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crzymdups
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6/14/2005  9:50 AM
Posted by fishmike:

who's better? No sarcasm either... I'm looking at the board and I dont see anyone that really impresses me. I like some of the lower guys like Blatche and Warrick but I think 8 is too high. Granger is gone IMO and Wright scares me a bit. He had a great year and he's all sorts of fast but he also shot below 40% before last year.

Maybe trading down is best.. I feel we are kind of in no mans land.

I think we have to go BPA AND also look at team needs. it helps no one to have SIX 6'8" PFs. We can't win with that.

To me Granger, Graham and Frye (yes, Frye, based on the way he plays, not his height) represent the true BPA who have a shot to be available for us. I don't think Granger will slip to 8, but hey, maybe. I don't know enough about Wright, but he seems to be a decent option - though I like Granger and Graham because they are more like SFs than SGs. Those guys could play alongside Ariza and//or Craw.


Also, can we PLEASE stop assassinating Frye's height? It's pretty lame. Frye is 6'9.5" in socks. Diogu is 6'6.5". So if Frye borrowed Diogu's shoes that get Ike up to 6'8", Frye would apparently be a "legit" 6'11". The NBA rounds up heights, guys. Frye is just as 6'11" as any other guy. Duncan is 6'10" in socks, 6'11.25" in shoes and the Spurs have always rounded it up to 7'0" for marketing reasons - this was the first season they didn't. But a half an inch doesn't make too much of a difference, but when we're talking about Ike Diogu and Channing Frye, that's three inches. Diogu plays a VERY similar game to Sweetney, it's repetition. Frye plays a COMPLIMENTARY game to Sweetney, that's called building a team.

Give me Frye or Granger (legit 6'9"), please.
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crzymdups
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6/14/2005  9:54 AM
the one way I'd take Diogu is if the Knicks traded both Kurt and Sweetney. Find me a way to do that, and I'll take him. I do think he'd be better than Sweetney and Kurt, but I don't necessarily see him being better than Granger or Frye.
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fishmike
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6/14/2005  9:57 AM
I wasnt killing Frye's height. My point was regardless of how tall they are when they raise their arms they are pretty much equal.

I think Frye would be a good fit next to Sweetney also (probably a better fit next to Diogu). I'm by no means convinced Frye is the better player or will be the better pro. Thats all. I would rather have Warrick over Graham, who I also think is a reach at 8.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Marv
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6/14/2005  9:57 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

the one way I'd take Diogu is if the Knicks traded both Kurt and Sweetney. Find me a way to do that, and I'll take him. I do think he'd be better than Sweetney and Kurt, but I don't necessarily see him being better than Granger or Frye.

And the only way I'd do it is if you trade Kurt and Sweetney for a center better than Frye.
crzymdups
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6/14/2005  10:02 AM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by crzymdups:

the one way I'd take Diogu is if the Knicks traded both Kurt and Sweetney. Find me a way to do that, and I'll take him. I do think he'd be better than Sweetney and Kurt, but I don't necessarily see him being better than Granger or Frye.

And the only way I'd do it is if you trade Kurt and Sweetney for a center better than Frye.

That's incredibly difficult. Who are the options? I would say Zydrunas is one of the only centers we could trade for, and I don't like him for the same reasons Fish doesnt - he doesn't fit the up tempo style we're trying to build. I think it's a pretty good idea, I'm just seriously not thinking of any centers we could go after. Ratliff?

My problem with Diogu is every scouting report I see on him goes out of it's way to mention he's not explosive, just kind of bullish. That makes me think Sweetney. I mean, Simien is pretty explosive and measures out at 6'9" with long reach. Why isn't he ahead of Diogu? That's why I like Graham better. He's a bull, but athletic and explosive enough to play the 3, while also being highly skilled.
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crzymdups
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6/14/2005  10:04 AM
here's an interesting article on how the length stuff is all playing out in the draft...funny, it mentions the Duncan thing to lead off with...

http://draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1004


edit: really interesting, Granger and Warrick have the same wingspan, but Warrick has 5 INCHES taller on the standing reach. wow. Yeah, I'd love to get Warrick. I wish there was a way we could trade 8 for like a 13th and 16th pick or something. I think part of the problem with being at 8 is you feel like you have to hit a home run, or a double, instead of just taking who you really like. though, it seems Zeke just really likes Frye, which makes me more comfortable than if he was reaching for Petro or something.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 06/14/2005 10:06:17]
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purple012870
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6/14/2005  10:04 AM
I love Diogu's game too, but I think its clear that if we were to draft a PF, especially one that was in the range of 6'8" we'd have to unload KT & Sweets for value.

For example:

KT to the Grizz for Jayson Williams & # 19

Sweetney & Jayson Williams to LA Lakers for Caron Butler & Tierre Brown

Draft Danny Granger - 8, Ike Diogu - 19 & Daniel Ewing - 30.
diderotn
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6/14/2005  10:04 AM
All that I am trying to point out is that the kid (Frye) has plenty of rooms to grow...

Posted by Marv:
Posted by diderotn:

He was soft in College...Ewing just Karl Malone worked in his game and is now one of the best big men to ever play the game...

Dido, dude, you have to understand you're just plain wrong on this count.

Partick was a WARRIOR in college. It was because of him that the team was referred to as Hoya Destoya.

he and michael Graham scared the SHYTE out of opposing teams.

Patick went into the final game aginst UNC and decided to do a little early intimidating so he goaltended their first 3 shots on purpose just to send them a message.

When he entered the nBA he developed a jump shot. If anything people ended up suprised that wasn't AS hard in the league as he had been in college basketball.

Here's my advice - at this point accept that you're wrong on this point. (said with love and goodwill and a bunch of them little smiling f'ers. you know, this shyte - )
The true Knickabocker..........
Marv
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6/14/2005  10:05 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by crzymdups:

the one way I'd take Diogu is if the Knicks traded both Kurt and Sweetney. Find me a way to do that, and I'll take him. I do think he'd be better than Sweetney and Kurt, but I don't necessarily see him being better than Granger or Frye.

And the only way I'd do it is if you trade Kurt and Sweetney for a center better than Frye.

That's incredibly difficult. Who are the options? I would say Zydrunas is one of the only centers we could trade for, and I don't like him for the same reasons Fish doesnt - he doesn't fit the up tempo style we're trying to build. I think it's a pretty good idea, I'm just seriously not thinking of any centers we could go after. Ratliff?

My problem with Diogu is every scouting report I see on him goes out of it's way to mention he's not explosive, just kind of bullish. That makes me think Sweetney. I mean, Simien is pretty explosive and measures out at 6'9" with long reach. Why isn't he ahead of Diogu? That's why I like Graham better. He's a bull, but athletic and explosive enough to play the 3, while also being highly skilled.

Then I wouldn't do it. My point is that i think we need the best available center at 8, not best available player. We don't develop the best center we can find at 8 and I predict we're gonna suck for a lot more years and continue to fantasize about landing all these centers for the MLE or trading for way-overpriced mediocre ones.
Marv
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6/14/2005  10:06 AM
Posted by diderotn:

All that I am trying to point out is that the kid (Frye) has plenty of rooms to grow...

Well I'm with you on that point . . .
crzymdups
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6/14/2005  10:15 AM
I'm with you guys on Frye. But I honestly think he's in the handful of BPA at 8 as well, center or no. He's a shotblocker, he fits our needs. I just don't buy that Diogu's shotblocking will translate. Sweetney's hasn't and he blocked nearly 4 a game in school. I think Frye's will. It's a result of his length. That article mentions he's got basically the same length and size as Bogut. That's huge. That's what this team needs.

Also, from that article, Hodge is INCREDIBLY long, I still say he HAS to be the guy at 30, unless Bynum is there for some reason...

Hodge, Julius
6' 6" (height without shoes)
7' 0½" (wingspan)
8' 11½" (standing reach)

Julius is in the second round right now, but couple his standing reach and wingspan, which many PFs in this draft cannot boast, the fact that he has legitimate point skills, a great attitude (on display during his recent workouts), and he too may end up working himself back into the first round.
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Pharzeone
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6/14/2005  12:19 PM
Posted by diderotn:

He was soft in College...Ewing just Karl Malone worked in his game and is now one of the best big men to ever play the game...

I was originally going to correct this post but I see it was well taken care of, so....

[Edited by - pharzeone on 06/14/2005 12:21:56]
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Solace
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6/14/2005  6:24 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Solace:

If we didn't have so many undersized power forwards already, I'd be all for a bull like Diogu.

But, we do. So, I don't know. I guess you could do as Bonn says and trade some of the undersized power forward for Moochie Norris-type players, but how many Moochie Norris's do we want on the team? Furthermore, Moochie Norris-like players wouldn't address a need. Nor does Diogu. We need tough players, but we're so undersized that we can't afford to go undersized with any of our picks this year.

So, although I'd love to get Diogu, I'll have to pass because he wouldn't help *this* team and he wouldn't have good trade value for the same reason that he's not a good draft choice for us.
so what about Channing Frye? He's got exactly 1 inch on his standing reach. This is a guy thats got a real soft label, yet it seems like he's a "safe" pick because he's 6'10 in shoes. Yet a guy like Diogu is just another undersized PF (he actually played center)

If we take Frye with the 8, I'll barf.

Not looking for soft players either. Frye wouldn't address a need. The problem is neither does Diogu. My issue is this: we have guys like Sweetney, Mo Taylor, Malik Rose, Jerome Williams, Kurt Thomas, etc.... to justify drafting Diogu, we have to trade at least two of them, in my mind. Drafting another undersized PF means that we're now waiting for the next trade to balance the roster. But... nobody is jumping at taking the undersized players off our team.

Thus, we have a dilemma. I like Diogu and wouldn't be upset if we got him, but not with the #8. If can trade for a mid first round pick, I'd have no problem taking Diogu. I just think mid-to-early lottery is too early to be going for undersized players with the squad we have. That's my view anyway.
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joec32033
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6/14/2005  8:32 PM
I think we have to take BPA (I hate that phrase because it implies we have no plan). Of the guys that should be available at 8, I like--in this order:

Graham, Webster, Simien, Petro.

I don't think that the centers in this draft have any more potential than guys we may be able to pick up with the MLE. I would prefer Hunter ,Dalembert, maybe Stro Swift. I think all can be had in sign and trades also. I would like to see Schenser drafted @54 as a project. my dream draft would be Graham at 8, Turiaf at 30 and Shenser at 54. Trading Sweets for a mid-round pick (and taking Petro) or packaging him and KT for Dalembert, or signing Hunter to the MLE, would cap it off for me.

Hunter/Petro/Schenser
Turiaf/Butler/Malik
Ariza/TT/JYD
Stephon/Graham/Crawford

IL-Houston-Taylor-Penny

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OldFan
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6/14/2005  8:59 PM
Posted by diderotn:

Ewing was soft when he was in college also....

BS
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