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Cleveland doesn't have a pick at all...
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Killa4luv
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6/13/2005  7:12 AM
Posted by jaydh:

thats just plain dumb. it would be huge to get Z for only the #30th, basically a 2nd round pick. what a joke you wouldnt trade a 2nd round pick for one of the best centers in the league.
AUTOADVERT
fishmike
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6/13/2005  7:18 AM
ok... so lets give $60mm to a 30+ year old player with history of multiple operations. That always works out for us pretty well.

If our goal is to make the playoffs and win 40-45 games then this is a great move. Heck.. .just give them the #8.

Well he is an all star. Can somone tell me who he beat out to be an all star? Tony Battie? Kurt Thomas? Dan Gadzurich?

Big Z has nice numbers. Aside from looking up his stats who has watched him play? I'm wondering how you feel about his lateral movement or his ability to get up and down the court.

Man... talk about repeating yesterdays mistakes. This guy would be all of them.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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6/13/2005  7:49 AM
heck.. I would rather have Channing Frye than Big Z.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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6/13/2005  7:51 AM
Posted by fishmike:

ok... so lets give $60mm to a 30+ year old player with history of multiple operations. That always works out for us pretty well.

If our goal is to make the playoffs and win 40-45 games then this is a great move. Heck.. .just give them the #8.

Well he is an all star. Can somone tell me who he beat out to be an all star? Tony Battie? Kurt Thomas? Dan Gadzurich?

Big Z has nice numbers. Aside from looking up his stats who has watched him play? I'm wondering how you feel about his lateral movement or his ability to get up and down the court.

Man... talk about repeating yesterdays mistakes. This guy would be all of them.
Giving up pick #8 would be repeating yesterday's mistakes. Giving up pick #30 would be an easy choice. He's probably missed the fewest games over the last 3 years of any player considered "injury prone"; his lateral movement is slow but still good enough to get a ton of weak side blocks.

There can be a ton of real good players left at pick 30. Heck, like Bonn says all the time, most people expect Bynum to be there
Yeah, I've said that most people expect him to be available at 30 a grand total of zero times. Maybe you have me confused with someone else.
fishmike
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6/13/2005  8:07 AM
another 30 year old retread from a losing team. I'll pass
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
jaydh
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6/13/2005  8:19 AM
Posted by fishmike:

heck.. I would rather have Channing Frye than Big Z.

lol.. i'm sure you would also hate it if the knicks were somehow able to get shaq. i could hear it now, hes over 30 and makes so much money, i'd rather have a center from the draft who will maybe make it as a backup. players dont die at 30!! BigZ worth a first round pick, maybe middle to late only if his contract wasnt so bad. BigZ worth the 30th and filler, um, its a no brainer.
Killa4luv
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6/13/2005  8:23 AM
Ok so fabricate a ridiculous contract and use that ficiticous number to make your point. Great way to win an argument, if no one is paying attention.

I have watched him play, his lateral movement is below average and he is slow, none of this is news to anyone. I just don't know when speed became a requirement for the center position. Especially for someone who is so skilled offensively and who is among league leaders in blocks. None of yor arguments negate how important his skills would be to our squad.

fishmike
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6/13/2005  8:31 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:

Ok so fabricate a ridiculous contract and use that ficiticous number to make your point. Great way to win an argument, if no one is paying attention.

I have watched him play, his lateral movement is below average and he is slow, none of this is news to anyone. I just don't know when speed became a requirement for the center position. Especially for someone who is so skilled offensively and who is among league leaders in blocks. None of yor arguments negate how important his skills would be to our squad.
Its not a no brainer. We arent talking about Shaq. We are talking about a slow 30 year old that has had multiple surgury.

I'm not fabricating a ridiculous contract. I'm going on what Dampier got last year and what what Isiah tried to give Dampier before he signed with Dallas. Why is that ridiculous. Whats market value for Big Z? Well lets look at what others are making and recently signed for. Sorry, he's not coming for the MLE, just like Dampier wasnt. Dampier signed 7 years and $70mm give or take. Thats not fabricated. Its fact.

Lots of guys would make the Knicks better. Heck, we won what... 32 games? Hard not to improve on that. Cliff Robinson would make us better too. So would Toni Kukoc and Elden Cambell.

Personally I would rather just draft and work on building something, rather than patching together a team of retreads, but thats just me.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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6/13/2005  8:32 AM
Posted by fishmike:

ok... so lets give $60mm to a 30+ year old player with history of multiple operations. That always works out for us pretty well.

If our goal is to make the playoffs and win 40-45 games then this is a great move. Heck.. .just give them the #8.

Well he is an all star. Can somone tell me who he beat out to be an all star? Tony Battie? Kurt Thomas? Dan Gadzurich?

Big Z has nice numbers. Aside from looking up his stats who has watched him play? I'm wondering how you feel about his lateral movement or his ability to get up and down the court.

Man... talk about repeating yesterdays mistakes. This guy would be all of them.

no! repeating yesterdays mistakes would be trading Ewing for essentially Shandon, Eisely & Knight, signing Spoon to the MLE and giving Houston $100mil.

If you remember correctly the last time we were good slow "over the hill" "time to move on" 36yr old Patrick Ewing was our Center. like Killa said Z is still in his prime that 28-33 range. And has played 81, 81 & 78 games the last 3-4yrs! He may not be a great one on one defender but he's a hell of an intimadator and judging from the comments in this thread it is the haters who seem like they've never seen the guy play before! Put him next to a rugged PF with Marbury, Crawford and Ariza in the wings and we'll be a very good team. Hopefully with Bynum on the bench playing a key backup role for 2-3yrs before taking the torch from Z.

I would give Z up to the 6yrs he's looking for since he will only be 33 when his contract expires. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you people make it sound like he's 39, 40. If you remember correctly Ewing was at the top of his game at 33. What Center other than Shaq, Yao and a few more will give you 17 & 8 & over 2blks?
gunsnewing
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6/13/2005  8:36 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Killa4luv:

Ok so fabricate a ridiculous contract and use that ficiticous number to make your point. Great way to win an argument, if no one is paying attention.

I have watched him play, his lateral movement is below average and he is slow, none of this is news to anyone. I just don't know when speed became a requirement for the center position. Especially for someone who is so skilled offensively and who is among league leaders in blocks. None of yor arguments negate how important his skills would be to our squad.
Its not a no brainer. We arent talking about Shaq. We are talking about a slow 30 year old that has had multiple surgury.

I'm not fabricating a ridiculous contract. I'm going on what Dampier got last year and what what Isiah tried to give Dampier before he signed with Dallas. Why is that ridiculous. Whats market value for Big Z? Well lets look at what others are making and recently signed for. Sorry, he's not coming for the MLE, just like Dampier wasnt. Dampier signed 7 years and $70mm give or take. Thats not fabricated. Its fact.

Lots of guys would make the Knicks better. Heck, we won what... 32 games? Hard not to improve on that. Cliff Robinson would make us better too. So would Toni Kukoc and Elden Cambell.

Personally I would rather just draft and work on building something, rather than patching together a team of retreads, but thats just me.

which frontcourt player do you suggest we go after who is better than Z? Kwame Brown please? stromile swift who's always injured and a tweener? Dan Gadzuric who is nothing more than a 20mins per game role player, steven hunter, your favorite Tyson Chandler?

maybe we get trade for Elton Brand, Amare, Duncan or KG and I can forget about getting Z!
fishmike
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6/13/2005  8:40 AM
Guns.. a couple things. The guy cant run. Also, your right about the Ewing thing except for one thing. Ewing was here for 10 years prior and already under contract. If he were a lousy (32 win team) and the solution was to trade for a 33 year old Patrick Ewing what would be the point. A 2-3 year window is nice if we are talking about Shaq. Big Z isnt a franchise player.

There is no doubt he would help. Maybe TT + pick 30 gets us Big Z signed for 5 years and $60mm.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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6/13/2005  8:49 AM
which frontcourt player do you suggest we go after who is better than Z?
Good question, and again, this is what has gotten in trouble. Sometimes the trade you dont make is the best one. Just because there are no better options means we have to take a bad one? Guys like Steven Hunter or Gadzurich are guys that have some upside, but they are also cheaper and easier to move. Think about how hot Isiah was for Dampier because he was THE BEST frontcourt player available. Now think about how hosed we would be if we gave him the deal Dallas did.

Just because he's the best option doesnt mean he's a good option.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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6/13/2005  8:53 AM
but Shaq is showing signs of declining. Problably due to the fact that he is 3-4yrs older. at 29 Z still has a good 3-4yrs left in him at 17/8/2. From the center position where most guys are lucky to average 10 & 8.

exactly man we can problably give him 4-5yrs but if 6 is what it takes then its not the end of the world since we have Marbury and Crawford already locked up for big money for the next 4-6yrs anyway.

i've said this before. If Z was 36-37 and clearly on the decline and nothing more than a serviceable vet I would not want anything to do with him. That would be the worst thing that can happen to this rebuilding team unless we got him for cheap like we got Mutombo, but Z is not 37 he's 29! So what if he's slow as long as he can block shots and rebound and throw outlet passes, which is what you need to be able to do in order to effectively run the ball.

The stat that most impresses me is the offensive rebounds per game. I know Lebron penetrates but think of the possibilities with Marbury penetrating! he'll get a ton of offensive rebounds!
gunsnewing
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6/13/2005  9:04 AM
Posted by fishmike:

which frontcourt player do you suggest we go after who is better than Z?
Good question, and again, this is what has gotten in trouble. Sometimes the trade you dont make is the best one. Just because there are no better options means we have to take a bad one? Guys like Steven Hunter or Gadzurich are guys that have some upside, but they are also cheaper and easier to move. Think about how hot Isiah was for Dampier because he was THE BEST frontcourt player available. Now think about how hosed we would be if we gave him the deal Dallas did.

Just because he's the best option doesnt mean he's a good option.

like I said Z is 29 not 37. and if thats the plan you're going to be moving centers left and right because non of those frontcourt guys fit the style Herb wants to play. I would not mind having one of them next to a guy like Elton Brand but we're not capable of acquiring Brand and there's no Elton Brand available to us in this draft but there are a ton of great wing players.

Either way we go I'll be happy Bynum at 8 and have him developing for 2-3yrs and play a key backup role as he slowing takes over for Z. I mean lets be realistic Bynum having an Amare like 1st yr impact is pretty damn near impossible. Or we can take the BPA which would most likely be a wing player and then draft a project bigman later in the draft and let him develop behind Z. Who again would only be 33 even after a max 6yr deal. and do whatever you can to pick up another mid 1st round pick for Kurt Thomas and/or Sweetney & 30.

C-Illgaukus/Bynum or Diogu, Morris,Turiaf,Petro,Akindale,Martynas,Pops
PF-Kurt, Sweetney, Taylor
SF-TT/Ariza
SG-Wright/Crawford
PG-Marbury/Jay Williams or Crawford

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 06/13/2005 09:40:38]
fishmike
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6/13/2005  9:08 AM
forget about Shaq... we are talking apples and oranges here. Heck, even forget about the Dallas/Dampier comparison because in a way thats apples and oranges also. Does Big Z make us a contender? I dont think he does, and if I'm going to invest big money in a 30+ player with a history of injuries I want the player to fall under that category. Dallas took a risk with Dampier because he's had an up and down career, but they werent building around Dampier. He was supposed to be a final chip type player.

I dont see the Knicks having anything close to the pieces that warrant adding a player like that. Its checks and balances as someone used to say. If big Z blows up we are out a pick and have no backup plan. If Dampier blew up Dallas has other bigs as well as 2 prospects/projects that could benefit. All we would have is another excuse.

Why this year? Why not wait for this type of move? Would you trade TT + Ariza for Big Z? If you wouldnt why would trade the 30 pick?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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6/13/2005  9:11 AM
there is no comparison between Z and Dampier. Z has been a 17/8/2 bigman his entire 9yr career. Dampier put up good numbers once in his career and that just so happened to be his contract year! I guarantee you Dallas would not be complaining about having Z over Damps next to Dirk!
fishmike
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6/13/2005  9:27 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:

there is no comparison between Z and Dampier. Z has been a 17/8/2 bigman his entire 9yr career. Dampier put up good numbers once in his career and that just so happened to be his contract year! I guarantee you Dallas would not be complaining about having Z over Damps next to Dirk!
even better then to prove my point. So if Dampier gets 7 years and $70mm whats the market value for Big Z? Max money? 5 years and $65mm? People will say "Dolan's money" but they are the same that complain about Houston's contract.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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6/13/2005  9:36 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by gunsnewing:

there is no comparison between Z and Dampier. Z has been a 17/8/2 bigman his entire 9yr career. Dampier put up good numbers once in his career and that just so happened to be his contract year! I guarantee you Dallas would not be complaining about having Z over Damps next to Dirk!
even better then to prove my point. So if Dampier gets 7 years and $70mm whats the market value for Big Z? Max money? 5 years and $65mm? People will say "Dolan's money" but they are the same that complain about Houston's contract.

couple of key factors here..

first of all, Z wants to come to NY and is seeking a 6yr deal not 7+
second giving a young center in his prime like Z 70mil for 6yrs is not even comparable to giving a one-dimensional jumpshooting SG would would never average 20pts on a good team, in a league where tons of guards average 20pts $100mil dollars.

We might be able to get Z for 5yrs $60-65mil since he wants to be here with his wife but I would give him up to 6yrs $70mil easily if thats what it took since he's a CENTER in his prime not 37 and on the decline.
fishmike
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6/13/2005  9:57 AM
5 years $65mm. Thats worth it to you? Man... we just differ on our opinion of Big Z. If we had great wing players, had a real PF in place and say won 45 something games last year than OK... this might be the guy that gets us to the next level.

We arent there. Big Z might be the guy that gets us to .500

So why invest in him when thats what we are shooting for?

I think your right... we will get him and he does want to be here. Isiah will throw himself a parade because he got an all star center under market value and we will win 42 games next year.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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6/13/2005  10:20 AM
Posted by fishmike:

5 years $65mm. Thats worth it to you? Man... we just differ on our opinion of Big Z. If we had great wing players, had a real PF in place and say won 45 something games last year than OK... this might be the guy that gets us to the next level.

We arent there. Big Z might be the guy that gets us to .500

So why invest in him when thats what we are shooting for?

I think your right... we will get him and he does want to be here. Isiah will throw himself a parade because he got an all star center under market value and we will win 42 games next year.

GOod post. I am split as we have good players, just not a good team. Maybe his is a good instint hit. I fear we sign him for big long money and have him injured or barley able to go in 2-3 years. We complain about ALLans deal, but this guy doe have a fragile history!

Is this now about Isiah building or having some good results now to sell tixs?

I say continue losing and keep rebuilding with the younger and athletic players! Have a plan and stick to it! Use a 30 pick for a Euroteen prospect and let him mature!

I fear Isiah will try as he did with damp. I expect nothing less than patchwork. The only difference is Isiah Is building with some younth under the surface!

We'll know soon enough!

[Edited by - nalod on 06/13/2005 10:25:00]
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