OKC wants to "rebuild" - let's saddle NY with these albatross contracts. "Yeah, NO we don't want contracts back - we're rebuilding."

GSW may have to begin managing their out-of=control spending - let's dump useless role players to NY and let them rebuild our roster. "OK, if *you* insist we take MR too, well...."

Charlotte drafted a drug addict and overpaid a PG - whooooa, time to call NY! "We'll pay for Monk's rehab!"

Melo needs a safety net in case Portland decides not to resign him - fire up the fanbase who hate Phil... poor Melo had to put up with what? Basketball geometry! Why I outta...

ESPN is working day and night to feed their "analysts" zingers to hurl at the Knicks FO because whatever. "Hell, they thought they were going to sign FVV, hahahahahahahahah!"

Most of us are adult enough here to have been around this block of Horse manure many times over.

We finally have cap space, picks, and a fresh FO to begin to right the wrongs.

If we prune ruthlessly, defy the odds in draft picking, and make a judicious trade or two we'll be ok. But no, no more hallucinogens.

TripleThreat wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

John Hollinger is suggesting:

Mitchell Robinson
2020 8th Overall
For
Kevon Looney
Jordan Poole
2020 2nd Overall
Additional heavily protected first round pick from Warriors (not in 2021, likely the 2022 pick)

So the Knicks would trade MR and replace him with Looney who is largely a role player at GS surrounded by super-stars. In NY Looney adds what value?

Poole? who?

Those are more than fair questions. I'll step out of myself for a second and look to mirror what I suspect Hollinger is thinking -

https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmurray/2020/10/04/will-the-golden-state-warriors-pay-the-price-for-another-championship/#437f9ba6f934

Oct 4, 2020,12:30pm EDT
Will The Golden State Warriors Pay The Price For Another Championship?
Patrick Murray

.....Approximately 40% of the league’s revenues derive from fans attending games in-person. The NBA is working hard to find ways to ensure at least part of next season can involve fans, but this is not a variable that is in their control. The Warriors are even more exposed than most - ESPN’s Brian Windhorst has reported that around 80% of their revenues come via Chase Center.

The Warriors are facing enormous luxury tax bills

In the best-case scenario, the league and players’ association are able to negotiate a deal with the salary cap fixed at current levels of spending. This would mean a cap of $109.14m and a tax line of $132.6m.

For the Golden State Warriors that best-case scenario is still crippling financially. Just with the contracts they have on the books next year, including the second pick in the 2020 Draft, the Warriors will be paying around $157.5m in player salaries. That is $25m over the luxury tax threshold, meaning a tax bill of around $63.75m, and a total payroll and tax bill of $221.25m.

Add in the TPE and taxpayer Mid Level Exception (MLE), expected to be around $5.7m, and their salaries jump to around $177.5m. That is $45m over the tax threshold, meaning their salary tax bill jumps up by $100m to a whopping $163.75m. Overall they’d be on the hook for around $341m if they use all the tools they can to build a championship contender.

....But they have also made financially driven choices recently, most notably trading away a host of players at the trade deadline back in February, including D’Angelo Russell, to duck under the luxury tax line this season. This meant they will avoid the “repeater tax” in the 2021 season, which increases the tax penalties for teams repeatedly over the luxury tax. That has turned out to be a huge positive, potentially saving them as much as $45m.

Faced with this double-whammy of sky-high luxury tax bills and up to 80% of their revenues at risk, what will the Warriors do? Can they use all the tools at their disposal to put a winning team on the floor, most notably their $17.2m TPE?

....

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/cap/

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/07/rookie-scale-salaries-for-2019-first-round-picks.html

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/mitchell-robinson-27002/

2nd Overall Pick : $8,730,240 $9,166,800 $9,603,360 $12,119,440 $15,815,870 QO Total: $39,619,840

8th Overall Pick : $4,862,040 $5,105,160 $5,348,280 $6,803,012 $9,170,460 QO Total: $22,118,492

For the Warriors, they save about 8 million in salary that would be subject to the luxury tax. They would save in tax in aggregate consider the difference between the 8th versus the 2nd overall picks given 120 percent of rookie slotting.

They would get two young players who add to their defense ( Let's say they pick Vassell) They get a big who looks like he can handle other elite bigs defensively who is dirt cheap for two more years and has some seasoning. MRob is a solid rim runner so he can keep pace with the Warriors heavy ball movement. If MRob breaks out a little, maybe he's a better enticement in a future trade for Greek Freak. I can see why the Warriors would be open. They get younger, cheaper, and more defensive.

What Hollinger is not saying is what if the Knicks trade that 2nd overall? This could easily turn into a three team trade, with the Knicks as a bridge team for another franchise who didn't have the right pieces to get the 2nd overall outright.

Let's say they drop back to 4th or 5th overall and pick up something else?

Or lower and more picks and/or players?

I like MRob personally, but I can the see the argument to sell high on a player who might be foul prone and won't be able to space the floor the rest of his career facing a big payday soon against a general market dive on his positional value at center. You can get a replacement level pivot in Tier 5 of free agency. I recognize MRob is far better than that, but one has to look at whether the big future dollars to MRob might be used better elsewhere.

What if it converts to:

Mitchell Robinson
2020 8th Overall
For
Kevon Looney
Jordan Poole
2020 4th or 5th Overall
Additional draft asset/young player
Additional draft asset/young player
Additional heavily protected first round pick from Warriors (not in 2021, likely the 2022 pick)

I did a deep dive on Jordan Poole a few days ago

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=61265

2020-21 Salary: $2,063,280
2021-22: $2,161,440
2022-23:$3,901,399
2023-24 Qualifying Offer:$5,813,085

Poole and Looney would be immediate starters. Looney is battle tested, he has limitations but he's been in a stable organization for a while now. Poole gives you a cheap three year starter who might do well entering into his prime years. He had a bad rookie year but there are some decent tools there.

Personally I'm a little mixed on it right now myself, but I can see Hollinger's methodology at work. It becomes a more interesting question if you add a third team.

TripleThreat wrote:

https://lonzowire.usatoday.com/2020/10/08/lamelo-ball-news-knicks-warriors-2020-nba-draft-trade/

https://warriorswire.usatoday.com/2020/02/17/updated-warriors-future-draft-picks-following-the-nba-trade-deadline/

The Athletic's John Hollinger proposes Warriors-Knicks trade for No. 2 pick
Jacob Rude
October 8, 2020 2:35 pm

The New York Knicks are one of the more intriguing teams heading into the off-season. A new regime in the front office and a new coach could easily lead to a shake-up of a team that finished 21-45 last season.

The Knicks roster is a mash-up of talented players that do not fit together, making them terrific trade candidates. The Athletic’s Mike Vorkunov and John Hollinger took that idea and ran with it recently, putting together an entire article of Knicks trades.

Naturally, a deal involving the No. 2 pick came up and featured a more robust trade package than many others proposed before. While some have included Mitchell Robinson as a sweetener from the Knicks, Hollinger felt that alone didn’t make sense in the deal.

“Would a deal like that — (Kevon) Looney, (Jordan) Poole and the No. 2 pick for (Mitchell) Robinson and the No. 8 pick, with an additional first from the Warriors — be more palatable from New York’s perspective?”

Kevon Looney and Jordan Poole are two interesting players for the Knicks to take on. Poole had an up-and-down rookie season but would be a great fit on a Knicks team lacking guards. Looney would initially add to the dearth of bigs on the team but eating his contract to move up to the No. 2 pick is still worthwhile.

Moving up to the No. 2 pick should allow the Knicks the chance to draft LaMelo Ball

Below is an updated look at the Golden State’s draft picks for the next three seasons, according to RealGM.com.

2020:

-Golden State Warriors own first-round pick ( 2nd Overall)

-Dallas Mavericks second-round pick ( 48th)

-Utah Jazz second-round pick (51st)

2021:

-Golden State Warriors own first-round pick

-Minnesota Timberwolves first-round pick (protected top-3)

-Denver Nuggets second-round pick

-Minnesota Timberwolves second-round pick

2022:

-Golden State Warriors own first-round pick

-Golden State Warriors own second-round pick

-Toronto Raptors second-round pick

John Hollinger is suggesting:

Mitchell Robinson
2020 8th Overall
For
Kevon Looney
Jordan Poole
2020 2nd Overall
Additional heavily protected first round pick from Warriors (not in 2021, likely the 2022 pick)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/looneke01.html

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/kevon-looney-17858/

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/poolejo01.html

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/jordan-poole-31587

Thoughts?

Hell no

TripleThreat wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

John Hollinger is suggesting:

Mitchell Robinson
2020 8th Overall
For
Kevon Looney
Jordan Poole
2020 2nd Overall
Additional heavily protected first round pick from Warriors (not in 2021, likely the 2022 pick)

So the Knicks would trade MR and replace him with Looney who is largely a role player at GS surrounded by super-stars. In NY Looney adds what value?

Poole? who?

Those are more than fair questions. I'll step out of myself for a second and look to mirror what I suspect Hollinger is thinking -

https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmurray/2020/10/04/will-the-golden-state-warriors-pay-the-price-for-another-championship/#437f9ba6f934

Oct 4, 2020,12:30pm EDT
Will The Golden State Warriors Pay The Price For Another Championship?
Patrick Murray

.....Approximately 40% of the league’s revenues derive from fans attending games in-person. The NBA is working hard to find ways to ensure at least part of next season can involve fans, but this is not a variable that is in their control. The Warriors are even more exposed than most - ESPN’s Brian Windhorst has reported that around 80% of their revenues come via Chase Center.

The Warriors are facing enormous luxury tax bills

In the best-case scenario, the league and players’ association are able to negotiate a deal with the salary cap fixed at current levels of spending. This would mean a cap of $109.14m and a tax line of $132.6m.

For the Golden State Warriors that best-case scenario is still crippling financially. Just with the contracts they have on the books next year, including the second pick in the 2020 Draft, the Warriors will be paying around $157.5m in player salaries. That is $25m over the luxury tax threshold, meaning a tax bill of around $63.75m, and a total payroll and tax bill of $221.25m.

Add in the TPE and taxpayer Mid Level Exception (MLE), expected to be around $5.7m, and their salaries jump to around $177.5m. That is $45m over the tax threshold, meaning their salary tax bill jumps up by $100m to a whopping $163.75m. Overall they’d be on the hook for around $341m if they use all the tools they can to build a championship contender.

....But they have also made financially driven choices recently, most notably trading away a host of players at the trade deadline back in February, including D’Angelo Russell, to duck under the luxury tax line this season. This meant they will avoid the “repeater tax” in the 2021 season, which increases the tax penalties for teams repeatedly over the luxury tax. That has turned out to be a huge positive, potentially saving them as much as $45m.

Faced with this double-whammy of sky-high luxury tax bills and up to 80% of their revenues at risk, what will the Warriors do? Can they use all the tools at their disposal to put a winning team on the floor, most notably their $17.2m TPE?

....

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/cap/

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/07/rookie-scale-salaries-for-2019-first-round-picks.html

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/mitchell-robinson-27002/

2nd Overall Pick : $8,730,240 $9,166,800 $9,603,360 $12,119,440 $15,815,870 QO Total: $39,619,840

8th Overall Pick : $4,862,040 $5,105,160 $5,348,280 $6,803,012 $9,170,460 QO Total: $22,118,492

For the Warriors, they save about 8 million in salary that would be subject to the luxury tax. They would save in tax in aggregate consider the difference between the 8th versus the 2nd overall picks given 120 percent of rookie slotting.

They would get two young players who add to their defense ( Let's say they pick Vassell) They get a big who looks like he can handle other elite bigs defensively who is dirt cheap for two more years and has some seasoning. MRob is a solid rim runner so he can keep pace with the Warriors heavy ball movement. If MRob breaks out a little, maybe he's a better enticement in a future trade for Greek Freak. I can see why the Warriors would be open. They get younger, cheaper, and more defensive.

What Hollinger is not saying is what if the Knicks trade that 2nd overall? This could easily turn into a three team trade, with the Knicks as a bridge team for another franchise who didn't have the right pieces to get the 2nd overall outright.

Let's say they drop back to 4th or 5th overall and pick up something else?

Or lower and more picks and/or players?

I like MRob personally, but I can the see the argument to sell high on a player who might be foul prone and won't be able to space the floor the rest of his career facing a big payday soon against a general market dive on his positional value at center. You can get a replacement level pivot in Tier 5 of free agency. I recognize MRob is far better than that, but one has to look at whether the big future dollars to MRob might be used better elsewhere.

What if it converts to:

Mitchell Robinson
2020 8th Overall
For
Kevon Looney
Jordan Poole
2020 4th or 5th Overall
Additional draft asset/young player
Additional draft asset/young player
Additional heavily protected first round pick from Warriors (not in 2021, likely the 2022 pick)

I did a deep dive on Jordan Poole a few days ago

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=61265

2020-21 Salary: $2,063,280
2021-22: $2,161,440
2022-23:$3,901,399
2023-24 Qualifying Offer:$5,813,085

Poole and Looney would be immediate starters. Looney is battle tested, he has limitations but he's been in a stable organization for a while now. Poole gives you a cheap three year starter who might do well entering into his prime years. He had a bad rookie year but there are some decent tools there.

Personally I'm a little mixed on it right now myself, but I can see Hollinger's methodology at work. It becomes a more interesting question if you add a third team.

Good discussion. Let's unpack it even more.

The first assertion is that MR is at peak trade value to teams like the GSW because of their tax implications. The corollary argument is that MR is unlikely to maintain his on-court value once he qualifies for a larger contract (in essence, he's worth more in trade than as a long-term building block).

That's worth thinking about. And for anyone who thinks that's true the question really is, who gives us the best trade for MR (GSW included).

The other question is all about trading to draft earlier. If I'm trading MR, its not for a draft pick in this year's draft and its not for a rotation role player either.

The other topic you brought up earlier which probably deserves revisiting is whether or not Wiggins is worth targeting as a trade target.

TripleThreat wrote:

fwk00 wrote:
Good discussion. Let's unpack it even more.

The first assertion is that MR is at peak trade value to teams like the GSW because of their tax implications. The corollary argument is that MR is unlikely to maintain his on-court value once he qualifies for a larger contract (in essence, he's worth more in trade than as a long-term building block).

That's worth thinking about. And for anyone who thinks that's true the question really is, who gives us the best trade for MR (GSW included).

The other question is all about trading to draft earlier. If I'm trading MR, its not for a draft pick in this year's draft and its not for a rotation role player either.

The other topic you brought up earlier which probably deserves revisiting is whether or not Wiggins is worth targeting as a trade target.

Steph Curry is 32. What the Warriors have to think about is contention in the next two years. Curry will profile out to a very long career, but the biggest question is the amount of "gravity" he creates for the rest of the offense, that will decline faster.

I think the Warriors would worry about the long term MRob question when it happened, i.e. they'd use him to contend for two years then figure it out ( maybe their cap situation changes enough where they can sign and trade him after 2 years) or trade him in a year after trying to see what value he has on the court for a single season contention run.

New York Knicks/MRob
2019-20 $1,559,712
2020-21 $1,663,861
2021-22 $1,802,057 (Team Option)

Two years is a long time in the sports world. If the Warriors can get one ring out of the next two years, I think they'd find it worth it if they lost MRob to free agency for nothing down the road. If it came to that.

Boston and OKC have the most draft capital. Eastern teams will want to trade to Western teams, so OKC would be the team with the most options. Essentially any team in the West in a contention window and near cap locked will like MRob. They want something to neutralize Anthony Davis.

I don't think trading to draft earlier would be the main goal in moving MRob, if the Knicks spent a 2nd rounder (36th) and basically 3 million on MRob for two years and his production value, and use that to convert him to a couple of replacement level starters plus multiple draft assets, that's quite a bit of return for a 2nd round pick.

This team needs volume. Quantity as well as quality.

Wiggins would only work as a 3 or 4 team deal where the Knicks are the 3rd or 4th team offering some type of cap relief. That would mean the third team would have to be the Wizards ( Beal_), Bucks (Greek Freak) or 76ers (Simmons). Is there a four team Wizards/76ers/Warriors/Knicks trade possible? I don't know.

I think a Knicks/Warriors/Cavs or Bulls trade, as an extension of the Hollinger trade, is more feasible.

Personally I like MRob quite a bit. I think he has true DPOY potential, esp with Thibs. But I also recognize the desire to split him into multiple assets.

I don't understand why we finally have a player with upside, and we want to trade him for question marks.

Can we just pencil in Mitchell as our C, and look to fill other holes?

It was one thing to trade KP, another thing to trade a player happy to be here, who is developing nicely and locked in on a team friendly contract.

franco12 wrote:Can we just pencil in Mitchell as our C, and look to fill other holes?

It was one thing to trade KP, another thing to trade a player happy to be here, who is developing nicely and locked in on a team friendly contract.

This is also a fair question.

Everyone in the NBA is for trade. Depends on what it would cost. And what someone will offer.

One of my former coaches, his cousin was an NHL guy. So his cousin was knee deep in the trade where the Edmonton Oilers traded Wayne Gretzky to the LA Kings. Back then, the Oilers were one of the most potent dynasties in sports history. Gretzky, Messier, Coffey, Lowe, Fuhr, Moog, Kurri, that team was terrifying.

I like MRob. I think he can be a legit DPOY candidate. But I'll also say, "Depends on the offer"

MRob did stuff in college that will always hurt him perception wise. He has to carry that weight. It can be seen as fair or unfair but it's what happens. Shane Battier never took money at Duke. He could have but didn't. That carried into his post playing career and his opportunities with analytics. Everything follows you when you come up for a big money long term deal. Other elite players could do dirty and not have it hurt them for their big contracts, but MRob isn't in that same talent bracket.

Nalod wrote:If Our braintrust thinks Wiseman is the real deal and his ceiling higher than MRob then yes. The 8 and MRob for Wiseman if those parameters meet.

Whoa! Back that truck up.

I can see MRob and #27 for Wiseman if that's really a thing. MRob is both proven and inexpensive - he's not a throw-in. AND, if the FO is damned sure about Wiseman being the guy they want - sure sweeten the deal to get it done but you definitely want to hang onto #8.

Lateral trades (with a loss of the experience and maturity of MR) isn't going to move the needle. You need a score at #8.

fwk00 wrote:

Nalod wrote:If Our braintrust thinks Wiseman is the real deal and his ceiling higher than MRob then yes. The 8 and MRob for Wiseman if those parameters meet.

Whoa! Back that truck up.

I can see MRob and #27 for Wiseman if that's really a thing. MRob is both proven and inexpensive - he's not a throw-in. AND, if the FO is damned sure about Wiseman being the guy they want - sure sweeten the deal to get it done but you definitely want to hang onto #8.

Lateral trades (with a loss of the experience and maturity of MR) isn't going to move the needle. You need a score at #8.

The market will set the price. If your GSW you think MRob is your starter on. Championship club? Or end of gamer? GSW I would think wants a starter. LIke I said, you have to be in love with Wiseman to do this. If this is the case what are other teams willing to do?
GSW also has to think they can get a rotational player with the 8th pick.
Rob is not a throw in but the 8th pick is not that valuable this year. For that matter I’m not sure Minny does not take him. Maybe we do a deal with them? Mitch can be next to KAT up front and they can get a decent player at 8th.
But I don’t make the market for 1-2 picks and I can’t tell you whole lot about Ball or Wiseman as we don’t have much. I’d have to think Payne Recruited him a bit although he was destined for Memphis. He, along with Perrin, Bryant and Perry all can lend their opinions on Rose. Since nobody knows what WWW really does perhaps he just installs kiddy porn into Myers internet account and extorts the trade that way.