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Who's crippling this francise?
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fishmike
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6/9/2005  3:45 PM
why not? Its that very philosophy that got us here. Since so many prospects dont pan out why bother right?

OR

*SOME* teams stockpile prospects. Teams like Dallas. And while some are total busts or wastes of money some turn out to be pretty good. Maybe Pavel or the big African kid are garbage, but do you notice they add 1-2 prospects every year? Yet Knick fans cry because we dont have guys like Josh Howard, Dirk, or Marquis Daniels. Sure Devin Harris has struggled and Tariq is total waste.

Its a philosophy, and while we ignore it we will ALWAYS be mediocre.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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Pharzeone
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6/9/2005  3:54 PM
Posted by fishmike:

rvhoss,
My comment on Miami was relevent. Your exactly right, they did suck. Thats the point. I'm willing to suck if management (like Miami's did) just came out and said we are going build a team. Sucking allowed them to draft Butler and Wade. Add a good pick in Haslem and they were cooking. It was all accelerated by the contract snafu that got them the cap space but look at who they went after: Brand and Odom.

Yes, they got some luck there with the Odom thing. Dido mentioned Miami and Detroit. When those teams were bad did either of them trade draft picks? Did they add large contracts? Did they add expensive veteran players?

In fact pick any team thats gone from bad to good in recent years and show me one thats done so by adding bad deals attached to veteran players and trading draft picks.

Didnt Isiah say he was going to make the Knicks younger and more athletic? So he gets a great pick with Ariza and adds Marbury and Crawford. Ok.. so far the shoe fits. But in doing so we also added Malik Rose, Vin Baker, Penny Hardaway and Jerome Williams. Has taking all that crap been worth it?

Let me ask you this. Which part of what Isiah has done so far gives you great confidence about where he's taking this team?
Fish please let me know when Miami said that they were rebuilding. They got rid of Mourning because the man's kidney wasn't working. Tim Hardaway was ancient and Marjle couldn't move. The Grant signing is far worst than anything Grunfeld, Layden and Isiah did combined. Throw in the Mason fisaco. Riley didn't quit because he thought it was a job well done, the man quit to save his image and sanity. If he wasn't a part owner he would have fired himself. I give him credit for drafting Butler and Wade. The Odom signing to me was a wash because he been chasing him like a rainbow (If it wasn't Sterling, Riley would have got his butt handed to him for tampering. Give him all the credit in the world he picked up Wade when 4 other teams left him on the board. And Shaq told the NY media that he doesn't want to play in NY because of traffic whatever that means. Luck, good and bad fortune, helped that team out.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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6/9/2005  3:59 PM
Posted by fishmike:

why not? Its that very philosophy that got us here. Since so many prospects dont pan out why bother right?

OR

*SOME* teams stockpile prospects. Teams like Dallas. And while some are total busts or wastes of money some turn out to be pretty good. Maybe Pavel or the big African kid are garbage, but do you notice they add 1-2 prospects every year? Yet Knick fans cry because we dont have guys like Josh Howard, Dirk, or Marquis Daniels. Sure Devin Harris has struggled and Tariq is total waste.

Its a philosophy, and while we ignore it we will ALWAYS be mediocre.
So let me get this straight, if Isiah continues to draft prospect keep them and get rid of veterans, and these prospects never pan out but were at the time viewed as good prospects, you would be happy?
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Allanfan20
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6/9/2005  4:02 PM
Pat Riley actually said this quote when they drafted Caron Butler "I think it's safe to say that we are rebuilding." Look for yourself. And while the heat rebuilt, Dallas rebuilds and changes their image to a more defensive minded team (B/c it was clear that the greatest show on Earth wasn't doing it) and Portland looks to change their gangsta image, our image is this: "Make the playoffs at all costs, and since it's NY, keep attempting to win with mediocre talent when we're out of the playoff picture, b/c we are shortsighted" That's our image.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Allanfan20
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6/9/2005  4:06 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by fishmike:

why not? Its that very philosophy that got us here. Since so many prospects dont pan out why bother right?

OR

*SOME* teams stockpile prospects. Teams like Dallas. And while some are total busts or wastes of money some turn out to be pretty good. Maybe Pavel or the big African kid are garbage, but do you notice they add 1-2 prospects every year? Yet Knick fans cry because we dont have guys like Josh Howard, Dirk, or Marquis Daniels. Sure Devin Harris has struggled and Tariq is total waste.

Its a philosophy, and while we ignore it we will ALWAYS be mediocre.
So let me get this straight, if Isiah continues to draft prospect keep them and get rid of veterans, and these prospects never pan out but were at the time viewed as good prospects, you would be happy?

I know you didn't ask me, but I wouldn't be happy that they didn't pan out they way I wanted, but I'd be happy we changed the direction we were going, b/c it's clear that what we're doing right now hasn't been working, b/c in 5 years, we missed the playoffs 3 times and were beat in the 1st round twice. And in all that time, it's a shame but our best prospect in all the losing has been Trevor Ariza.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
fishmike
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6/9/2005  4:07 PM
Riley said point blank that fans needed to be patient because they were in a tough situation and they were going to have to use the draft to upgrade their roster. The draft Caron Butler, Dwane Wade and Haslem.

You will notice they DIDNT package any of those picks for a veteran player to put with Eddie Jone and Brian Grant. They didnt trade for a veteran player either. The added lower level guys and used the draft.

Their process was accelerated because of the contract situation and that netted them Odom, but their plan from the get go was use the draft and stay as flexible as possible. Thats what Riley said. Thats the plan and philosophy he stuck too.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Allanfan20
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6/9/2005  4:12 PM
Until he traded Odom and Butler for Shaq but hey.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
fishmike
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6/9/2005  4:14 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:


So let me get this straight, if Isiah continues to draft prospect keep them and get rid of veterans, and these prospects never pan out but were at the time viewed as good prospects, you would be happy?
would I be happy? Hell no.. I would be pissed. Who wants to see a crappy team? However thats a solid plan because it gives options. You have leverage with high picks. Even if you make dubious decision you will still find yourself in a manageable postion. Who has been worse than the Bulls? Yet now 6 years later who's in better position in the NBA than the Bulls? Maybe 3-4 teams, but here's a franchise that used that philosophy to a fault, had bad drafts (Fizer, Jay Williams, traded Brand, Artest, Miller) and is STILL in great position.

Whats the worst? In 3 years we have a bunch of young average players right? You know what else we have? $25mm in cap space to sign free agents or take back contracts in a trade. Either way we are in pretty good position.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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6/9/2005  4:23 PM
The baron davis trade was nuts! I would not do it. It worked well for 20 games, not 5 years!

They are on the line for his salary with no insurance. MSG can pick up that kind of money, but its tough for a small market. The hornets will drop back and punt than continue that risk.

I applaude the Warriors for putting their balls on the table and taking the risk, but they are not over the cap. They can contend next year and be a fun team to watch. They dumped Damp also, which was very smart. NOt that resisgning their other center was that bright, but hey, not all teams work the magic!
Pharzeone
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6/9/2005  4:24 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Pat Riley actually said this quote when they drafted Caron Butler "I think it's safe to say that we are rebuilding." Look for yourself. And while the heat rebuilt, Dallas rebuilds and changes their image to a more defensive minded team (B/c it was clear that the greatest show on Earth wasn't doing it) and Portland looks to change their gangsta image, our image is this: "Make the playoffs at all costs, and since it's NY, keep attempting to win with mediocre talent when we're out of the playoff picture, b/c we are shortsighted" That's our image.
Please let me know when Dallas changed their image to a defensive minded team and please back it up with stats, let me know when Portland changes that image and let Mo Cheeks in on it too. That is besides the point.
I still say this, there was no way to rebuild while you had Allan Houston is on this roster. Nalod mentioned that Isiah knew about Houston's contract before he got here, I sure he did but he didn't know the man was now a gimp. Hell Isiah went out and tried to get players to surround the guy with. It wasn't suppose to be just Marbury's team. Crawford was brought in to back up Houston. If that is the case why come the Knicks didn't start from scratch when Ewing was here in final years. That team wasn't going to win you a championship. I will agree with you on this, this team should rebuilt years ago, not trade for a Glen Rice, and a bunch of never were has been centers, not sign an above average 2 guard to $100 million contract, not waste draft picks like they are monopoly money.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Bonn1997
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6/9/2005  4:33 PM
Posted by rvhoss:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

Marbury is a good player, and I like Crawford also, but based on other deals around the NBA Isiah grossly overpaid. To me that doesnt constitute making a good move. The player is good the move is bad.
There's a huge difference between Baron and Marbury. You get Baron for 50 games a season; you get Marbury for 82.
Overpaid for Crawford? He gave up Mutombo, Harrington, and Frank Williams. Which of those three made it too much? Or are you talking about his salary when you say overpaid? His salary is about $0.5 mil more than the average NBA player's salary. And given Jamal's talent and youth, I don't think an average NBA salary is overpaying.

Fish, this is the post you should be reading.
Too bad he ignored it. Given the information I posted above it would be interesting to know how (a) we overpaid for Crawford and (b) a star who plays 50 games a year (Baron Davis) is relevant to our evaluation of the Marbury trade
fishmike
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6/9/2005  4:36 PM
ditto that... let Ewing walk and start over. I partially agree with you on the Houston thing, while he's here there wasnt going to be a fire sale, especially after he got hurt. That doesnt mean the Knicks coulnt have changed their philosophy. I wont harp about the picks Layden traded which hurt us. Its spilled milk. It was feasable to rebuild in other ways. Isiah promised to turn over every rock and use unconventional means to build the team. Thinking of guys like John Starks and Mason I was pretty happy to hear that. I would have been happy with drafting the BPA, and signing guys like Dermaar Johnson, Eddie Griffin, Rodney White, Steven Hunter, Chris Mihm, Raja Bell. Sure, most are doodoo but the only way you find the next Ben Wallace or Brad Miller (undrafted both) is by giving some a chance. Worst case you waive them after a while and keep looking.
If Mo Taylor doesnt work he's not going anywhere. Instead spent $4mm on Vin Baker. If that was the "price" for the Crawford deal than I'm sorry we overpaid.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
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6/9/2005  4:37 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Pharzeone:


So let me get this straight, if Isiah continues to draft prospect keep them and get rid of veterans, and these prospects never pan out but were at the time viewed as good prospects, you would be happy?
would I be happy? Hell no.. I would be pissed. Who wants to see a crappy team? However thats a solid plan because it gives options. You have leverage with high picks. Even if you make dubious decision you will still find yourself in a manageable postion. Who has been worse than the Bulls? Yet now 6 years later who's in better position in the NBA than the Bulls? Maybe 3-4 teams, but here's a franchise that used that philosophy to a fault, had bad drafts (Fizer, Jay Williams, traded Brand, Artest, Miller) and is STILL in great position.

Whats the worst? In 3 years we have a bunch of young average players right? You know what else we have? $25mm in cap space to sign free agents or take back contracts in a trade. Either way we are in pretty good position.
I understand this but you do realize that despite what we think of Dolan, this still is a businesss. We can go on and on about how much we are fans and what he we would do if... But that's not my livihood, I don't have money wrapped up in that team. If Dolan thinks that super stars or acquiring veterans will help him sell tickets and he sells those tickets, you aren't going to win the argument. That's what frustrated Dolan about Layden. The team wasn't winning but people weren't coming either. You won't be able to survive that one. Isiah gets here makes a trade for an "all-star" and sells out games. If you can promise Dolan that people will still come to his arena if the rebuilding process takes 3 to 6 years and you can vouch for the lost funds, then hell yeah, I think he would be on board.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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6/9/2005  4:51 PM
Posted by fishmike:

ditto that... let Ewing walk and start over. I partially agree with you on the Houston thing, while he's here there wasnt going to be a fire sale, especially after he got hurt. That doesnt mean the Knicks coulnt have changed their philosophy. I wont harp about the picks Layden traded which hurt us. Its spilled milk. It was feasable to rebuild in other ways. Isiah promised to turn over every rock and use unconventional means to build the team. Thinking of guys like John Starks and Mason I was pretty happy to hear that. I would have been happy with drafting the BPA, and signing guys like Dermaar Johnson, Eddie Griffin, Rodney White, Steven Hunter, Chris Mihm, Raja Bell. Sure, most are doodoo but the only way you find the next Ben Wallace or Brad Miller (undrafted both) is by giving some a chance. Worst case you waive them after a while and keep looking.
If Mo Taylor doesnt work he's not going anywhere. Instead spent $4mm on Vin Baker. If that was the "price" for the Crawford deal than I'm sorry we overpaid.
That's why I think no GM could ever succeed here, really unless they get lucky and draft a Ewing. I still remember that press conference when Isiah said he wanted to rebuild but Dolan corrected him. THAT WAS AT HIS INTRODUCTION PRESS CONFERENCE. As far as I am concern that Marbury trade was from a higher source. Colangelo said Layden was trying to acquire Marbury ever since he got traded from the Nets but couldn't put a deal together (ESPN magazine Jan. 2004). Much like the Houston contract, that stuff is out of your hands. Even Spreewell's deal was overpaying. But like you said it is milk that spillith over.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
fishmike
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6/9/2005  4:53 PM
Phar.. I have enjoyed this. You make great points. Especially the last. Your right, its a business and to me thats where ISiah has failed in some regards. I think if anyone could have sold a "retool" to the fans and the Dolans its Isiah. Heck.. he even said something like "we may struggle some but we will have a tough fast team that NY can be proud of." I hear that and I see guys like Ariza and Sweetney getting a lot of burn. Not adding Mo Taylors and Vin Bakers.

Why cant Isiah sell NY the notion of exciting young players? Feature Ariza highlights in comercials. Maybe I'm the one that overestimates that but I had hoped he could do it.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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6/9/2005  5:20 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Phar.. I have enjoyed this. You make great points. Especially the last. Your right, its a business and to me thats where ISiah has failed in some regards. I think if anyone could have sold a "retool" to the fans and the Dolans its Isiah. Heck.. he even said something like "we may struggle some but we will have a tough fast team that NY can be proud of." I hear that and I see guys like Ariza and Sweetney getting a lot of burn. Not adding Mo Taylors and Vin Bakers.

Why cant Isiah sell NY the notion of exciting young players? Feature Ariza highlights in comercials. Maybe I'm the one that overestimates that but I had hoped he could do it.

I feel like this draft will be the final judgement as to how Isiah intends to build. Does he go for the young, athletic, exciting players he talks about or more boring, "safe" picks or worst of all, trade the picks for a Kwame or a Curry. If he drafts well, and keeps adding the young pieces like Ariza and Craw, I can't be mad about adding a Mo Taylor, especially only giving up Vin and Moochie and a second round pick. Dolan wants to spend the money, it's fine to take a risk like that. The Nazr trade hurt, but it was to get draft picks i.e. to add youth, so that IS in keeping with his philosophy.

I think Zeke is trying to rebuild, every single trade has made them younger and faster (if you count the picks acquired in the Nazr trade, rather than Malik). But, at the same time, they can't blow up the team, per Dolan, who is a ridiculous idiot.

I mean, they DO feature Ariza in the commercials and make it seem like this is a young, athletic, dunking team. And we are, we just aren't very good, don't play defense, don't have size. I think Isiah has been doing a decent job, but he gets killed.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 06/09/2005 17:22:38]
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Pharzeone
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6/9/2005  5:36 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Phar.. I have enjoyed this. You make great points. Especially the last. Your right, its a business and to me thats where ISiah has failed in some regards. I think if anyone could have sold a "retool" to the fans and the Dolans its Isiah. Heck.. he even said something like "we may struggle some but we will have a tough fast team that NY can be proud of." I hear that and I see guys like Ariza and Sweetney getting a lot of burn. Not adding Mo Taylors and Vin Bakers.

Why cant Isiah sell NY the notion of exciting young players? Feature Ariza highlights in comercials. Maybe I'm the one that overestimates that but I had hoped he could do it.
I think he would sell some NYers but not all. That Mo Taylor deal was bad because there doesn't seem to be any returns on the deal. You are right about it except it says something of what he thinks of the progress of Sweetney. The truth is that even if Isiah did everything Briggs, and you guys want he won't be around to take credit for any of it. Like Nalod said it is an inherent risk, you know that you must win now, or else you won't be here. If people still go to the games while you are rebuilding than hell I bet you that Dolan wouldn't care if you rebuild. As much as I love the passion you guys have for the Knicks are truth is that is not shared by everyone. You tell your average season ticket fan, that we are going to go after Bynum, trade Marbury, develop draft picks for the next couple of years and wait these guys out. I bet they couldn't wait to dump their tickets. Hell Billy Knight is telling eveyone down in Atlanta that is game plan and people are saying oh yeah well I see you at the Falcon games, let me know when you decide to win again (no one should be able to get season tickets for $200). It is tough, you guys want to hear rebuild, while the owner wants to hear profits, and your average season ticket holder wants to hear big name star.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
rvhoss
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6/9/2005  9:21 PM
Posted by fishmike:

man.... your "extremely happy"

blame my mom

If you call $40mm of Penny a servicable or valuable anything I dont really see much point in this debate.

I'm not irritated we missed the playoffs. I'm irritated we have a GM that added over $200mm in veteran players and we missed the playoffs, at the same time those veteran players cost us picks and prospects that could have helped the rebuilding process.

4 first round picks next two years (counting this one)

All I can say is I would love to come and work for you :)

I get that all the time. =)
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Bonn1997
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6/9/2005  10:39 PM
Posted by rvhoss:
Posted by fishmike:

man.... your "extremely happy"

blame my mom

If you call $40mm of Penny a servicable or valuable anything I dont really see much point in this debate.

I'm not irritated we missed the playoffs. I'm irritated we have a GM that added over $200mm in veteran players and we missed the playoffs, at the same time those veteran players cost us picks and prospects that could have helped the rebuilding process.

4 first round picks next two years (counting this one)

All I can say is I would love to come and work for you :)

I get that all the time. =)
Yeah, the comment about the veterans costing us picks makes no sense since we added two late 1st rd picks. The comment about Isiah giving up too much to get Crawford made no sense either.
tomverve
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6/10/2005  2:23 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Riley said point blank that fans needed to be patient because they were in a tough situation and they were going to have to use the draft to upgrade their roster. The draft Caron Butler, Dwane Wade and Haslem.

Isiah's been saying the same things-- patience, tough situation, draft, etc. On balance, I think he's been consistent with his stated plan to get younger and more athletic players. The only trade that doesn't seem to fit in is the Taylor trade, and his contract is not particularly poisonous since it coincides with Houston's.

The thing I find really curious is that all these criticisms are taking place with the draft just weeks away. It will only be Isiah's second draft with us, and he hit a homer in his first with very limited resources. Why don't we just wait a little longer and let Isiah's actions speak for him?

As an aside, maybe it's not my place to butt in, and I don't spend enough time here to get a really indepth sense of poster history, but... Nalod, you're coming off looking really petty and over-the-top the way you respond to Bonn. From what I can see, he's making reasonable arguments (not arguments you have to agree with, but at least reasonable), and what comes back is like something from middle school. Grow up.
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