bad ones.)

Amare was never healthy when playing with Melo..Amare got hurt around the all star break, right around the trade...I wasn't sure if it was the back or the knee...He wasn't able to play in the playoffs because of his back..Remember Marv Albert's call during a playoff game, "Melo is out there with 4 guys" against Boston???Amare never played...

Tyson wasn't second best either...Was LeBron alive that year, he was better too..If you push, I'm sure I can come up with as leave 5 other better defensive players..

You won't nitpick because its comical...

Tyson was the best Knicks teammate Melo ever had. They won 54 games together. But even that season, Tyson disappeared in the playoffs with the sniffles. I loved Tyson but his annual playoffs disappearance was really bizarre. Of course in hindsight, the "true Knicks fans" blame Melo for Tyson disappearing.

¿ △ ?
holfresh
Posts: 38679
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3/30/2017  11:43 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/30/2017  11:48 AM
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:Ewing walked out on us.
Ewing should have left after 1996. WE should have traded him when Nellie came on board. We wanted to run and Ewing was not having any of it. For him to start the break means he could not finish and Patrick was not having any part of him not able to put up good numbers in a contract year.
I too was addicted to Ewing and could not imagine life without him!!! Heaven forbid we lost him for nothing. Then we continued to build around him trading picks for filler. Dispite that our 1999 team was pretty good but it was too late by then to move him for anything.

Lets not romanticize too much Ewing as some innocent flower that the media picked on. Yeah, he was a warrior and a great player. The huge ego fueled his greatness, but it also fueled his demise in NY.

Ewing was a NY treasure...He took the franchise to a place it hadnt been in 2 decades..he had an inflated view of himself, yes...It could have been handled differently...

yes, and Dolan rewarded him by firing Nellie, giving him neophyte JVG as he wanted, and a big new contract. Ewing was treated with massive respect by fans and knicks owner.
Problem was at that point in time, it was not a good basketball move. We both have the benefit of hindsight.

Sas and Timmy Duncan handled it great. Duncan went on a reduced contract so the team could benefit with cap space. It was a win-win. Back in the 90's we did not have the tax as we do now and in 1996 Ewing was still powerful. I get what happened but My point is fans rebel not on the star, but on the result. Melo accepted the Golden Mooby status and fans loved it. Most fans still love Melo. We talking a good basketball move, not the blame game.

Nellie was coaching drunk at the Garden, fact, Come on man....Actually rumor, not fact..Can't find it..
Nalod
Posts: 72096
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Member: #508
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3/30/2017  11:45 AM
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

Nothing silly about it. Its basically Melos career in a nutshell. It's the reason why he's never won much. I like Melo but I'm not gonna be mindless with it. It's time to move on from this not spend time arguing about it.

I find it ironic when someone comes to a discussion board to tell everyone, "I would respond thought fully but I'm not going to waste my time." It's kind of like joining a gym just for the food and saying "I would use the exercise equipment but I'm not going to waste my time"


We can have a discussion..Will you admit Amare was injured his last 3 years as a Knick???..Will you admit Tyson was not DPOY that year and DHow should have been???..No yopu will never admit to those things because it doesn't suit your argument..SPIN...

I had a feeling you'd basically trash all of the players I listed. You mentioned Ewing before. He had an all-star teammate only once in his entire prime and twice in his 17 seasons but he still took his teams far. Melo's teams basically go around .600 if you surround him with very good teammates and around .400 if you surround him with bad ones. You know what that sounds like? A low impact chucker.
Regarding the plus minus stat, I include it because of its simplicity. I do think looking at win shares and the player tracking data (especially for defense) is better. But I've never said you should ignore the +/- stats for any player.

Bonn you alway do this...You act like the fact you present are in a vacuum and it's the only factors that affect what you are focused on...How on Earth can you compare Ewing situation to Melo..How on earth Bonn???????..Ewing had Pat Riley as a coach, one of the all time greats...Melo had 5 coaches in the last 6 years...You think that might be a factor??..Ewing ws on one of the all time great defensive teams, You think that might be a factor??..Ewing played with essentially the same core for years upon years, you think that might be a factor?? Ewibng knew what to expect from his front office and the style of play didn't change twice per season, you think that might be a factor???

Was Amare hurt the final three years as a Knick which impacted his career permanently??? You never answered in your lengthy response... Who ws the better defender the year Tyson won DPOY, Tyson or DHow???..Again, You never answered...

Coach's during Ewings time with knicks

Hubie Brown
Bob Hill
Rick Pitino
Stu Jackson
John McCloud
Pat Riley
Don Nelson
Jeff Van Gundy.

Lets be accurate when we romance the past. Not saying Melo or ewing ate all his coaches. Do we only count the games Riley and JVG coached?
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Melo is at peace but still doesn't get it
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