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Who's crippling this francise?
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Bonn1997
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6/9/2005  1:45 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Read my post more carefully fish. There is a difference between claiming he's made a brilliant move (or even some brilliant moves) and saying he's been a brilliant GM. My comment referred to the latter; Diderton's to the former. Just read more carefully next time.
dude, I dont read your posts at all, except when they are like one line.
Same here. I don't read yours unless they're short or unless I'm really bored like today. Otherwise, I already know what you're saying anyway. It's about how much of a disaster Isiah is and how Vin Baker was the key to our future.
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Bonn1997
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6/9/2005  1:46 PM
Posted by Ira:

I can't say Isaiah's been brilliant, but he's made some very good moves and only one very bad one. The bad one was hiring Lenny Wilkens when Fratello was available. The good ones were trading for Marbury, trading for Crawford and drafting Ariza. The other trades were either neutral or of little consequence.

So, all in all, I think he's been a positive influence. When he came, the only assets we had were aging - their trade value diminishing. Now we've got some talented young players and a very good point guard who's in his prime.

In the next few weeks, we'll have an new coach and some new players. That will give us more to base our judgements on. Let's keep our fingers crossed.
That's my exact interpretation too on all accounts.
Nalod
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6/9/2005  1:47 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by Bonn1997:
so if Isiah makes a good move its "see! He's brilliant."
When Isiah makes a suspect move we arent being patient enough.
There you go again. NO ONE here is saying he's been brilliant

Snitman, your not saying anything, just sitting around annoyed like some old bitter biyatch is not cool. YOur sounding like some old fag up in Provicetown who let life pass you by! Some old loney old fag with hemroids the sice of donuts just eating at your charactor. Your better than this, act it!
Lol. before today it had been a while since you called me snit man. I guess things are back to normal and your child level vocabulary is back. I missed it

Sorry, I forgot you prefer "snitty Gay Robot"!
Bonn1997
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6/9/2005  1:49 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by Bonn1997:
so if Isiah makes a good move its "see! He's brilliant."
When Isiah makes a suspect move we arent being patient enough.
There you go again. NO ONE here is saying he's been brilliant

Snitman, your not saying anything, just sitting around annoyed like some old bitter biyatch is not cool. YOur sounding like some old fag up in Provicetown who let life pass you by! Some old loney old fag with hemroids the sice of donuts just eating at your charactor. Your better than this, act it!
Lol. before today it had been a while since you called me snit man. I guess things are back to normal and your child level vocabulary is back. I missed it

Sorry, I forgot you prefer "snitty Gay Robot"!
Yup; that goes up from at least 4th to 5th grade. You're becoming smarter by the minute!
Nalod
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6/9/2005  1:57 PM
Posted by Ira:

I can't say Isaiah's been brilliant, but he's made some very good moves and only one very bad one. The bad one was hiring Lenny Wilkens when Fratello was available. The good ones were trading for Marbury, trading for Crawford and drafting Ariza. The other trades were either neutral or of little consequence.

So, all in all, I think he's been a positive influence. When he came, the only assets we had were aging - their trade value diminishing. Now we've got some talented young players and a very good point guard who's in his prime.

In the next few weeks, we'll have an new coach and some new players. That will give us more to base our judgements on. Let's keep our fingers crossed.
Ira, good post, but while the moves seemed to be crafty and with purpose, they were not quite rebuilding, and slanted more for the present. The end result was a disaster!

Changes for the sake of it is not always an improvement. Layden/chaneys team the year before Isiah came aboard was a nice little team. We did not panic after the Dice thing blew up and I thought by NOT doing anyting and eating time we were on the right track. The assets Isiah used were capital Layden had provided. IM not saying Layden did a good job, but I think the "dead garden" was the realization that we needed to stop panicing and start planning long term. We needed to lose before we could win. Dolan Fired Layden cuz he could not accept this. We had expiring contracts, and it was layden that laid the ground work for Marbs. Maybe he did not want to pay such a price, and Dolan needed his star!

Lots of ifs, but Patience and acceptance makes for the ability to turn it around. Isiah was bought in to do a job and its not his fault. If this is true, then I don't soley blame Layden for ALL his mistakes.

Misfortune is a long drawn out process of bad evaluations, bad health, and bad luck! IT happens!
rvhoss
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6/9/2005  2:14 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

Marbury is a good player, and I like Crawford also, but based on other deals around the NBA Isiah grossly overpaid. To me that doesnt constitute making a good move. The player is good the move is bad.
There's a huge difference between Baron and Marbury. You get Baron for 50 games a season; you get Marbury for 82.
Overpaid for Crawford? He gave up Mutombo, Harrington, and Frank Williams. Which of those three made it too much? Or are you talking about his salary when you say overpaid? His salary is about $0.5 mil more than the average NBA player's salary. And given Jamal's talent and youth, I don't think an average NBA salary is overpaying.

Fish, this is the post you should be reading.

What GM has turned their team around (to this forum's expectations ofcourse) in less time.

I think the original intent of this post was to ask why everyone is calling for Zeke's head after 1.5 years on the job?

Don't get me started on Miami...

Miami S-U-C-K-E-D for a few years before the lucked into Wade (yep, LUCKED) and Shaq (the most dominant player in the game) FORCED the trade to Miami...it had nothing to do with Riley (unless him tampering with shaq counts).
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rvhoss
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6/9/2005  2:17 PM
and so my post wasn't too long, Miami shot their load this year.

They will make a second round exit next year too little or no fanfare.

Shaq gave it his all and he still couldn't play a full season and playoffs.

Shaq will win a title 2 years from now for the lakers when he takes a pay cut and buttons his lip.

[sorry for the shaq bashing, I just think he burnt a ton of bridges and it's going to come back to haunt him when he continues to break down and get old]
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rvhoss
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6/9/2005  2:20 PM
And don't say the bulls or wizards or warriors.

Taking the Grizzlies, Timberwolves and for that matter the knicks as examples, making the playoffs one year in a row does not a turnaround make.
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fishmike
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6/9/2005  2:29 PM
rvhoss,
My comment on Miami was relevent. Your exactly right, they did suck. Thats the point. I'm willing to suck if management (like Miami's did) just came out and said we are going build a team. Sucking allowed them to draft Butler and Wade. Add a good pick in Haslem and they were cooking. It was all accelerated by the contract snafu that got them the cap space but look at who they went after: Brand and Odom.

Yes, they got some luck there with the Odom thing. Dido mentioned Miami and Detroit. When those teams were bad did either of them trade draft picks? Did they add large contracts? Did they add expensive veteran players?

In fact pick any team thats gone from bad to good in recent years and show me one thats done so by adding bad deals attached to veteran players and trading draft picks.

Didnt Isiah say he was going to make the Knicks younger and more athletic? So he gets a great pick with Ariza and adds Marbury and Crawford. Ok.. so far the shoe fits. But in doing so we also added Malik Rose, Vin Baker, Penny Hardaway and Jerome Williams. Has taking all that crap been worth it?

Let me ask you this. Which part of what Isiah has done so far gives you great confidence about where he's taking this team?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
franco12
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6/9/2005  2:42 PM
whether or not you like isaih or his moves or the job he's done, the fact is Cablevision and dolan own the team and I think that's what's crippling the franchise.

God could be the GM and Dolan would still want a 1st round exit rather than build for a true championship run.

I don't buy this bs that fans won't watch a rebuilding team.

This is NYC and its about hustle and effort.

Give me 5 guys with no talent, but heart and I could watch them loose 82 games if I knew they were getting better and building a team to make a run in 5 years.
fishmike
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6/9/2005  2:45 PM
What GM has turned their team around (to this forum's expectations ofcourse) in less time.
Sorry, I didnt answer your question. I'm not sure what your looking for, or what you think I am looking for.
Define "turn around"
When you see all the teams that have turned things around you see very similar trends. You see patience and using the draft. Look at all the playoff teams in the east. Wash, Det, Mia, Bos, NJ, Phili, Pacers and Bulls. In going from bad teams to good teams every one of those teams had two things. Patience and they used the draft. They took time for players to develop chemistry. They took time for young players to get better. They used the draft too add key players to their rotation and inject energy into their teams. They havent added players with big contracts that kill their flexibility with the possible exception of Bos (Raef) and Phili (CWebb). But those teams both restocked their teams with drafted talent as well as those veterans.

How has Isiah shown any patience?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
rvhoss
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6/9/2005  2:46 PM
I was extremely happy with the Marbs deal, and penny was a serviceable throw in, his contract expires this year, so he proved to be a valuable throw in.

TT (young and athletic) and Nazr (well, young anyway) for KVH is right up there as a great trade, TT had a career high in points (albeit only 16 ppg) before his family tragedy, so I was extremly happy with the team at that point:
Marbs, H20 (he was healthy), TT, Kurt, Nazr

Then, he put together two packages to fill the open roster spots of the expiring TT and Penny deals, one via draft (Ariza - young and athletic) and another via sign and trade (Crawford - young and athletic)

Again, extremly happy with the team we have now:
Marbs, H20 (he said he was healthy), TT, Kurt, Nazr
bench: Crawford, Ariza, Sweets
To me, this is the type of 8 man playoff rotation riley would love.

Then H20 went down and we had to go to emergency mode.

So he dumped Nazr for two first round draft picks (younger) and Rose (pretty much a wash in the younger athletic department).

I'm still a fan of the MoT trade, but I'll put that in the crap category, and the Lenny hiring (black pride, only reason I can think of) sucked, but who knew, when we made the playoffs, he seemed like a good coach.

So, we say H20 not coming back is Zeke's fault (just for the sake of argument) we now have a lineup of
Marbs, Craw, TT, Rose, Kurt
Bench: sweets, ariza, MoT
and two first round draft picks, or 1 first round, one 1.5 round and another early second round pick (again, younger, younger and younger)

So, I say, I'm feeling good about the direction we are headed, and I'll repeat what has been stated, had h20 been healthy, we would have not had to make the Rose and MoT deals because we wouldn't have had a lotto pick and we would have been bounced in the second round by detroit.

I like the fact that he recognized that Nazr wasn't gonna do much for us and cut our losses.

So, while I'm not saying Zeke is the Brilliant Genius GM on a Jerry West (missed playoffs) or Kevin McHale (missed playoffs) or even a Pat Riley (lucked into shaq).

I am saying he is not the disaster he is being made out to be ("he drafts a superstar this year or he's fired", "this is isiahs last chance", "we should have kept Moochie and traded him for Jesus").

I'm just saying, let's be enthusiastic for the fact that we have:
4 first round draft picks, Two GIGANTIC Expiring contracts and a core squad of
Marbs, Crawford, Sweets, Ariza
surrounded by crafty veterans
Rose (has a ring), Kurt (double double machine), H20 (if he plays, it's 16 a game)

So, yep, I'm extremely confident we will make a better turnaround than the bulls or wizards or celtics or sixers.

We're in much better shape in my opinion and if you are so sure we aren't, think of your thoughts on the sonics and suns before this year.

GO KNICKS!
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rvhoss
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6/9/2005  2:53 PM
Posted by fishmike:

[quote] When you see all the teams that have turned things around you see very similar trends. You see patience and using the draft. Look at all the playoff teams in the east. Wash, Det, Mia, Bos, NJ, Phili, Pacers and Bulls. How has Isiah shown any patience?

It's been 1.5 years and 1 draft. How long did it take Wash (let's see what they do next year), Det (it's been year's between championships and the got larry brown, a great coach), Mia (we already discussed this, shaq does not = patience), Bos (come on, they are a house of cards), NJ (maybe, but we'll see, there's a reason Kidd wants out), Phili (next year will SUCK), Pacers (have they won it ever?), and bulls (let's see what they do next year).

If patience = suck until you are good, then we're right on track.

But to say after one draft with only one pick (the other pick was basically marbury) and say he's not making moves toward our future is kind of shortsighted.

I think he should get 4 years to get us back to contention, but there is no way that will happen.

1.5 years, you need to give me a GM that has done a better job in equal or less time.

Remember, we lost our Best shooter and arguably our best player last year.

You answer me that and I'll jump on the fire isiah bandwagon, until then, I'm extremely happy with this squad and our future.
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franco12
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6/9/2005  2:54 PM
so we turn it around next year, we're headed for a first round exit and we'll have to hand over our first round pick to Phoenix, no?

Then, without an infusion of youth, we'll miss the playoffs altogether the year after.

I'd like to dream of a championship- perhaps I am foolish.
Pharzeone
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6/9/2005  3:01 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

the problem here is not only the results so far of the past 1.5 years BUT the uncertainty about what the future holds.

since there is no plan that is tangible, we're stuck wondering if it's the same ol' same ol' or something new.

so far, it's the same piece of sh t ride with a new coat of paint.

i could've easily fired isiah for simply not shutting down marbury in april, and giving ariza 30 mins and butler 15-20. that's downright dispicable - there's no defending it.

but we're stuck in this state of limbo and we just gotta hope...
Huh..... That's a coach's decision. Marbury wasn't on the IR list so Williams played him. If Isiah would have told Herb something like that I know without a doubt that the press, Herb fans (you know who you are)would be screaming that he screwed Herb over because he wouldn't let him use Marbury. And you would be right. The man stayed out of the coach way so he can be given a chance to make decisions. If you don't like those decisions take it up with Herb. It is call misplace anger.
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rvhoss
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6/9/2005  3:02 PM
Posted by franco12:

so we turn it around next year, we're headed for a first round exit and we'll have to hand over our first round pick to Phoenix, no?

Then, without an infusion of youth, we'll miss the playoffs altogether the year after.

I'd like to dream of a championship- perhaps I am foolish.

well, to change the subject a bit:
What should he have done to prevent a next year first round exit?

I see us making it to the second round next year.

And the following year contending.

I see no reason why we can't get an athletic big in another 1.5 years and a defensive wing...we're all in agreement that's all we need at this point to be a contender.

If he can't get us that, then he's fired, but unless I'm missing something, we are right on track.

Heaven forbig Houston plays.

Miami and Detroit and Indiana are still the cream of the crop in the East, the others are all passable with our current team (remember 16 - 13).

We add a shot blocking center OR a defensive wing player and we are the 3 seed (by winning our division).

I'm not even considering Crawford and/or Ariza getting better over the summer (it has happened you know).

Doom and Gloom are for Mets fans...these are the knicks.
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rvhoss
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6/9/2005  3:04 PM
I'm willing to bet a quarter share of someone's season tickets we make the playoffs next year...depending on who we draft, I could up that to making the second round ($40 seats please)

[Edited by - rvhoss on 06/09/2005 15:06:04]
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fishmike
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6/9/2005  3:31 PM
man.... your "extremely happy" with a 32 win team that is packed full of players with bad contracts.

If you call $40mm of Penny a servicable or valuable anything I dont really see much point in this debate.

I'm not irritated we missed the playoffs. I'm irritated we have a GM that added over $200mm in veteran players and we missed the playoffs, at the same time those veteran players cost us picks and prospects that could have helped the rebuilding process.

All I can say is I would love to come and work for you :)
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
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6/9/2005  3:34 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by Bonn1997:
so if Isiah makes a good move its "see! He's brilliant."
When Isiah makes a suspect move we arent being patient enough.
There you go again. NO ONE here is saying he's been brilliant

Snitman, your not saying anything, just sitting around annoyed like some old bitter biyatch is not cool. YOur sounding like some old fag up in Provicetown who let life pass you by! Some old loney old fag with hemroids the sice of donuts just eating at your charactor. Your better than this, act it!

You guys are all right by the way. Good arguements!

Patience is having a tolerence to lose to get better. We don't have that.

Shandon and ALLans contract is not keeping us down cuz they were in play a long time ago, and are the WORKING CIRCUMSTANCES Isiah had when he walked in the door. Its not like they fell from the sky.

Funny thing almost said about allans deal, in a way its diluted with all the other ones.

Miami Bit it by letting Zo go, and getting picks. Under the cap they manipulated the Brand Offer to get Odom, and thus had working capital to get shaq. FIrst they had to eat Grant and Eddie jones. They could have taken worse deals in return, but Riles does not have an abyss of cash, and its not a smart thing!

Patience is an asset we don't have, and its not really Isiahs fault either.
Sure patience is an asset you have. It's not like this team has been winning championships and you gotten so used to it. I would take a guess not too many on this forum even remember the last championship. I can understand a Celtic or Laker fan going on about not having patience because they know what it is like to have a championship team.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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6/9/2005  3:38 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Marbury is a good player, and I like Crawford also, but based on other deals around the NBA Isiah grossly overpaid. To me that doesnt constitute making a good move. The player is good the move is bad.

Golden State gets Baron Davis for Claxton and Dale Davis's expiring deal.
We get Marbury and give up 2 prospects, 2 picks AND take back $40mm worth of Penny Hardaway. Those are 2 stark contrasts. Even if you say somewhere in the middle is fair market we got hosed.
Please do not refer to Lampe and a guy who never and most likely never will step on US soil as prospects. Fredrick was more of a Knick than Milos. I am with you on Penny. That is the only problem that I had with the deal.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
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