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Who's crippling this francise?
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fishmike
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6/10/2005  7:27 AM
thanks tom... that just cost us about four thousands from Bonn explaining why everything he says is fact based on a variety of his opinions.

I guess if Isiah craps out on this draft we can always wait and see what he does with the uber valuable TT/Penny expiring contracts. Then the next trading deadline. Then the next draft... hey, it will only be his 3rd draft, this takes time, then Houston, Mo, JYD and Shandon's deals will be coming off the books and he can really do some work.

Ah yes... the cycle continues.

Like I said, I dont know who wants Isiah to succeed more than myself, but I'm not going to sit here and pretent everything is rosey, when what I really smell is Isiah farting in the wind.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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diderotn
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6/10/2005  8:38 AM
this franchise will be resurected as soon as next season barring that we make some good moves. First thing is that we need talents at the frontcourt, second, decide on who the coach will be.
The true Knickabocker..........
fishmike
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6/10/2005  9:01 AM
Posted by diderotn:

this franchise will be resurected as soon as next season barring that we make some good moves. First thing is that we need talents at the frontcourt, second, decide on who the coach will be.
I hope so. Dont bet against Herb. Nobody wants to coach this group the way it is, and they play hard for Herb.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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6/10/2005  9:09 AM
if Isiah demands that Herb play the rookies and young players a little more than he did, than I have no problem with Herb as coach.
firefly
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6/10/2005  9:28 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:

if Isiah demands that Herb play the rookies and young players a little more than he did, than I have no problem with Herb as coach.

Guns, if we're thinking in terms of what Isiah will or will not allow the coach to do, whats the use of having a coach at all? Isiah might as well be on the bench for all the difference it makes.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
fishmike
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6/10/2005  9:50 AM
it makes a big difference. The why GMs hire their own coaches. If a GM gives a coach a 4 year contract and says in year one and two that its important to get the young guys experience he will do that.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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6/10/2005  10:18 AM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by fishmike:

Riley said point blank that fans needed to be patient because they were in a tough situation and they were going to have to use the draft to upgrade their roster. The draft Caron Butler, Dwane Wade and Haslem.

Isiah's been saying the same things-- patience, tough situation, draft, etc. On balance, I think he's been consistent with his stated plan to get younger and more athletic players. The only trade that doesn't seem to fit in is the Taylor trade, and his contract is not particularly poisonous since it coincides with Houston's.

The thing I find really curious is that all these criticisms are taking place with the draft just weeks away. It will only be Isiah's second draft with us, and he hit a homer in his first with very limited resources. Why don't we just wait a little longer and let Isiah's actions speak for him?

As an aside, maybe it's not my place to butt in, and I don't spend enough time here to get a really indepth sense of poster history, but... Nalod, you're coming off looking really petty and over-the-top the way you respond to Bonn. From what I can see, he's making reasonable arguments (not arguments you have to agree with, but at least reasonable), and what comes back is like something from middle school. Grow up.

PHuck that tom, look at the post before yours, its says nothing other than what he thinks of other ideas. Like simon on american idol, its annoying!

If you read most of comments, they are after a snit, and I encourage him to contribute as he often has good points! As I said earlier this week "you are better than that"!

From those anti snits are born the "gay robot" remarks and CP30, to which he even had some fun with.

Listen to some bright middle school kids go off on each other, if they are good, its hysterical!

Its a NEW York thing to point and counter point. Most of us read posts that get under our skin,and 99% of the time we let it go. Many times I don't participate on certain topics, or types of topics cuz I think they are silly. But I don't (nor does anyone else) comment against it uless I offer some type of legit opinion. Not just refute for the hell of it.

Tom, it has happened we go to far, need the last word in, and lowered our selves. But to not risk is to not really think, and once in a while it turns funny! I am on the record as saying Bonn3po is a bright fella but can be bitchy at times. He knows I love him!
Nalod
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6/10/2005  10:22 AM
I think Sweets might have some nice value and a good future. Being a soon restricted free agent he may be sought after and if so Mo T becomes a servicable PF that may allow us to eventually draft a blue chip PF and develope him. Having a sought after player like Sweets is an usually occurance for this franchise!

Just a thought regarding the possiblitly of how the MO. T thing may make sense, cuz it does not. LIke a chess game, you gotta look at a few moves downt he road, not the immeadiate impact.
Bonn1997
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6/10/2005  11:11 AM
He knows I love him!
I love you too Nalod
Pharzeone
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6/10/2005  11:28 AM
Posted by fishmike:

it makes a big difference. The why GMs hire their own coaches. If a GM gives a coach a 4 year contract and says in year one and two that its important to get the young guys experience he will do that.
To have your philosophy is one thing but to tell you on a nite to nite basis of who should be playing when and how many minutes they should get. Dido is right, what is the point of Herb coaching the team. To be a stooge. I don't think Isiah even wants a guy like that. When I first heard about Herb getting the job, I was like great even though he was never considered by many experts as a "hot" assistant like a Mike Brown, which didn't bother me because that is crap. Jim Cleamons was a hot assistant because the Bulls were winning. He failed horribly in Dallas with young talented players. Eddie Jordan was hot, cold, warm, and then hot again. No coach should be told what to do, that is unacceptable. He needs to have his own philosophy, it has to be more than about him just doing anything the boss wants to get paid. LOL, it is a profession, not a job. I applaud the fact that Herb went to Tex Winters to try and find his own philosophy of coaching but I am troubled that one of my team's "top" assistants doesn't already have his own style with 6 years of experience on the sidelines.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
fishmike
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6/10/2005  11:35 AM
there is a difference between being a stooge and having the same philosophy as your GM.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
rvhoss
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6/10/2005  11:35 AM
Posted by fishmike:

there is a difference between being a stooge and having the same philosophy as your GM.

Amen
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Pharzeone
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6/10/2005  2:32 PM
Posted by fishmike:

there is a difference between being a stooge and having the same philosophy as your GM.
I don't disagree. That is the problem, Herb doesn't have a philosophy.

http://p149.news.scd.yahoo.com/s/nypost/20050601/sp_nypost/jaxpalhelpsoutherb

It is sort of shocking that he doesn't with the amount of experience he has on the bench. Hell most jobs have that as your basic resume type of question. Where do you see yourself in 5 years, what do you think you can bring to the organization, what would you do if you were in the position of management.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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6/10/2005  2:35 PM
Just thinking about it. I will compare Herb with Avery Johnson. Both got their gigs around the same time, exactly Herb was a head coach before Avery and assistant coach before Avery. Anyone here thinks that Avery Johnson doesn't have a coaching philosophy?
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
fishmike
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6/10/2005  2:54 PM
thats not fair. Avery was groomed by a guy with 20+ years of coaching experience. Part of a winning team, a stable organization and all part of a plan.

Herb was an assistant for 2 guys that got fired, 2 GMs that have yet to show any plan, a revolving door of players (and not too many good ones) and no job security.

Hardly a fair draw.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
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6/10/2005  3:23 PM
Posted by fishmike:

thats not fair. Avery was groomed by a guy with 20+ years of coaching experience. Part of a winning team, a stable organization and all part of a plan.

Herb was an assistant for 2 guys that got fired, 2 GMs that have yet to show any plan, a revolving door of players (and not too many good ones) and no job security.

Hardly a fair draw.
I thought JVG was the s*it, as the young people use to say. Wasn't he a hell of a coach that everyone misses? Anyway, Fish if you think it is ok to have a guy not learn what or not to do after 5 years of sitting on a sideline with a knowledgable guy like JVG, a season coach like Channey and and a Hall of Fame coach like Wilkens. Then chances are you aren't ever going to get it.
I don't know what a GM really has to with a head coach running drills, making player rotations, and getting the most out of their player's abilities. My favorite example of this Stu Jackson 90-91 season, and Riley 91-92 season. Essentially the same roster. Except one finished with a ridculous record, while the other went to game 7 of of the East semi finals against one of the best teams.
As far as the revolving door, like everyone says about Isiah, inherit risk, Herb knew the deal before he became head coach, probably could give a seminar on how this organization works.
Job security? Well wouldn't we all want to have wonder job security. But this is the real world. Unfortunately, no one just usually gives it to you. I am sure O'Brien, Silas, Saunders, and many other coaches wish they had that too.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
fishmike
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6/10/2005  4:01 PM
I dont get it... what are you saying? That Herb should have done a better job regardless?

I think most here think that, but how much better?

Do we just need time? A different coach?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
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6/10/2005  5:02 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I dont get it... what are you saying? That Herb should have done a better job regardless?

I think most here think that, but how much better?

Do we just need time? A different coach?
We need a coach that has his own style. Whether it be defense, up temo, run and gun. That coach needs to communicate to the GM, look we need this guy to play my style or we need this guy to complement a star's ability. Personally I would like Herb to interview for the head coach job just like PJ, Phil or anyone else. Put out his agenda and how he thinks the team should go. Why the team needs to get rid of this guy, etc. etc. Maybe the club is not going in Herb's direction. But this notion that Herb should be groom just because he is Ewing's friend and was a solid backup is absurd. Like any player either the guy has the talent to get the job done or he doesn't. If he does great, help him out by giving advise on what staff he should be looking for, and assuring him that money is not an option. Hey applaud Herb for seeking advice from Tex Winter (I am concern that he doesn't have an identify after 5 years on the sideline), hell bring Tex, to be he was the real genius behind that triangle offense. But if you see that your coach has no agenda and is only there for the paycheck, just like player cut that guy loose.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
tomverve
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6/10/2005  5:38 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I guess if Isiah craps out on this draft we can always wait and see what he does with the uber valuable TT/Penny expiring contracts. Then the next trading deadline. Then the next draft... hey, it will only be his 3rd draft, this takes time, then Houston, Mo, JYD and Shandon's deals will be coming off the books and he can really do some work.

I don't think that's a fair take on what I'm trying to say. If Isiah comes up short in this draft, let alone two consecutive drafts, of course he deserves the criticism (although, yes, it will likely take more than a year or two to fully evaluate the impact of a given draft). But this isn't the third draft under Isiah; in fact, it's effectively the first, and you haven't even given him a chance to show what he can do before you drop all the bombs. I find that to be unreasonable.
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Bobby
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6/10/2005  9:33 PM
imo, waiting for zeke to get good draft picks to bail out ny's losing record is the dumbest thing a knick fan could wish for. if you didn't notice, or still wearing rose color glasses, all the trades that were made did nothing to put ny in a winning situation.



"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
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