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The best PF ever?
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Panos
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6/24/2005  2:04 PM
Posted by Marv:

i think it's a good question.

Here's my answer - the guy does exactly everything you need to win. THat's it. He gets it done when it's needed to get done. Produces the win when you need it regardless of what kind of game he's had up to that point.

IMO it is the absolute #1 best quality to judge a player by and it cannot be measured by statistics.

I'm in one of my oldtimers moods today so I'm reminded of what Red Aeurbach used to say - He used to meet with every player on his team after the season to talk salary. If anyone brought up statistics he'd throw them out of his office in one of his ususal tirades. His quote - "Statistics are for losers." Red was all about keeping the needs of the team in mind and delivering wins.

Duncan's one of those guys who just delivers you the championships.

I'll buy that at least as a viable answer, not like Oasis'.
You are sort of asking me to go on a lot of faith.
When I watch him play, I don't see him dominating the opponent,
or don't necessarilly see the evidence of being responsible for
ensuring the win. For example, without Ginobli sparking last night,
that game was lost (NOT saying that Ginobli was more valuable).
The real greats, Barkley, Jordan, could put
the whole team on their shoulders and carry them to victory.
I just don't see that in Tim. I'll admit he's a great player
to have on your team, I just don't see the reason for all the
HUGE accolades.

Also, I have huge respect for the team that is the Spurs.
They are great as a unit, their chemistry is to be envied,
(same with Detriot). However, just as with Tim Duncan,
I think Parker and Ginobli are overrated.

Also, I have not been a Detriot fan, but after 2 years of proof,
I have finally gotten it beaten into my head that Detriot is for
real. A great team, and some great and unique talents. This
championship really could have gone either way. For once, I
think, there was no clear winner, and the trophy should have been
shared. After all, they are both unselfish teams, right?
AUTOADVERT
Panos
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6/24/2005  2:07 PM
Posted by Marv:

Which of those teams did Horry carry? It's quite different when you are the playaer. And Duncan's done it now with 2 totally different squads.

Granted, but please also admit that the first squad was already
a contender before Duncan got there, and S.A. was lucky as sh!t
to have gotten a great pick in the draft. They already had
an all-star 7 footer in Robinson. He didn't do that alone.
And as for the current squad, I think the system and teamsmanship
of the Spurs carried them to victory, not TD himself.
Nalod
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6/24/2005  2:26 PM
Karl all defensve team one year.

Timmy about 4.

Karl no rings, Timmy got 3.

Timmy can score too right? Few MVPs also.

Timmy not glamourous enough?

Kevin was great, but having Larry bird is a big upgrade over Manu, or Sean Elliot. Parish vs. Nazr? I'd say Kevin had some better teamates than timmy.
Killa4luv
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6/24/2005  2:36 PM
Valid question about Tim, I was sort of saying this the other day.

He doesn't dominate, and he didn't play particulary well last night (27 & 11,10-27fg) and they won because they have a well configured team and a great coach. Tim is dependable in the post and can be virtually unstoppable. He doesn't do it every play back to back, and he didn't even have one of his better playoff performances this year, but he did enough with the squad they have, which is pretty damn good.

But the question you have to ask is, if you put other PF's on that squad do they win a championship?

Do they win with KG?
Do they win with Amare?

I'd have to say yes to both, which raises some interesting questions.



TheSage
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6/24/2005  2:41 PM
Duncan has been first team all start just about every year-same for first all defensive team. Three titles and a I believe 2 mvp's so far. Bird was great-good rebounder and dead shot but his defense wasn't in same class as TD. Pretty much same for Malone. And let us not forget DeBusshere (spelling???) but he didn't have the size of Duncan or Bird although was a tremendous physical presence with great shooting range.

Yes TD can play center but there has always been someone else to man the middle and let Tim move around
OasisBU
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6/24/2005  2:42 PM
Panos:

San Antonio was good, but didnt win until Time.

San Antonio has won 2 more times since then - because of Tim.

Numerous awards, including MVP of the league, MVP of the Finals etc.

3 rings and he is still under 30 years old, so he isnt done yet - Tim is just getting warmed up.

Just because he is not a dominating personality doesnt mean he cant be one of the best if not THE best that ever played the position.

Judging by the way his career is headed, he certainly seems to be the best that ever played. If you doubt it - give him a few more years.

As far as Horry - he is a journeyman, he has skills but he doesnt carry a team like some other posters mentioned.

By the way, 3 rings when you are the MVP says a lot - thats not a BS answer...but if you arent smart enough to know the rest that goes along with those *minor* accomplishments then maybe you should google Tim Duncan and learn a little on the subject.
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Rich
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6/24/2005  2:46 PM
DeBuscherre
Panos
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6/24/2005  2:57 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

Panos:

San Antonio was good, but didnt win until Time.

San Antonio has won 2 more times since then - because of Tim.

Numerous awards, including MVP of the league, MVP of the Finals etc.

3 rings and he is still under 30 years old, so he isnt done yet - Tim is just getting warmed up.

Just because he is not a dominating personality doesnt mean he cant be one of the best if not THE best that ever played the position.

Judging by the way his career is headed, he certainly seems to be the best that ever played. If you doubt it - give him a few more years.

As far as Horry - he is a journeyman, he has skills but he doesnt carry a team like some other posters mentioned.

By the way, 3 rings when you are the MVP says a lot - thats not a BS answer...but if you arent smart enough to know the rest that goes along with those *minor* accomplishments then maybe you should google Tim Duncan and learn a little on the subject.

Oasis, I am not trying to argue here. I am trying to learn some
people's point of view. I know very well what awards and
achievements TD has acquired over the years. I don't need rehashing.
My questions are WHY he wins these awards. I am asking those of
you who may have more fundental understanding of the game to explain
to me what it is about him that the makes everyone label him as
an MVP when I personally am not seeing it. What qualities does
he have that sets him above the other PFs we have been discussing
in this thread? I never asked what awards he has won.
Panos
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6/24/2005  2:58 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

By the way, 3 rings when you are the MVP says a lot - thats not a BS answer...but if you arent smart enough to know the rest that goes along with those *minor* accomplishments then maybe you should google Tim Duncan and learn a little on the subject.

Also, I never insulted you, so don't presume to know how "smart" I am.
NYKBocker
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6/24/2005  3:07 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Kevin was great, but having Larry bird is a big upgrade over Manu, or Sean Elliot. Parish vs. Nazr? I'd say Kevin had some better teamates than timmy.

Yeah, but Frankenstein also had to go against better players back in the day. When bigs were allowed to play big. I hated the Celtics. I loved it when The Big Fella swept the parquet floor, but McHale just earned my respect. This is just one mans opinion.
technomaster
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6/24/2005  3:09 PM
Tim Duncan, as has been said many times, is almost like the anti-superstar. Visually, he looks soft, slow, and non-athletic. Looking at his arms, you might even wonder if he works out.

Unlike most players, he doesn't waste a heck of a lot of energy. He sucks up rebounds w/o any flash--- he doesn't run from side to side trying to get himself open. He barely seems to get off the ground on his jumpers. He just knows where to be to receive the ball. It's all very efficient. As a result, he never seems to look tired or winded.

KG is almost like the anti-Duncan. Always looks like he's on the move, doing something. Always talking, always using up energy. Each board is accompanied by a scream... like he has to prove his athleticism on every possession.

If I had to start a team from scratch... it'd be through Tim Duncan. No flash, just sheer efficiency.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
OasisBU
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6/24/2005  3:38 PM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by OasisBU:

Panos:

San Antonio was good, but didnt win until Time.

San Antonio has won 2 more times since then - because of Tim.

Numerous awards, including MVP of the league, MVP of the Finals etc.

3 rings and he is still under 30 years old, so he isnt done yet - Tim is just getting warmed up.

Just because he is not a dominating personality doesnt mean he cant be one of the best if not THE best that ever played the position.

Judging by the way his career is headed, he certainly seems to be the best that ever played. If you doubt it - give him a few more years.

As far as Horry - he is a journeyman, he has skills but he doesnt carry a team like some other posters mentioned.

By the way, 3 rings when you are the MVP says a lot - thats not a BS answer...but if you arent smart enough to know the rest that goes along with those *minor* accomplishments then maybe you should google Tim Duncan and learn a little on the subject.

Oasis, I am not trying to argue here. I am trying to learn some
people's point of view. I know very well what awards and
achievements TD has acquired over the years. I don't need rehashing.
My questions are WHY he wins these awards. I am asking those of
you who may have more fundental understanding of the game to explain
to me what it is about him that the makes everyone label him as
an MVP when I personally am not seeing it. What qualities does
he have that sets him above the other PFs we have been discussing
in this thread? I never asked what awards he has won.

He wins awards for several reasons - I think the biggest is he is a clean cut likeable guy. Now personally, I dont think that is a great reason to win them - but he has the stats to back it up so I think a lot of what he gets is warranted.

He is one of the last remaining dominant big men. He is old school, not flashy - but efficient, and he banks his shots off the glass. While he isnt a flashy player he does have a distinct presence that makes him unique. He seems to be a natural born winner - and people like that quality. Tim doesnt make enemies, he just plays the game and does his thing - which he happens to do very well. He is also humble, which considering the amount of success he has had, is pretty impressive.

I guess you could argue Tim wont win you a championship by himself, but he is probably the most solid foundation that you could start with. Is he the best ever? Who knows - like you said - what makes someone the best ever? What is the true mark of greatness? I think it is a combination of everything that has been discussed in this thread. It is willingness to do what it takes to succeed, its the ability to carry a team when needed, to sacrifice yourself if you have to for the better of the team, its winning, its winning championships, etc. Its not 1 thing, its a combination but at the end of the day the W's are probably the biggest measure of it all.

"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
SkyWalker
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6/24/2005  3:38 PM
KENNETH SKY WALKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kenny SkyWalker
Panos
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6/24/2005  3:47 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

He wins awards for several reasons - I think the biggest is he is a clean cut likeable guy. Now personally, I dont think that is a great reason to win them - but he has the stats to back it up so I think a lot of what he gets is warranted.

He is one of the last remaining dominant big men. He is old school, not flashy - but efficient, and he banks his shots off the glass. While he isnt a flashy player he does have a distinct presence that makes him unique. He seems to be a natural born winner - and people like that quality. Tim doesnt make enemies, he just plays the game and does his thing - which he happens to do very well. He is also humble, which considering the amount of success he has had, is pretty impressive.

I guess you could argue Tim wont win you a championship by himself, but he is probably the most solid foundation that you could start with. Is he the best ever? Who knows - like you said - what makes someone the best ever? What is the true mark of greatness? I think it is a combination of everything that has been discussed in this thread. It is willingness to do what it takes to succeed, its the ability to carry a team when needed, to sacrifice yourself if you have to for the better of the team, its winning, its winning championships, etc. Its not 1 thing, its a combination but at the end of the day the W's are probably the biggest measure of it all.

I don't think he's one of the last dominate big men.
Lots others have been mentioned in this very thread.

Still don't see reasons in here why he's the best PF ever.
Anyone else? Specific qualities? (By the way, there may
not be any good answer to this, and that is ok. But if
somebody sees something I don't, please share).



[Edited by - panos on 06/24/2005 15:49:43]
OasisBU
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6/24/2005  3:56 PM
I think the art of the big man has slowly started to disappear over the past few years. At least draft wise there havent been too many.

Is KG truly great? Whats your argument for him being listed as an all time great up there with some of the best? He hasnt even been to the finals yet.
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OasisBU
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6/24/2005  4:00 PM
Career Highlights
# 2003 USA Basketball Men's Senior National Team
# All-NBA First Team 2003
# NBA Finals MVP 2003
# Two-time Most Valuable Player (2001-02 and 2002-03)
# Named the NBA Finals MVP in both 1999 and 2003 to become just the third player in history to earn Finals MVP honors in each of their first two trips to the Finals (joining Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan)
# Just the second player in NBA history to be named to both an All-NBA Team and an All-Defensive Team in each of his first six seasons (David Robinson was the first and he earned the honors in each of his first seven seasons)
# Has been named to the All-NBA First Team all six seasons, the first player since Larry Bird (fifth in NBA history: Baylor, Bird, Duncan, Pettit and Robertson) to be named All-NBA First Team in each of his first six seasons
# Has earned a spot on the All-Defensive First Team each of the last five seasons after being named to the All-Defensive Second Team as a rookie in '97-98
# Named the 1999 Finals MVP
# Won the 1998 Rookie of the Year
# Named co-MVP of the 2000 All-Star Game
# Been named an All-Star five straight seasons (no game was held in 1999)
# Ranks seventh among active players in playoff career scoring average with 23.9 ppg
# Played for the USA Team in the 1999 Americas Qualifying Tournament in San Juan, Puerto Rico, was selected to play for the U.S. Team in the 2000 Olympics but had to withdraw due to a knee injury
# Been named the NBA Player of the Week 15 times and the Player of the Month four times
# Leads all players in the NBA in double-doubles over the last six seasons
# Named to the All Tournament Team for the 2003 FIBA Americas Men’s Qualifying Tournament after leading the U.S. Team to the Gold Medal
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
Panos
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6/24/2005  4:05 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

I think the art of the big man has slowly started to disappear over the past few years. At least draft wise there havent been too many.

Is KG truly great? Whats your argument for him being listed as an all time great up there with some of the best? He hasnt even been to the finals yet.

KG has more points, rebounds, and EVEN assists per game than Duncan.
He may be a prick, and pose some chemistry challenges for his coaches
but he can play a number of positions extremely well. Handles the
ball very well. I've seen Tim fumble many passes even in this
last series.

Team-wise, character-wise, TD can't be beat.
But player ability, I think both KG, Barkley, and Malone topped TD.
Panos
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6/24/2005  4:08 PM
Holy crap! How many times do I have to say it?
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT AWARDS!
I'M TALKING ABOUT *WHY* HE WINS THEM.

I'll accept the following:
# Leads all players in the NBA in double-doubles over the last six seasons

That is a concrete positive to note.

Posted by OasisBU:

Career Highlights
# 2003 USA Basketball Men's Senior National Team
# All-NBA First Team 2003
# NBA Finals MVP 2003
# Two-time Most Valuable Player (2001-02 and 2002-03)
# Named the NBA Finals MVP in both 1999 and 2003 to become just the third player in history to earn Finals MVP honors in each of their first two trips to the Finals (joining Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan)
# Just the second player in NBA history to be named to both an All-NBA Team and an All-Defensive Team in each of his first six seasons (David Robinson was the first and he earned the honors in each of his first seven seasons)
# Has been named to the All-NBA First Team all six seasons, the first player since Larry Bird (fifth in NBA history: Baylor, Bird, Duncan, Pettit and Robertson) to be named All-NBA First Team in each of his first six seasons
# Has earned a spot on the All-Defensive First Team each of the last five seasons after being named to the All-Defensive Second Team as a rookie in '97-98
# Named the 1999 Finals MVP
# Won the 1998 Rookie of the Year
# Named co-MVP of the 2000 All-Star Game
# Been named an All-Star five straight seasons (no game was held in 1999)
# Ranks seventh among active players in playoff career scoring average with 23.9 ppg
# Played for the USA Team in the 1999 Americas Qualifying Tournament in San Juan, Puerto Rico, was selected to play for the U.S. Team in the 2000 Olympics but had to withdraw due to a knee injury
# Been named the NBA Player of the Week 15 times and the Player of the Month four times
# Leads all players in the NBA in double-doubles over the last six seasons
# Named to the All Tournament Team for the 2003 FIBA Americas Men’s Qualifying Tournament after leading the U.S. Team to the Gold Medal
tomverve
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6/24/2005  4:18 PM
I think people's perceptions of Duncan have been warped a bit by his performance in this Finals. Keep in mind that he's had to play against one of the best defensive teams EVER, against former DPOY Ben Wallace and Rasheed, whose arrival really put Detroit's D over the top. They are a damned good defensive team, so they're going to at least slow down anyone they come up against.

10-27 FGs isn't an impressive percentage, but it was Duncan who singlehandedly brought the Spurs back to life in the 3rd quarter when they fell behind by 8 and looked in serious trouble. Don't underestimate that! For all his talents, KG is not the kind of guy who can just throw a team on his back and dominate the post on offense for long stretches against the toughest defenses. Amare Stoudemire just might be that kind of player, but we need to see more from him. But there's no doubt about Duncan.

(This quality is also what separated Ewing from Mourning IMO during their primes-- both 20/10, could score in the post or with the jumper, Mourning the better shotblocker and defensive anchor, but Mourning could never be dominant on offense like Ewing could at times. Same thing between Duncan and KG.)
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technomaster
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6/24/2005  5:20 PM
The only category where TD falls behind KG is assists. TD has averaged a 3.1apg for his career (very solid for a big man). KG has averaged 5+ apg for the past 6 seasons (very Chris Webber-ish).

Everything else is pretty close--- one year TD is better in a category, next year KG is... TD has tended to be a better shot blocker... but these numbers vary from season to season.

Like I said, it's not always about sheer athleticism--- it's about what you do on the floor... and whether your team wins or not. Also take into account that TD has been in nearly 3x as many playoff games as KG.

TD's consistency comes into play here--- he shoots the same FG% in the regular season as the playoffs (both around 51%). KG's drops from 49% to 45%...

Yeah, KG can do more for you--- he's a bit of a point-power forward-- he can hurt you all over the floor. He's a revolutionary player that transcends position.

TD is the prototypical PF, he's the perfect PF.
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