holfresh wrote:I think an apology for the product they paid handsomely to watch nightly is also in order...

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think an apology for the product they paid handsomely to watch nightly is also in order...

well lets be fair.. thats another thing we have seen from this management. All other regimes in the past it was "we like our team" or "we are always looking to improve" or equally empty things. Phil says we stink and give the BB gods heartburn. I mean sounds weird but thats a breath of fresh air. We are terrible and have work to do.

Phil said he was trying to make the playoffs with the product out of training camp...He wasn't even close so he decided to clean house...Fisher has just been awful..Phil said he traded for Calderon because he fits what he is trying to do..Later he said he was trying to trade Calderon but there were no takers..What GM does that to a player by the way...I'm not under any illusions, I'm scared..The plan changes on a whim...But hey, I'm rooting for him and Fisher...

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think rushing to get the "disruptive" TYSON Chandler out of the lockerroom did anything for this current lockerroom

No but you wanted it to happen also. In fact you started a thread on that...
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=46979

If you look back a year ago there is plenty more:
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=47019
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=47041

Briggs is another who kills the Tyson trade but last year he was pining to dump Tyson for the first chance at a pick in the bottom of the first round.

The trade didnt work out, but as you can see from the above nobody, NOBODY was saying Tyson needs a better environment. Tyson will bounce back, Tyson will get healthy, bla bla bla. Sorry folks.. you all wanted him dumped. Meanwhile this time last year Calderon was the starting PG on a 50 win team in the West shooting 45% from 3 and was a very good floor general for that team. You guys can pretend you were kicking and screaming but you werent. This was not a bad trade at face value. God forbid Early or Thanisis pop and Tyson is an afterthought.

Im sure when we jettison Calderon and he's back to shooting 45% from 3 and playing really well for some other team there will be a new list of excuses.

This is where they all go back and edit

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think an apology for the product they paid handsomely to watch nightly is also in order...

well lets be fair.. thats another thing we have seen from this management. All other regimes in the past it was "we like our team" or "we are always looking to improve" or equally empty things. Phil says we stink and give the BB gods heartburn. I mean sounds weird but thats a breath of fresh air. We are terrible and have work to do.

Phil said he was trying to make the playoffs with the product out of training camp...He wasn't even close so he decided to clean house...Fisher has just been awful..Phil said he traded for Calderon because he fits what he is trying to do..Later he said he was trying to trade Calderon but there were no takers..What GM does that to a player by the way...I'm not under any illusions, I'm scared..The plan changes on a whim...But hey, I'm rooting for him and Fisher...

I don't have a problem with a go changing course when his plan A has failed- to me that's the smart thing to do, and I don't see why he gets blasted for that. Fish hasn't shown anything this season, but I'll give him a pass as it's his first season and he has an awful roster and injuries- hopefully he improves next season or we're in trouble.

I don't regard the shump and Jr trade as a mistake- JR had negative value so we used shump to get rid of him. JR had a plantar fascia tear and shump always seemed to get injured (see last year at the trade deadline) so it was a risk holding onto them any longer.

Tyson trade, I never liked Calderón, but I'll see how Early and the Greek kid turn out (and Larkin). It's funny- the posters who say how important picks are completely ignore the fact we got those players and pretend the trade was just tyson for Calderón. I was glad to get rid of Felton, and Calderón is only an extra 3mil I think a year, which is okay for a backup of who can shoot.

I'll judge Phil after this offseason- that's the true test, up until now he didn't have much to work with. If we end up with a top 3 pick and some nice off-season free agents then I'm pleased.

I don't buy the JR and Shump had zero value..That's Knick fan talk..No one has value on their teams...They suggested trading Melo for a pick when The Nuggets got two 1st for Moz...We could and should have gotten something in return...They have made Cleveland a contender...I'm hoping for the best...

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think an apology for the product they paid handsomely to watch nightly is also in order...

well lets be fair.. thats another thing we have seen from this management. All other regimes in the past it was "we like our team" or "we are always looking to improve" or equally empty things. Phil says we stink and give the BB gods heartburn. I mean sounds weird but thats a breath of fresh air. We are terrible and have work to do.

Phil said he was trying to make the playoffs with the product out of training camp...He wasn't even close so he decided to clean house...Fisher has just been awful..Phil said he traded for Calderon because he fits what he is trying to do..Later he said he was trying to trade Calderon but there were no takers..What GM does that to a player by the way...I'm not under any illusions, I'm scared..The plan changes on a whim...But hey, I'm rooting for him and Fisher...

I don't have a problem with a go changing course when his plan A has failed- to me that's the smart thing to do, and I don't see why he gets blasted for that. Fish hasn't shown anything this season, but I'll give him a pass as it's his first season and he has an awful roster and injuries- hopefully he improves next season or we're in trouble.

I don't regard the shump and Jr trade as a mistake- JR had negative value so we used shump to get rid of him. JR had a plantar fascia tear and shump always seemed to get injured (see last year at the trade deadline) so it was a risk holding onto them any longer.

Tyson trade, I never liked Calderón, but I'll see how Early and the Greek kid turn out (and Larkin). It's funny- the posters who say how important picks are completely ignore the fact we got those players and pretend the trade was just tyson for Calderón. I was glad to get rid of Felton, and Calderón is only an extra 3mil I think a year, which is okay for a backup of who can shoot.

I'll judge Phil after this offseason- that's the true test, up until now he didn't have much to work with. If we end up with a top 3 pick and some nice off-season free agents then I'm pleased.

I don't buy the JR and Shump had zero value..That's Knick fan talk..No one has value on their teams...They suggested trading Melo for a pick when The Nuggets got two 1st for Moz...We could and should have gotten something in return...They have made Cleveland a contender...I'm hoping for the best...

If Jr had value then why didn't Phil trade him for that value? Do you really think someone offered a first for him, and he went- nah, I'd rather trade him for nothing! I agree with you in the sense that Jr could always contribute in the right situation, but unfortunately other gms don't see that until it happens. That's my biggest issue with the criticism on Phil's trades- people say we should and could have gotten more without actually knowing if he could have gotten more, because there were no leaks about alternative offers. So really you're left with: should we have traded them for what we did, or kept them.

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think an apology for the product they paid handsomely to watch nightly is also in order...

well lets be fair.. thats another thing we have seen from this management. All other regimes in the past it was "we like our team" or "we are always looking to improve" or equally empty things. Phil says we stink and give the BB gods heartburn. I mean sounds weird but thats a breath of fresh air. We are terrible and have work to do.

Phil said he was trying to make the playoffs with the product out of training camp...He wasn't even close so he decided to clean house...Fisher has just been awful..Phil said he traded for Calderon because he fits what he is trying to do..Later he said he was trying to trade Calderon but there were no takers..What GM does that to a player by the way...I'm not under any illusions, I'm scared..The plan changes on a whim...But hey, I'm rooting for him and Fisher...

I don't have a problem with a go changing course when his plan A has failed- to me that's the smart thing to do, and I don't see why he gets blasted for that. Fish hasn't shown anything this season, but I'll give him a pass as it's his first season and he has an awful roster and injuries- hopefully he improves next season or we're in trouble.

I don't regard the shump and Jr trade as a mistake- JR had negative value so we used shump to get rid of him. JR had a plantar fascia tear and shump always seemed to get injured (see last year at the trade deadline) so it was a risk holding onto them any longer.

Tyson trade, I never liked Calderón, but I'll see how Early and the Greek kid turn out (and Larkin). It's funny- the posters who say how important picks are completely ignore the fact we got those players and pretend the trade was just tyson for Calderón. I was glad to get rid of Felton, and Calderón is only an extra 3mil I think a year, which is okay for a backup of who can shoot.

I'll judge Phil after this offseason- that's the true test, up until now he didn't have much to work with. If we end up with a top 3 pick and some nice off-season free agents then I'm pleased.

I don't buy the JR and Shump had zero value..That's Knick fan talk..No one has value on their teams...They suggested trading Melo for a pick when The Nuggets got two 1st for Moz...We could and should have gotten something in return...They have made Cleveland a contender...I'm hoping for the best...

If Jr had value then why didn't Phil trade him for that value? Do you really think someone offered a first for him, and he went- nah, I'd rather trade him for nothing! I agree with you in the sense that Jr could always contribute in the right situation, but unfortunately other gms don't see that until it happens. That's my biggest issue with the criticism on Phil's trades- people say we should and could have gotten more without actually knowing if he could have gotten more, because there were no leaks about alternative offers. So really you're left with: should we have traded them for what we did, or kept them.

I think JR and Shump was a quick dump after Fish started getting booed in January...Phil was just buying time because fans will then think we were tanking which is what happened...As a Knick fan, we always seem to come out on the losing ends of trades because we seem to do a panic trade...We all but announce we will get rid of these players and then wonder why we don't get value in return...Everyone knew that we would move Felton and Tyson at the end of the season...We got Calderon and a 2nd round pick back..

So you think that had we kept Tyson, we couldn't get anything from Cleveland for him??..Or that Cleveland can't get anything in return for JR or Shump now??

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think an apology for the product they paid handsomely to watch nightly is also in order...

well lets be fair.. thats another thing we have seen from this management. All other regimes in the past it was "we like our team" or "we are always looking to improve" or equally empty things. Phil says we stink and give the BB gods heartburn. I mean sounds weird but thats a breath of fresh air. We are terrible and have work to do.

Phil said he was trying to make the playoffs with the product out of training camp...He wasn't even close so he decided to clean house...Fisher has just been awful..Phil said he traded for Calderon because he fits what he is trying to do..Later he said he was trying to trade Calderon but there were no takers..What GM does that to a player by the way...I'm not under any illusions, I'm scared..The plan changes on a whim...But hey, I'm rooting for him and Fisher...

I don't have a problem with a go changing course when his plan A has failed- to me that's the smart thing to do, and I don't see why he gets blasted for that. Fish hasn't shown anything this season, but I'll give him a pass as it's his first season and he has an awful roster and injuries- hopefully he improves next season or we're in trouble.

I don't regard the shump and Jr trade as a mistake- JR had negative value so we used shump to get rid of him. JR had a plantar fascia tear and shump always seemed to get injured (see last year at the trade deadline) so it was a risk holding onto them any longer.

Tyson trade, I never liked Calderón, but I'll see how Early and the Greek kid turn out (and Larkin). It's funny- the posters who say how important picks are completely ignore the fact we got those players and pretend the trade was just tyson for Calderón. I was glad to get rid of Felton, and Calderón is only an extra 3mil I think a year, which is okay for a backup of who can shoot.

I'll judge Phil after this offseason- that's the true test, up until now he didn't have much to work with. If we end up with a top 3 pick and some nice off-season free agents then I'm pleased.

I don't buy the JR and Shump had zero value..That's Knick fan talk..No one has value on their teams...They suggested trading Melo for a pick when The Nuggets got two 1st for Moz...We could and should have gotten something in return...They have made Cleveland a contender...I'm hoping for the best...

If Jr had value then why didn't Phil trade him for that value? Do you really think someone offered a first for him, and he went- nah, I'd rather trade him for nothing! I agree with you in the sense that Jr could always contribute in the right situation, but unfortunately other gms don't see that until it happens. That's my biggest issue with the criticism on Phil's trades- people say we should and could have gotten more without actually knowing if he could have gotten more, because there were no leaks about alternative offers. So really you're left with: should we have traded them for what we did, or kept them.

I think JR and Shump was a quick dump after Fish started getting booed in January...Phil was just buying time because fans will then think we were tanking which is what happened...As a Knick fan, we always seem to come out on the losing ends of trades because we seem to do a panic trade...We all but announce we will get rid of these players and then wonder why we don't get value in return...Everyone knew that we would move Felton and Tyson at the end of the season...We got Calderon and a 2nd round pick back..

So you think that had we kept Tyson, we couldn't get anything from Cleveland for him??..Or that Cleveland can't get anything in return for JR or Shump now??

Cleveland I doubt would have gone for tyson because he's an expiring deal and would command too much money in the offseason- they are already paying max contracts to LeBron, London events and Irving and are facing a big payout for Thompson. That's why they wanted mosgov- effective and cheap for 2 seasons.

We usually have come out worse in trades because we used to trade young players for injured vets on the decline. The hold on and hope they gain value is a big risk because the players can get injured (shump at last year's deadline) or play worse. Jr has improved his value because players look better on winning teams and he's stopped partying and is out of the media's microscope. If we hadn't traded him, he'd be the same negative value player as we would have continued to lose, there would still be the media microscope, etc.

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think an apology for the product they paid handsomely to watch nightly is also in order...

well lets be fair.. thats another thing we have seen from this management. All other regimes in the past it was "we like our team" or "we are always looking to improve" or equally empty things. Phil says we stink and give the BB gods heartburn. I mean sounds weird but thats a breath of fresh air. We are terrible and have work to do.

Phil said he was trying to make the playoffs with the product out of training camp...He wasn't even close so he decided to clean house...Fisher has just been awful..Phil said he traded for Calderon because he fits what he is trying to do..Later he said he was trying to trade Calderon but there were no takers..What GM does that to a player by the way...I'm not under any illusions, I'm scared..The plan changes on a whim...But hey, I'm rooting for him and Fisher...

1st of all since so many teams make the playoffs it's not strange for a GM to come out and say we could make the playoffs. Especially in the East. There were health issues from the very start which hampered the process and on top of that you had JR and others not really buying in and a bad attitude in the locker room. Phil said from the start that he would pretty much know what he has by December and so he flushed that project and went with plan B. This has put us in a position to land a top pick for once. What's not to like about him doing that? This is what needed to be done.

If we end up drafting a stud this summer no one is going to be focussing on this season any longer. Except to say that it was worth it.

The reason I don't buy the JR not buying in story is that he was one of the better players in the triangle in my opinion..I often commented he made the best passes out of the sets...JR is everyone's scapegoat...

Exactly, the triangle's most important position is the 2g, a position that's now dominated by combo guards that are 6 4".

I can't wait to hear phils sorry ass speech when he realize's he has to max out any FA considering the knicks, or when his only options are summer league players and d-leaugers