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Jackie Bulter vs. Mike Sweetney
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gunsnewing
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6/15/2005  10:29 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

Sweetney is a good player. the guy is a bull[although he needs to keep his weight in check] and highly skilled, and built to battle in the post. Now he will never guard the KGs of the world, but I see him as a guy along the lines of a sixth man FC type who plays 25 minutes off the bench like Dice does for Detroit. you really do need 4 guys who can play in the frontcourt, 3 who get 25 + minutes.

In 25 minutes Sweetney in shape should average 12-13 points 8 reb shooting 50%+

Now all we need is two frontcourt starters:>(

Agreed. I think he can easily do that IF he comes into camp in shape. He averaged 9 & 6 in only a ridiculous 19mins in his second year in the league and severely overweight.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 06/15/2005 10:38:33]
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bigpimpin
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6/15/2005  10:37 AM
I wasn't knocking Sweetney, if that is what some posters think I was doing by my post.

I may make a joke about his weight here an there but I'm happy the Knicks have Sweetney. And my reference to "hot dog neck" was IN RESPONSE to past posts where some posters had Sweetney penciled in as an All-Star for years to come. I stated how i didn't feel as if he would be better than Weatherspoon. Who, i agree was a beast once upon a time
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TMS
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6/15/2005  10:38 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by simrud:

Weatherspoon was pretty good in his prime you know.

If Sweetney can at least be as good as Spoon was in his best years it would be alredy nice.

That draft was just really bad, its not like we passed on somebody good to take Sweetney.

Who would you rather have from that year, Nick Collison?
I'd rather have Josh Howard, but I'm not going to criticize Layden for taking Sweetney over Howard. 27 other GMs also passed on Howard.

what kind of logic is that? that's like you buy a stock & it goes under, you say "i can't blame my stock broker for that bad tip because 27 other stock brokers bought the same stock"
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Bonn1997
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6/15/2005  11:20 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by simrud:

Weatherspoon was pretty good in his prime you know.

If Sweetney can at least be as good as Spoon was in his best years it would be alredy nice.

That draft was just really bad, its not like we passed on somebody good to take Sweetney.

Who would you rather have from that year, Nick Collison?
I'd rather have Josh Howard, but I'm not going to criticize Layden for taking Sweetney over Howard. 27 other GMs also passed on Howard.

what kind of logic is that? that's like you buy a stock & it goes under, you say "i can't blame my stock broker for that bad tip because 27 other stock brokers bought the same stock"
There isn't the same random luck in finances (or not to the same degree) as in the NBA draft. You can do all the work and have the best scouts, but there's still a huge amount of luck involved. I give someone the benefit of the doubt if they make a draft choice that makes sense. Sweetney at #8 did make sense; Josh Howard wouldn't have made sense at the time at #8 or anywhere in the mid 1st round. That's why all the GMs passed on him.
Were you just playing devil's advocate or do you disagree with me and blame Layden for not drafting Josh Howard at #8?
diderotn
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6/15/2005  11:24 AM
Look, none of us should be talking about this subject until both of them get ample amound of playing time..
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TMS
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6/15/2005  11:26 AM
yes, i blame Layden for not doing due diligence in scouting that kid & passing him up...same way as i blame him for not doing due diligence on drafting Amare Stoudamire at #7 instead of trading the pick along w/Camby for a gimpy Antonio McDyess...GM's get paid millions of dollars to scout & draft the best players...he failed miserably both years of the draft...i don't care that other GM's failed similarly either.
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Silverfuel
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6/15/2005  11:58 AM
Posted by diderotn:

Look, none of us should be talking about this subject until both of them get ample amound of playing time..
Are you sure about that? I can understand Jackie not playing. He was picked up late in the season and he is also young. Whats with Sweetney? The second season after he got drafted, he played only 20 mins a game. He hasnt lost much weight which is the deciding factor. Maybe he isnt getting playing time cause he doesnt practice hard.

Sweetney was impressive in the series against the Nets last year but I didnt see much from him this year. Marv loves his defense on Eddy Curry but he would be better/quicker if he lost weight. I think the next season is his last chance. We have Malik Rose and Mo Taylor now too. He has to compete with JYD, KT and the other two guys. I dont think he can, I think his days as a Knick are done.

I am not saying he is not as good as the 4 PF's we already have. But if he cannot lose the weight, I dont think he deserves much playing time or to be a Knick PF.
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Killa4luv
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6/15/2005  1:04 PM
Posted by TMS:

yes, i blame Layden for not doing due diligence in scouting that kid & passing him up...same way as i blame him for not doing due diligence on drafting Amare Stoudamire at #7 instead of trading the pick along w/Camby for a gimpy Antonio McDyess...GM's get paid millions of dollars to scout & draft the best players...he failed miserably both years of the draft...i don't care that other GM's failed similarly either.
I don't blame him for not picking Amare, there were HUGE questions marks about his mental stability and family life, which tend to indicate certain bad things about NBA performance.

I wanted NeNe at the time and I literally jumped into the air when we drafted him I was so happy. I blame Layden for trading Camby and NeNe for an athletic star, fresh-and I mean fresh off of a season ending knee injury and surgery. It was a huge gamble, the odds were against us, and it didn't make sense then, or now. Bad, Bad move.

[Edited by - killa4luv on 06/15/2005 13:06:14]
Allanfan20
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6/15/2005  1:08 PM
I think TMS is a little harsh on Sweetney, although it's understandable with his frustration with his weight issues and missing Josh Howard. However, he had a killer work ethic, lost weight and improved every year. I see him as a player still adjusting, and at the end of the day, will be a pretty darn good player in the NBA. Not an all star, but like Briggs said, maybe a candidate for 6th man of the year or something? I don't consider it to be a failure at all that Layden chose Sweetney with that 9th pick.

As for Jackie Butler. We saw him play for a total of one minute. We don't know jack squad about him, besides him getting bad advise from his agent. How about lets see him play a real NBA game before we compare him to Kareem Abdul Jabar.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
gunsnewing
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6/15/2005  1:15 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

I think TMS is a little harsh on Sweetney, although it's understandable with his frustration with his weight issues and missing Josh Howard. However, he had a killer work ethic, lost weight and improved every year. I see him as a player still adjusting, and at the end of the day, will be a pretty darn good player in the NBA. Not an all star, but like Briggs said, maybe a candidate for 6th man of the year or something? I don't consider it to be a failure at all that Layden chose Sweetney with that 9th pick.

As for Jackie Butler. We saw him play for a total of one minute. We don't know jack squad about him, besides him getting bad advise from his agent. How about lets see him play a real NBA game before we compare him to Kareem Abdul Jabar.

you mean to tell me we can't look at his high school stats, pre-draft reports, the fact that he dominated the CBA as a 19yr old teenager and played 6mins scored 10pts without a miss(and no it wasn't all layups, he showcased good footwork and post moves) Again, I get the feeling the people underestimating Butler didn't read the scouting reports when the Knioks acquired him and didn't catch any of his 6mins
Silverfuel
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6/15/2005  1:19 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

you mean to tell me we can't look at his high school stats, pre-draft reports, the fact that he dominated the CBA as a 19yr old teenager
I agree with you that we know more than jack about him but be careful when you do use the high school stats.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
gunsnewing
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6/15/2005  1:29 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by gunsnewing:

you mean to tell me we can't look at his high school stats, pre-draft reports, the fact that he dominated the CBA as a 19yr old teenager
I agree with you that we know more than jack about him but be careful when you do use the high school stats.

agreed but for the most part if a guy puts up 30pts/20rebs in HS he goes on to have an effective college and nba stint but we'll see. Isiah said acquiring Butler was like acquiring a 1st round draft choice
Allanfan20
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6/15/2005  1:43 PM
I could care less about those high school and CBA stats. I am sure he can be a very good NBA player, but the Knicks never played him (Please don't tell me that 6 minutes is playing him) so I never got a chance to see with my own 2 eyes how he does, besides that one time he scored that layup. So as far as I know, he's no better than Travis Knight, but we'll never know until we see him play an NBA game and I'm not talking about Summer league.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
gunsnewing
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6/15/2005  1:47 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

I could care less about those high school and CBA stats. I am sure he can be a very good NBA player, but the Knicks never played him (Please don't tell me that 6 minutes is playing him) so I never got a chance to see with my own 2 eyes how he does, besides that one time he scored that layup. So as far as I know, he's no better than Travis Knight, but we'll never know until we see him play an NBA game and I'm not talking about Summer league.

Herb never played Ariza and Sweetney either. He played Kurt for 45mins, Rose for 36mins and Taylor
Pharzeone
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6/15/2005  1:51 PM
Posted by TMS:

yes, i blame Layden for not doing due diligence in scouting that kid & passing him up...same way as i blame him for not doing due diligence on drafting Amare Stoudamire at #7 instead of trading the pick along w/Camby for a gimpy Antonio McDyess...GM's get paid millions of dollars to scout & draft the best players...he failed miserably both years of the draft...i don't care that other GM's failed similarly either.
Sweetney is not a failure. He just needs to get into shape. Camby was getting trade no matter what, that was the owner's call. You can't combat that. The problem that I have with the McDyess issue was that Layden went based on faulty doctor reports from Norman, McDyess guys and the Nuggets. He relied too much on his father Frank input too. He did that for the 2003 draft too. It was Frank's call on Sweetney and Lampe, too.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Allanfan20
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6/15/2005  1:52 PM
Lets keep the "Is it Herbs or Isiahs fault arguement" out of this. Point is, we saw Ariza for a little bit this season. We almost never saw Butler. We don't know how he can handle the pro competition. There have been so many times when a guy kicks ars in college or HS or CBA but can't handle pro. We just can't say the answer to this with Butler. I'm not saying he'll be a crappy player either. But I don't expect anything of him, b/c I haven't seen him play or even heard of him before the draft. All I'm saying is hold off the Elton Brand/ Bill Russel comparisons until we've seen him play at least 20 minutes in a few games.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Pharzeone
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6/15/2005  1:57 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

I could care less about those high school and CBA stats. I am sure he can be a very good NBA player, but the Knicks never played him (Please don't tell me that 6 minutes is playing him) so I never got a chance to see with my own 2 eyes how he does, besides that one time he scored that layup. So as far as I know, he's no better than Travis Knight, but we'll never know until we see him play an NBA game and I'm not talking about Summer league.
Isiah has visions of this guy long term, not just for last year. He didn't get a training camp with the team, and didn't have a chance to learn any of the plays. Aguire and Malone are very high on him. That's good enough for me. It was Herb's call, maybe he didn't want to play the guy because he didn't want the kid to blow any chances he has to get that interim label taken off his title. BTW, Knight was good for the Lakers his rookie year, that's what got him that contract.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
gunsnewing
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6/15/2005  2:07 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Lets keep the "Is it Herbs or Isiahs fault arguement" out of this. Point is, we saw Ariza for a little bit this season. We almost never saw Butler. We don't know how he can handle the pro competition. There have been so many times when a guy kicks ars in college or HS or CBA but can't handle pro. We just can't say the answer to this with Butler. I'm not saying he'll be a crappy player either. But I don't expect anything of him, b/c I haven't seen him play or even heard of him before the draft. All I'm saying is hold off the Elton Brand/ Bill Russel comparisons until we've seen him play at least 20 minutes in a few games.

I agree. we also can't lump him in with all the other 12men in the league because if you look at facts Herb stopped playing Ariza when he bacame the coach. I can't even begin to count the dnps, 3,5, 9min Ariza appearences under Herb as the record was just as bad as under Lenny. Just look up Ariza's minutes played after Herb took over. It's a ridiculous drop. I know because I was here with you guys complsining in the game thread everyday
TMS
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6/15/2005  2:12 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by TMS:

yes, i blame Layden for not doing due diligence in scouting that kid & passing him up...same way as i blame him for not doing due diligence on drafting Amare Stoudamire at #7 instead of trading the pick along w/Camby for a gimpy Antonio McDyess...GM's get paid millions of dollars to scout & draft the best players...he failed miserably both years of the draft...i don't care that other GM's failed similarly either.
Sweetney is not a failure. He just needs to get into shape. Camby was getting trade no matter what, that was the owner's call. You can't combat that. The problem that I have with the McDyess issue was that Layden went based on faulty doctor reports from Norman, McDyess guys and the Nuggets. He relied too much on his father Frank input too. He did that for the 2003 draft too. It was Frank's call on Sweetney and Lampe, too.

Sweetney's not a success, that's for sure...for a #9 pick i expect a whole heckuva lot more than what Sweetney's given this team so far...it's been 3 years now...how much longer are we supposed to wait for him to blossom into the next Elton Brand? it's not like he was some raw kid out of HS that needed time to mature...he played at Georgetown & was touted to be a player who could come in & contribute right away...he's shown some limited flashes, but all in all, he's shown himself to be a poor help defender, lacking passion, not a great outside shot & very foul prone...sorry, but yes, i am bitter at Layden for taking him when he could have played his cards right & traded down to get someone like Josh Howard...is that fair of me? maybe not, but i don't get paid millions of dollars to make decisions like that either.
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gunsnewing
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6/15/2005  2:17 PM
Question..Does anybody know if Butler was being recruited by college coaches the way Bynum has? I can see the same thing happening to Bynum that happened to Butler. He goes undrafted, signs with a team, is cut then goes to the CBA. My question is how was Butler sought after in comparison to Bynum?
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