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Who's crippling this francise?
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firefly
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6/9/2005  7:46 AM
I've been reading over and over on these boards about how this is Isiah's last chance, and if he doesnt make us significantly better this post-season, he should be gone.

I just wanted to point something out here, and you can all tell me if im wrong.

(dramatic trumpets): Isiah shows up at the Knicks to great fanfare, promising rings and championships all round. He makes an immediate splash by picking up one of the better guards in the league in Stephon Marbury. He manages to turn four either old, really old or downright cr*p players into a young up and coming SG in Jamal Crawford. He clicks his fingers, and turns our white, soft and fourth-quarter-troubled SF into a younger more athletic whole-season-troubled SF. He even finds us a center. Things are really starting to heat up now.

But wait, whats this!!!! It all falls to pieces. (slow operatic mourning) Why? Because the next logical step, after having secured 2 pretty good talents would be to find a solid front-court player, or two. How? Free agency of course. But the mighty Isiah, who has done so much in so little time can do nothing now. But who is this man, who would stop the mighty Isiah in his inexorable charge towards creating a Knicks utopia?!!? Who dare stand between one man, and the dreams of millions!?

Step forward, Allan Houston.

Now, this isnt about Houston. I love Houston. He was the only shining light in the horrible years after Big Pat went off to Crippled Centers heaven. Its just that the name on the contract says Allan Houston, so he's the one to blame.

Lemme ask you this. If Houston wasn't here, or if he wasn't on such an obscene contract, the knicks would be in a phenomenal situation right now. I mean, we have the 8th and 30th pick of this draft, two first-rounders next year, PLUS we will be under the cap by the end of the year!!. Thats right. Once Penny and TT expire, (this is without Houston) we are under the cap! Then the fun would begin.

So, im sorry but all those people saying that Isiah has failed us, let be honest.

The man never stood a chance.



[Edited by - firefly on 06/09/2005 07:50:49]
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
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fishmike
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6/9/2005  7:59 AM
we wouldnt be under the cap without Houston, we would still have $63mm in contracts in Rose, Taylor, KT, Crawford, Marbury, Shandon Anderson and Jerome Williams.

Right now the one who's crippling the franchise is Isiah. He also is the guy that can save it, so I hope he does the latter. Allan Houston has very little bearing on the cap. If cap space was a goal (and it could have been) Isiah killed it by adding some of the guys he did.

None of that matters. Ive been saying for awhile what the Knicks need above all else is to execute in the draft. That and only target players with some upside when it comes to trades. No more Mo Taylors
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
diderotn
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6/9/2005  8:12 AM
Who's crippling this franchise???


Dolan and Houston...
The true Knickabocker..........
firefly
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6/9/2005  8:13 AM
KT is tradable. My point was that at last year trading deadline, if Isiah would have known that we would be under the cap by the end of this year, and he probably wouldnt have trade Nazr, Baker, Moochie and whatsisname with the dreads, all of whom are expiring contracts.

Would have been a whole different kettle of fish, even without the two extra draft picks, don't you think?

[Edited by - firefly on 06/09/2005 08:14:31]
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
diderotn
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6/9/2005  9:01 AM
Isiah made some brilliant moves that folks that can't think from beyound 6" are currently criticizing....We have a chance to drastically reduce our cap in a couple of years...By then there are a lot of players, i.e., Lebron, Carmelo, even Wayde that will be available. Last season would have been ideal if we were able to get under the cap, but that wasn't the case....However, within the next 2 years, we will be a much more attractive franchise with Houston, TT, Penny, Mo T off of our cap...
The true Knickabocker..........
Nalod
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6/9/2005  9:02 AM
Posted by firefly:

I've been reading over and over on these boards about how this is Isiah's last chance, and if he doesnt make us significantly better this post-season, he should be gone.

I just wanted to point something out here, and you can all tell me if im wrong.

(dramatic trumpets): Isiah shows up at the Knicks to great fanfare, promising rings and championships all round. He makes an immediate splash by picking up one of the better guards in the league in Stephon Marbury. He manages to turn four either old, really old or downright cr*p players into a young up and coming SG in Jamal Crawford. He clicks his fingers, and turns our white, soft and fourth-quarter-troubled SF into a younger more athletic whole-season-troubled SF. He even finds us a center. Things are really starting to heat up now.

But wait, whats this!!!! It all falls to pieces. (slow operatic mourning) Why? Because the next logical step, after having secured 2 pretty good talents would be to find a solid front-court player, or two. How? Free agency of course. But the mighty Isiah, who has done so much in so little time can do nothing now. But who is this man, who would stop the mighty Isiah in his inexorable charge towards creating a Knicks utopia?!!? Who dare stand between one man, and the dreams of millions!?

Step forward, Allan Houston.

Now, this isnt about Houston. I love Houston. He was the only shining light in the horrible years after Big Pat went off to Crippled Centers heaven. Its just that the name on the contract says Allan Houston, so he's the one to blame.

Lemme ask you this. If Houston wasn't here, or if he wasn't on such an obscene contract, the knicks would be in a phenomenal situation right now. I mean, we have the 8th and 30th pick of this draft, two first-rounders next year, PLUS we will be under the cap by the end of the year!!. Thats right. Once Penny and TT expire, (this is without Houston) we are under the cap! Then the fun would begin.

So, im sorry but all those people saying that Isiah has failed us, let be honest.

The man never stood a chance.



[Edited by - firefly on 06/09/2005 07:50:49]

Great post!

Laying blame is always good sport. Its allans fault we sucked last year? Hardley. We had to overpay for crawful as insurance for Allans no return. Even if Allans contract were to magically disapear, we still are way over the cap.

I thought Isiah had a good game plan, but he missed because the players he was able to obtain were lower underachieving guys with contracts other teams wanted to dump. Even Marbury, albeit at a much higher level. Isiah thought he could enhance a professional environment and it would rub off on them.

Read the major daily rags and you'll see a common theme. Americans love to blame someone, and must put a face on some kind of evil. This week, its Allan taking the franchise down? Or Kurt? Or Marbury? Or Isiah, and when all else fails, pull out Layden and blame him.

The architecture of the team for the last 30 years is all wrong. Trading for established players past prime is a quick fix to sell tickets. This is the face of evil, and the reason I don't trust anything Isiah says because its not him I distrust, its the system.

I am encouraged by the draft picks, the movement to youth, but the lack of commitment to rebuild. The Knicks are doing what any contending team should do until they are close to making a legit run and pull in one or two pieces to seal the deal. Thats ok. But we are half committed, which is ok, but will take more time. Last year attendence was excellent cuz the buzz and the early mixed success!

I for one felt taken last year.

IF these picks are for real, and we can shed the old, and accept losing to build experience and better draft position, then we can succeed. I would support a rebuild, im just not sure corp. america whom buys big seats and ad space would support it!

That is the franchise killer, not allan, Not KT, not Isiah, and for goodness sake, not Layden.
fishmike
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6/9/2005  9:04 AM
Good GMs and teams make good moves. Bad ones make bad moves. Having Webber's massive contract didnt stop the Kings from getting Brad Miller. Having Eddie Jone's massive contract didnt stop the Heat from drafting Wade, Butler, Haslem and trading for Shaq. Every good GM and team makes mistakes. The good ones stick to a plan and dont let those mistakes run their franchise. The bottom line is because of the way free agency is set up you simply MUST execute in the draft and commit to using that tool every year. The Knicks havent used it in a decade and its killed them far more than Houston's contract.

If the Knicks had a pipeline you wouldnt have lost seasons because of McDyess's injury, Houston's injury or other circumstances. You would have had young guys that could have stepped in and gotten starters minutes. Maybe they suck. maybe they blossum into great players, but the upside is there. Everything the Knicks do only has downside.

Like I said hopefully that changes and we really add a solid pipeline with this draft.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
diderotn
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6/9/2005  9:17 AM
I wonder how many fishmike we have on this forum??? Sometimes you sound like a reasonable fan and sometimes you sound like a crazy one...Example, what you have just written is very reasonable, and I agree with it a 100%...
The true Knickabocker..........
fishmike
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6/9/2005  9:19 AM
Posted by diderotn:

Isiah made some brilliant moves that folks that can't think from beyound 6" are currently criticizing....We have a chance to drastically reduce our cap in a couple of years...By then there are a lot of players, i.e., Lebron, Carmelo, even Wayde that will be available. Last season would have been ideal if we were able to get under the cap, but that wasn't the case....However, within the next 2 years, we will be a much more attractive franchise with Houston, TT, Penny, Mo T off of our cap...
all guys mr. brilliant brought in by the way. Superstar players like that dont switch teams. It happens about once every 10 years and twice with Shaq. Franchise player really dont switch teams, and when they do its for other franchise players.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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6/9/2005  9:24 AM
Posted by diderotn:

I wonder how many fishmike we have on this forum??? Sometimes you sound like a reasonable fan and sometimes you sound like a crazy one...Example, what you have just written is very reasonable, and I agree with it a 100%...
Just so I get the criteria right:
Agree with dido = very reasonable
Disagree with dido = crazy

I think most would agree that right or wrong I'm pretty consistant in my views. I want
a) a plan
b) a style of play
c) to execute in the draft
d) a,b and c are all really the same anyway.

When Isiah makes moves that dont make sense with things HE says I blast him. He's added a boat load of veteran talent with huge contracts and we are winning less games. Thats a bad job. I dont hate him or bask him just because, but he's overpaid in every trade he's made. His only brilliant move has been Ariza, and lets see him get resigned before we get too excited. Everything else has been utterly average or lame.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
diderotn
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6/9/2005  9:32 AM
Fish, what I criticize about you is the fact that you all want things to be turned around immediately...You all have forgotten that we: 1 don't have a front court, and 2 don't have a coach that has a system...Isiah will resolve those issues, but we have to grant him time to correct what is wrong...It takes time to acquire good frontcourt players, and it also take time to acquire a great coach...let's see how he does in this draft first, because that to me is the biggest of our problems...
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by diderotn:

I wonder how many fishmike we have on this forum??? Sometimes you sound like a reasonable fan and sometimes you sound like a crazy one...Example, what you have just written is very reasonable, and I agree with it a 100%...
Just so I get the criteria right:
Agree with dido = very reasonable
Disagree with dido = crazy

I think most would agree that right or wrong I'm pretty consistant in my views. I want
a) a plan
b) a style of play
c) to execute in the draft
d) a,b and c are all really the same anyway.

When Isiah makes moves that dont make sense with things HE says I blast him. He's added a boat load of veteran talent with huge contracts and we are winning less games. Thats a bad job. I dont hate him or bask him just because, but he's overpaid in every trade he's made. His only brilliant move has been Ariza, and lets see him get resigned before we get too excited. Everything else has been utterly average or lame.
The true Knickabocker..........
codeunknown
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6/9/2005  9:36 AM
Nalod is right that the Knick philosophy is itself the flaw, not the pawns who inevitably execute it. But, I would add that the philosophy is flawed in many respects, not just with the lack of commitment to rebuild. My gripe is that our recent GMs suffer from tunnel-vision. It seems that after every blunder, there is a reactionary counter-revolution that's just as ridiculous. Layden stockpiled stiff run-of-the-mill veterans, Isiah accumulates athletic players without game savvy or, for that matter, a semblance of motivation.

The only correct way to rebuild is through management versatility. There is no imposition that the draft necessarily be used or that taking on bad contracts is a must. There is no single type of player that fills all 5 positions; there are multiple roles on the basketball floor. The idea is to build a predictive model and formulate a plan that takes advantages of these opportunities.

So, if cap space was important to us, you don't take back Malik Rose. If developing Sweetney is important, you don't trade for Mo Taylor, considering he's a back-up along with Rose and JYD. If you are planning on selling TT or Penny, which players are you targeting? Are those players better than those you might acquire through free agency by simply letting TT and Penny expire? For each move, you've got to consider the advantages of the flip-side. And, most importantly, those acquisitions have to be timed to give yourself a significant window of opportunity to make a title run. To be honest, I'm not sure whether Isiah knows what he's doing. But, I will say that his last 2 moves sucked and he seems to be drifting to No-man's land, without a plan or the good sense to strip an already wrecked liner.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
tkf
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6/9/2005  9:39 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Good GMs and teams make good moves. Bad ones make bad moves. Having Webber's massive contract didnt stop the Kings from getting Brad Miller. Having Eddie Jone's massive contract didnt stop the Heat from drafting Wade, Butler, Haslem and trading for Shaq. Every good GM and team makes mistakes. The good ones stick to a plan and dont let those mistakes run their franchise. The bottom line is because of the way free agency is set up you simply MUST execute in the draft and commit to using that tool every year. The Knicks havent used it in a decade and its killed them far more than Houston's contract.

If the Knicks had a pipeline you wouldnt have lost seasons because of McDyess's injury, Houston's injury or other circumstances. You would have had young guys that could have stepped in and gotten starters minutes. Maybe they suck. maybe they blossum into great players, but the upside is there. Everything the Knicks do only has downside.

Like I said hopefully that changes and we really add a solid pipeline with this draft.

good post. And this is why,I din't like the dice trade, I can see what layden was trying to do, I mean after all Dice was only 28 and had he been able to return to the dice of old, the knicks would of had a franchise player in his prime. The problem is that risk like that, drain your pipe line of talent, and when it doesn't work out, you get killed talent wise, not really financially because dice was a expiring deal, but talent wise, we lost camby and nene, a pretty nice front line if you ask me... I guess the key is to stockpile young talent, you can never have too much talent, if anything you can trade them for high picks or pieces you need to compete, and you are not forced to sign older overpaid players, such as we have..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
firefly
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6/9/2005  9:44 AM
The point i was trying to make was not made to try to blame anyone specifically. Isiah came into a situation where most of the teams cap room was taken up by an injured and inavailable player. That meant that, by definition a huge portion of the team salary that could have been productive, whether it was being spent on players, or used in trades, was being taken up by something that had no value at all. Thats a pretty huge mountain to climb, and people need to appreciate the constrains that the administration of this club have to fight against. They have much less wiggle room than other teams, because they have been partialy disabled by Houston useless and unproductive contract.

Thats not blaming Houston, who didnt want to be injured, and shouldnt be held responsible for his contract. Its not blaming Layden, who assumed that the money being tied up in the contract would at least produce on the court. Its not even blaming Dolan, for the same reasons as Layden. Its simply a major restraining factor on the team, and you have to keep that in mind when you expect the GM to perform miracles with one hand tied behind his back.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
Bonn1997
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6/9/2005  9:51 AM
Fish, what I criticize about you is the fact that you all want things to be turned around immediately
I agree with that part. He came out declaring Isiah a "disaster" after two half seasons.
diderotn
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6/9/2005  9:55 AM
That is what I am talking about...Very reasonable..
Posted by firefly:

The point i was trying to make was not made to try to blame anyone specifically. Isiah came into a situation where most of the teams cap room was taken up by an injured and inavailable player. That meant that, by definition a huge portion of the team salary that could have been productive, whether it was being spent on players, or used in trades, was being taken up by something that had no value at all. Thats a pretty huge mountain to climb, and people need to appreciate the constrains that the administration of this club have to fight against. They have much less wiggle room than other teams, because they have been partialy disabled by Houston useless and unproductive contract.

Thats not blaming Houston, who didnt want to be injured, and shouldnt be held responsible for his contract. Its not blaming Layden, who assumed that the money being tied up in the contract would at least produce on the court. Its not even blaming Dolan, for the same reasons as Layden. Its simply a major restraining factor on the team, and you have to keep that in mind when you expect the GM to perform miracles with one hand tied behind his back.
The true Knickabocker..........
Nalod
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6/9/2005  10:01 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Fish, what I criticize about you is the fact that you all want things to be turned around immediately
I agree with that part. He came out declaring Isiah a "disaster" after two half seasons.

Damm, here we all were having a real intelectual conversation with all different but viable points of view, and you come along and dig up a snit. What a kill joy you can be, you get called a metrosextual and accused of having a mandingo complex and you say nothing, but in the deep recesses of your mind you remember some ones comment about Isiah and wish to form an "wrestlers mentality" allience with it?

your a funny duck!
Pharzeone
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6/9/2005  10:06 AM
Posted by fishmike:

we wouldnt be under the cap without Houston, we would still have $63mm in contracts in Rose, Taylor, KT, Crawford, Marbury, Shandon Anderson and Jerome Williams.

Right now the one who's crippling the franchise is Isiah. He also is the guy that can save it, so I hope he does the latter. Allan Houston has very little bearing on the cap. If cap space was a goal (and it could have been) Isiah killed it by adding some of the guys he did.

None of that matters. Ive been saying for awhile what the Knicks need above all else is to execute in the draft. That and only target players with some upside when it comes to trades. No more Mo Taylors
Fish, a man making more than anybody else on the team and not playing is crippling the franchise in a salary cap system. To poo poo Houston role in the problem is troubling. I mean no one is to blame here but the system. To pay consideration when one party is no longer able to satisfy the agreement is so anti-contract law it is crazy but this is where the fairytale land of CBAs come in. BTW, Houston had zero trade value before the injury as well. His contract was so out of portion to his abilities and status as a player. Personally I see no difference in Houston stance to the Knicks, then Mo Vaughn stance with the Mets, or Jason Giambi stance with the Yankees. You can clear that whole roster and you still begin the season with a negative $20 million balance with zero return on your investment. Nothing to poo poo at.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Nalod
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6/9/2005  10:06 AM
Posted by codeunknown:

Nalod is right that the Knick philosophy is itself the flaw, not the pawns who inevitably execute it. But, I would add that the philosophy is flawed in many respects, not just with the lack of commitment to rebuild. My gripe is that our recent GMs suffer from tunnel-vision. It seems that after every blunder, there is a reactionary counter-revolution that's just as ridiculous. Layden stockpiled stiff run-of-the-mill veterans, Isiah accumulates athletic players without game savvy or, for that matter, a semblance of motivation.

The only correct way to rebuild is through management versatility. There is no imposition that the draft necessarily be used or that taking on bad contracts is a must. There is no single type of player that fills all 5 positions; there are multiple roles on the basketball floor. The idea is to build a predictive model and formulate a plan that takes advantages of these opportunities.

So, if cap space was important to us, you don't take back Malik Rose. If developing Sweetney is important, you don't trade for Mo Taylor, considering he's a back-up along with Rose and JYD. If you are planning on selling TT or Penny, which players are you targeting? Are those players better than those you might acquire through free agency by simply letting TT and Penny expire? For each move, you've got to consider the advantages of the flip-side. And, most importantly, those acquisitions have to be timed to give yourself a significant window of opportunity to make a title run. To be honest, I'm not sure whether Isiah knows what he's doing. But, I will say that his last 2 moves sucked and he seems to be drifting to No-man's land, without a plan or the good sense to strip an already wrecked liner.

Its funny, BOth Isiah and Layden both had bad situations fall on them from the start.

Layden overpaid for high character guys whom appeared to be rising talents from good teams.

Isiah obtained overpaid low character/or underachievers on bad teams.

Result, Laydens teams played over their heads as a unit for Don Chaney.

Isiahs team played true: underacheived!

I remain Hopeful we are on a better course then in previous years and continue to get younger, more athletic, but smarter too!
djsunyc
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6/9/2005  10:06 AM
the problem here is not only the results so far of the past 1.5 years BUT the uncertainty about what the future holds.

since there is no plan that is tangible, we're stuck wondering if it's the same ol' same ol' or something new.

so far, it's the same piece of sh t ride with a new coat of paint.

i could've easily fired isiah for simply not shutting down marbury in april, and giving ariza 30 mins and butler 15-20. that's downright dispicable - there's no defending it.

but we're stuck in this state of limbo and we just gotta hope...
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