knicks1248 wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I think Phil has been clear that this is a process. He is creating institutional knowledge of the triangle. I'm hopeful they put it all together and stay healthy. I cautiously optimistic.
I am concerned that it will take too long this year to put it all together.
Meanwhile, teams like GS are dynamic. Championship is the goal. But more building blocks is fine also.

My own main concern is that they won't stay the course and learn the Triangle properly.

Winning isn't the top priority for me.

Instead, I just want to see some of the effortless (seeming), flowing beauty of Triangle games again.

And if we get that consistently enough, we'll also get plenty of winning -- not to worry.

I'm satisfied with Noah (although I really hated, like Phil Jackson, to lose Lopez).

Lee and Jennings seem like identifiable pieces for a successful Triangle team.

I was sorry to lose Williams as he sort of fit the (informal) requirement of having
one talented, but sort of spaced out player on a Triangle team.

Rose is the player I'm least convinced about.

I don't see that he's ever had a Triangle skill set.

Worse . . . he doesn't seem to have much of a Triangle mind set, either.

I hope Jackson can pull some of his motivational magic on him . . .

Are you kidding me, winning is the #1 priority. I don't give a damn what they run, just win the damn game..

Enough of this process/culture sht, winning cures everything

I hadn't thought of that. I agree. Forget everything else. They should just win. Somebody send a memo to the other 29 teams. The Knicks will not be developing a team this year. Instead we elect to just win.

EwingsGlass wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I don't see this as a Triangle dis-thread. I see it as a factual disproof of an assumption that has been used to skew many arguments om this board for the entire offseason. That assumption has been that there will be no learning curve because Thibodeau uses the triangle so that both Rose and Noah are already familiar.

That assertion is factually inaccurate because Rose verbatim says "its complicated because it is new to us. It is foreign".

So, while you can argue that Rose and Noah are going to gel better than Gary Payton and Karl Malone did in LA, you cannot say it is a non issue because they already know triangle. Rose does not.

All evidence indicates there is a learning curve.

Thank you . . .

Let me simply say this. If a new coach comes in and there isn't a learning curve, that coach sucks. Unless you are from the Mike DAntoni school of coaching which runs 2 plays:
1) cmon cmon cmon!!!!
and of course our favorite
2) lets go lets go lets go!

So yea... The NEW coach, is going to be teaching the players a NEW system. Based on prior experience some may have some experience some may not.

When we are 15 games in or so and our record stinks and our PGs are playing like they don't know what to do lets chat then. This whole thread is based on a one line comment after the 2nd day of training camp. Then we get a thread jumping on Nix saying SEE!!!! I TOLD YOU!!!!

Sheesh.

Sigh.

That learning curve played a big part in us being one of the worst teams in the league the last few seasons. The Triangle isnt easy to learn, never has never been. All EwingsGlass is saying is that this issue remains. To what degree with Hornacek blending in more familiar schemes, remains to be seen. Not really sigh worthy IMO.

I don't want to get into what you think he's saying. What he is saying is he wants to crucify nixluva over a passing comment. Premeditated whining in the 1st degree

If I thought crucifixtion on an chat board would result in the redemption of all our tortured souls, I would. I am saying Nix has argued Triangle purism until disproven. The he argues quick learning curve. Other say it's complex. Players and coach say it's complex. So, now we a broadened to everything is triangle. Basic rules. Space the floor... I am saying Horny will optimize efficient shots through ANY means possible. SSOL, shot chart optimization. He will implement a dynamic offense to complete the half court set, but it is complex. It will take time.

STOP paraphrasing and putting words in my mouth!!! If you have specific quotes then use them. Otherwise you can exaggerate and make stuff up that I didn't say!!! My posts on the subject are extensive and there's no reason to try and make it seem like I've been unreasonable. Just because you don't agree with the facts I've posted doesn't make it right to attack me.

Malcolm wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I think Phil has been clear that this is a process. He is creating institutional knowledge of the triangle. I'm hopeful they put it all together and stay healthy. I cautiously optimistic.
I am concerned that it will take too long this year to put it all together.
Meanwhile, teams like GS are dynamic. Championship is the goal. But more building blocks is fine also.

My own main concern is that they won't stay the course and learn the Triangle properly.

Winning isn't the top priority for me.

Instead, I just want to see some of the effortless (seeming), flowing beauty of Triangle games again.

And if we get that consistently enough, we'll also get plenty of winning -- not to worry.

I'm satisfied with Noah (although I really hated, like Phil Jackson, to lose Lopez).

Lee and Jennings seem like identifiable pieces for a successful Triangle team.

I was sorry to lose Williams as he sort of fit the (informal) requirement of having
one talented, but sort of spaced out player on a Triangle team.

Rose is the player I'm least convinced about.

I don't see that he's ever had a Triangle skill set.

Worse . . . he doesn't seem to have much of a Triangle mind set, either.

I hope Jackson can pull some of his motivational magic on him . . .

the problem with rose is that he has shown that he doesn't always take good shots and that he doesn't create good shots for others. the triangle offense is meant to lessen bad shots in general. so while it's okay to push the ball in transition-- something we all agree rose should be doing-- it's important that rose be discouraged by the coach from indulging in the same poor habits that made him so overrated in the first place. if rose is allowed to torpedo the triangle that will mean the knicks will underachieve.

my understanding of the triangle is that you must push the ball in order to set it up, and then you have about 10-12 seconds to run it. that means everyone must have their wind up. moreover, it's an inside-out offense. after those 10-12 seconds have elapsed, THEN is the time to run the pick and roll. and if the pick and roll isn't working, only THEN do you go isolation, which is usually the lowest-percentage shot of the four options you have.

unfortunately, we are hearing a lot more about pick and roll basketball right now, which could mean that hornacek is going to run the pick and roll more often at the *beginning* of possessions, upsetting the prioritization i outlined. if that is the case, i believe there will be a higher probability of disarray....

dk7th wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I think Phil has been clear that this is a process. He is creating institutional knowledge of the triangle. I'm hopeful they put it all together and stay healthy. I cautiously optimistic.
I am concerned that it will take too long this year to put it all together.
Meanwhile, teams like GS are dynamic. Championship is the goal. But more building blocks is fine also.

My own main concern is that they won't stay the course and learn the Triangle properly.

Winning isn't the top priority for me.

Instead, I just want to see some of the effortless (seeming), flowing beauty of Triangle games again.

And if we get that consistently enough, we'll also get plenty of winning -- not to worry.

I'm satisfied with Noah (although I really hated, like Phil Jackson, to lose Lopez).

Lee and Jennings seem like identifiable pieces for a successful Triangle team.

I was sorry to lose Williams as he sort of fit the (informal) requirement of having
one talented, but sort of spaced out player on a Triangle team.

Rose is the player I'm least convinced about.

I don't see that he's ever had a Triangle skill set.

Worse . . . he doesn't seem to have much of a Triangle mind set, either.

I hope Jackson can pull some of his motivational magic on him . . .

the problem with rose is that he has shown that he doesn't always take good shots and that he doesn't create good shots for others. the triangle offense is meant to lessen bad shots in general. so while it's okay to push the ball in transition-- something we all agree rose should be doing-- it's important that rose be discouraged by the coach from indulging in the same poor habits that made him so overrated in the first place. if rose is allowed to torpedo the triangle that will mean the knicks will underachieve.

my understanding of the triangle is that you must push the ball in order to set it up, and then you have about 10-12 seconds to run it. that means everyone must have their wind up. moreover, it's an inside-out offense. after those 10-12 seconds have elapsed, THEN is the time to run the pick and roll. and if the pick and roll isn't working, only THEN do you go isolation, which is usually the lowest-percentage shot of the four options you have.

unfortunately, we are hearing a lot more about pick and roll basketball right now, which could mean that hornacek is going to run the pick and roll more often at the *beginning* of possessions, upsetting the prioritization i outlined. if that is the case, i believe there will be a higher probability of disarray....

Just so we're clear, a PnR is always an option in the Triangle! It's merely a two man game which could easily be done by swinging the ball to the Pinch Post side of the floor opposite the Side Triangle side of the floor OR the PG can ALWAYS call the Triangle post player out to set a pick!!! There's literally nothing stopping a PnR being run at any point in the offense. The key being that the coach prioritized it in the first place.

dk7th wrote:The problem with rose is that he has shown that he doesn't always take good shots and that he doesn't create good shots for others. the triangle offense is meant to lessen bad shots in general. so while it's okay to push the ball in transition-- something we all agree rose should be doing --

it's important that rose be discouraged by the coach from indulging in the same poor habits that made him so overrated in the first place. if rose is allowed to torpedo the triangle that will mean the knicks will underachieve.

my understanding of the triangle is that you must push the ball in order to set it up, and then you have about 10-12 seconds to run it. that means everyone must have their wind up. moreover, it's an inside-out offense. after those 10-12 seconds have elapsed, THEN is the time to run the pick and roll. and if the pick and roll isn't working, only THEN do you go isolation, which is usually the lowest-percentage shot of the four options you have.

Ufortunately, we are hearing a lot more about pick and roll basketball right now, which could mean that hornacek is going to run the pick and roll more often at the *beginning* of possessions, upsetting the prioritization i outlined. if that is the case, i believe there will be a higher probability of disarray....

Exactly my opinion . . .

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I think Phil has been clear that this is a process. He is creating institutional knowledge of the triangle. I'm hopeful they put it all together and stay healthy. I cautiously optimistic.
I am concerned that it will take too long this year to put it all together.
Meanwhile, teams like GS are dynamic. Championship is the goal. But more building blocks is fine also.

My own main concern is that they won't stay the course and learn the Triangle properly.

Winning isn't the top priority for me.

Instead, I just want to see some of the effortless (seeming), flowing beauty of Triangle games again.

And if we get that consistently enough, we'll also get plenty of winning -- not to worry.

I'm satisfied with Noah (although I really hated, like Phil Jackson, to lose Lopez).

Lee and Jennings seem like identifiable pieces for a successful Triangle team.

I was sorry to lose Williams as he sort of fit the (informal) requirement of having
one talented, but sort of spaced out player on a Triangle team.

Rose is the player I'm least convinced about.

I don't see that he's ever had a Triangle skill set.

Worse . . . he doesn't seem to have much of a Triangle mind set, either.

I hope Jackson can pull some of his motivational magic on him . . .

the problem with rose is that he has shown that he doesn't always take good shots and that he doesn't create good shots for others. the triangle offense is meant to lessen bad shots in general. so while it's okay to push the ball in transition-- something we all agree rose should be doing-- it's important that rose be discouraged by the coach from indulging in the same poor habits that made him so overrated in the first place. if rose is allowed to torpedo the triangle that will mean the knicks will underachieve.

my understanding of the triangle is that you must push the ball in order to set it up, and then you have about 10-12 seconds to run it. that means everyone must have their wind up. moreover, it's an inside-out offense. after those 10-12 seconds have elapsed, THEN is the time to run the pick and roll. and if the pick and roll isn't working, only THEN do you go isolation, which is usually the lowest-percentage shot of the four options you have.

unfortunately, we are hearing a lot more about pick and roll basketball right now, which could mean that hornacek is going to run the pick and roll more often at the *beginning* of possessions, upsetting the prioritization i outlined. if that is the case, i believe there will be a higher probability of disarray....

Just so we're clear, a PnR is always an option in the Triangle! It's merely a two man game which could easily be done by swinging the ball to the Pinch Post side of the floor opposite the Side Triangle side of the floor OR the PG can ALWAYS call the Triangle post player out to set a pick!!! There's literally nothing stopping a PnR being run at any point in the offense. The key being that the coach prioritized it in the first place.

you're merely presenting a circular argument here: sure the pick and roll game *can* happen anytime during a possession. but just because it *can* does not mean that it *should*. the point is that the triangle motions *should* be the priority over the pick and roll so that the inside-out nature, passing big man nature, is given first priority, NOT the pick and roll.

here is what must be prioritized:

1)push the ball in transition
2)play a five-man game
3)play a two-man game
4)go isolaton

You CLEARLY did not understand a thing that I wrote!!! You don't have to BREAK the offense in order to include PnR in the Triangle! The option is always there in the flow of the offense! The 2nd option after the post feed in the Side Triangle is to pass and go to the other side and run Pinch Post. From Pinch Post you can run several 2 man options including PnR. That also can lead right into ISO, which can again go right into Side Triangle! You never have to break the offense if you work on the options. In fact this is exactly how the Spurs do it.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I think Phil has been clear that this is a process. He is creating institutional knowledge of the triangle. I'm hopeful they put it all together and stay healthy. I cautiously optimistic.
I am concerned that it will take too long this year to put it all together.
Meanwhile, teams like GS are dynamic. Championship is the goal. But more building blocks is fine also.

My own main concern is that they won't stay the course and learn the Triangle properly.

Winning isn't the top priority for me.

Instead, I just want to see some of the effortless (seeming), flowing beauty of Triangle games again.

And if we get that consistently enough, we'll also get plenty of winning -- not to worry.

I'm satisfied with Noah (although I really hated, like Phil Jackson, to lose Lopez).

Lee and Jennings seem like identifiable pieces for a successful Triangle team.

I was sorry to lose Williams as he sort of fit the (informal) requirement of having
one talented, but sort of spaced out player on a Triangle team.

Rose is the player I'm least convinced about.

I don't see that he's ever had a Triangle skill set.

Worse . . . he doesn't seem to have much of a Triangle mind set, either.

I hope Jackson can pull some of his motivational magic on him . . .

the problem with rose is that he has shown that he doesn't always take good shots and that he doesn't create good shots for others. the triangle offense is meant to lessen bad shots in general. so while it's okay to push the ball in transition-- something we all agree rose should be doing-- it's important that rose be discouraged by the coach from indulging in the same poor habits that made him so overrated in the first place. if rose is allowed to torpedo the triangle that will mean the knicks will underachieve.

my understanding of the triangle is that you must push the ball in order to set it up, and then you have about 10-12 seconds to run it. that means everyone must have their wind up. moreover, it's an inside-out offense. after those 10-12 seconds have elapsed, THEN is the time to run the pick and roll. and if the pick and roll isn't working, only THEN do you go isolation, which is usually the lowest-percentage shot of the four options you have.

unfortunately, we are hearing a lot more about pick and roll basketball right now, which could mean that hornacek is going to run the pick and roll more often at the *beginning* of possessions, upsetting the prioritization i outlined. if that is the case, i believe there will be a higher probability of disarray....

Just so we're clear, a PnR is always an option in the Triangle! It's merely a two man game which could easily be done by swinging the ball to the Pinch Post side of the floor opposite the Side Triangle side of the floor OR the PG can ALWAYS call the Triangle post player out to set a pick!!! There's literally nothing stopping a PnR being run at any point in the offense. The key being that the coach prioritized it in the first place.

you're merely presenting a circular argument here: sure the pick and roll game *can* happen anytime during a possession. but just because it *can* does not mean that it *should*. the point is that the triangle motions *should* be the priority over the pick and roll so that the inside-out nature, passing big man nature, is given first priority, NOT the pick and roll.

here is what must be prioritized:

1)push the ball in transition
2)play a five-man game
3)play a two-man game
4)go isolaton

You CLEARLY did not understand a thing that I wrote!!! You don't have to BREAK the offense in order to include PnR in the Triangle! The option is always there in the flow of the offense! The 2nd option after the post feed in the Side Triangle is to pass and go to the other side and run Pinch Post. From Pinch Post you can run several 2 man options including PnR. That also can lead right into ISO, which can again go right into Side Triangle! You never have to break the offense if you work on the options. In fact this is exactly how the Spurs do it.

you're wrong. as soon as the pick and roll is initiated in a possession the off-the-ball screens and cuts off those back screens (in order to receive a pass) will cease. in other words, the triangle offense is a screening and cutting offense not a screening and rolling offense.

Pinch Post is already going to lead to a Drag Screen, dribble hand off, PnR or ISO or depending on what the defense does ANOTHER PASS! You're NEVER out of the offense if you're doing it right. I'm not sure why you think the Triangle doesn't include PnR or any other option for that matter.

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I don't see this as a Triangle dis-thread. I see it as a factual disproof of an assumption that has been used to skew many arguments om this board for the entire offseason. That assumption has been that there will be no learning curve because Thibodeau uses the triangle so that both Rose and Noah are already familiar.

That assertion is factually inaccurate because Rose verbatim says "its complicated because it is new to us. It is foreign".

So, while you can argue that Rose and Noah are going to gel better than Gary Payton and Karl Malone did in LA, you cannot say it is a non issue because they already know triangle. Rose does not.

All evidence indicates there is a learning curve.

Thank you . . .

Let me simply say this. If a new coach comes in and there isn't a learning curve, that coach sucks. Unless you are from the Mike DAntoni school of coaching which runs 2 plays:
1) cmon cmon cmon!!!!
and of course our favorite
2) lets go lets go lets go!

So yea... The NEW coach, is going to be teaching the players a NEW system. Based on prior experience some may have some experience some may not.

When we are 15 games in or so and our record stinks and our PGs are playing like they don't know what to do lets chat then. This whole thread is based on a one line comment after the 2nd day of training camp. Then we get a thread jumping on Nix saying SEE!!!! I TOLD YOU!!!!

Sheesh.

Sigh.

That learning curve played a big part in us being one of the worst teams in the league the last few seasons. The Triangle isnt easy to learn, never has never been. All EwingsGlass is saying is that this issue remains. To what degree with Hornacek blending in more familiar schemes, remains to be seen. Not really sigh worthy IMO.

I don't want to get into what you think he's saying. What he is saying is he wants to crucify nixluva over a passing comment. Premeditated whining in the 1st degree

If I thought crucifixtion on an chat board would result in the redemption of all our tortured souls, I would. I am saying Nix has argued Triangle purism until disproven. The he argues quick learning curve. Other say it's complex. Players and coach say it's complex. So, now we a broadened to everything is triangle. Basic rules. Space the floor... I am saying Horny will optimize efficient shots through ANY means possible. SSOL, shot chart optimization. He will implement a dynamic offense to complete the half court set, but it is complex. It will take time.

STOP paraphrasing and putting words in my mouth!!! If you have specific quotes then use them. Otherwise you can exaggerate and make stuff up that I didn't say!!! My posts on the subject are extensive and there's no reason to try and make it seem like I've been unreasonable. Just because you don't agree with the facts I've posted doesn't make it right to attack me.

But it's ok to attack you Nixluva...

They want to fight the voice of reason and positivity just to further exaggerate our futile franchise. That's what they want. That's what keeps them satisfied. Bowchikawahwah

I'm not fighting the voice of reason. I'm fighting pure data dredging and party line homerism that chastises anyone who disagrees with his absolute optimism. You want specifics, let us start with this:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=54297

Here, I argue that the triangle spacing needs to be adjusted to account for the 3pt line. Nix responds directly that the triangle has threes. This follows a pattern of him stating that Triangle is the best, it is just not fully implemented.

Compare that with this:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=54472

Here, Nix posts an article where Phil Jax admits they have to adjust triangle spacing to take advantage of the three point line. Nix reponds to the article claiming this has been what he has been saying the entire time. That the three point line can be adjusted in the triangle. Really, Nix? Didnt you say triangle worked but it just needed better implementation.

But see, here also

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=54331&page=2

Nix argues that historically, Phil wins without the threes, so who need them? The discussion is about an article where Hornacek is talking about taking more efficient shots. Specifically taking less of the long twos that the triangle optimizes.

That's why this Rose comment is interesting. It is another moment where Nix, who has been all over Malcolm, was just flat wrong. But will not admit it. Per Nix, last year we were rebuilding and learning triangle takes time. This year we are in win now, and despite turning over a significant portion of the roster, per Nix, learning triangle will be easy because the new players are familiar cause Thibodeau is a triangle coach. Except, per Derrick Rose, he is not familiar. But, now that we are established to be in win now, we don't have time to learn, so, the players will learn faster.

So, am I all over you, Nix? I don't like having anyone's well thought out posts stifled before any discussion because you want to tell Malcolm, me and everyone else that have any doubts that we all just dont know triangle. You were wrong and your reliance on triangle charts doesn't change that.

I don't hate your optimisim. I enjoy it. But, let others have their doubts. Critical thinking is an absolutely necessity to improve.

Malcolm wrote:

dk7th wrote:running the triangle is a five-man game; running the pick and roll is a two-man game. when you slip into the two-man game the five-man game is no longer happening. the other three players either have to prepare to get back on defense or try and grab a rebound. why? because the pick and roll is likely to end up in a shot attempt. pick and roll is a very simple thing to execute, provided the pick is set properly. but in its simplicity you also have a kind of crutch for a team to lean on, a team that does not have the cohesiveness or patience to work as a unit for the 10-14 seconds the triangle requires, and that lack of cohesion will be due to the players' not having the basketball iq to execute the triangle. it requires lots of reps and lots of practice before it becomes natural and instinctive. the payoffs are likely to be big, because no defense can keep up with ball movement and player movement all game.

And the concern is . . . not so much about Hornacek (Jackson can lean on him, if necessary), but
about Rose, specifically, that he not think he can get by with learning just a little Triangle.

A little bit of Triangle is NOT good enough.

ALL of the Knicks need to commit to it 100% NOW . . . and everyone needs to know that everyone
else is committed to it.

I just don't see it going in that direction yet . . .

nixluva wrote:EwingGlass please stop already! This is really petty at this point. You're cherry picking a few statements out of a bunch of conversations across a pretty good length of time but my points OVERALL have remained the same. The Triangle is a SYSTEM and it's highly flexible. The Triangle has been tweaked over many decades and small changes are actually not hard to make. Coaches have been doing it for a long time.

I'm not the one who is fixated on minor points!!! All I've tried to do is provide insight and facts. Uptempo, 3's and yes even PnR have always been part of the offense and the degree to which anything is done depends on the coach and the players you have. You can add things or take them away and still the Triangle System can survive just fine. Because... BASKETBALL!!! That is as simple as I can make my point.

Your argument style requires response. I generalized and you asked that I be specific. I am specific and you berate me for being petty and nitpicking. What you are really saying is "Let me be right" without challenge.

So, here is where you are right. I think you are well informed, knowledgeable and your optimism is contagious. You consistently post detailed and informative links that I find beneficial to my understanding of the game. I am only critical because you sometimes blindly preach triangle and pro-Knick establishment propaganda without considering the fact that critical analysis may be important both for this team, it's players and the system. Critique is warranted and often correct. [/Rant]