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fishmike
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6/1/2005  10:15 AM
Lets face it... We are probably going to start the season with a line up very similar to last years. I do expect Houston to be ready in some capacity and I expect him to start. For how long? Thats where my expectations lower considerably. My gut feeling is he comes into camp in great shape and ready to go, but breaks down as the year progresses and finally retires with league consent. Regardless its going to be a primarily veteran team.

So please, for the love of god lets do due diligence on this draft and really target high ceiling players. Guys that we may have to wait on but really have star potential. If that means Splitter at 8 but he doesn't come over for a year than fine. If that means Bynum at 8 but he's 2-3 years away than fine. We have a 2 year sitting period anyway. Houston, JYD, Mo T, Shandon.. their contracts are all on the books for 2 more years, Rose, Crawford, KT and Marbury are here longer.

Based on the kinds of trades Isiah likes to make I think we are what we are.... so lets really build a pipeline. There is some potential franchise talent around pick 8 and some very solid talent late in the first round at pick 30 and in the 19-24 range if we could get another pick.

I saw screw team needs... give me the most high ceiling guys out there. If that means Lois Williams, Blatche, Webster, then fine. We have waited this long... a little longer wont kill us.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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Knick2001
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6/1/2005  10:19 AM
I totally agree with what you're saying, the question is does Isiah succumb to pressure from Dolan to draft for immediate help. I hope not, but the Knicks history of late says otherwise.
Allanfan20
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6/1/2005  10:29 AM
I agree. The next couple of years don't even matter to me, b/c we are prolly gonna stink anyway unless absolutely everything goes right, which it prolly wont. We need to build for 2 or 3 years down the road, for when Crawford could potentially start his prime and when Ariza will start to come around. If this means planning on moving Craw to the point, drafting Webster this year, (And getting another pick) and getting a project of a big man, then I am fine with that. B/c that will give us a really nice core for the future. We might very well have to trade Marbury to balance out the team, and I really don't like Crawford that much, at shooting guard.

But if we make a short sighted move like draft Warrick with the 8th pick, then that's not good. I mean, I like that guy, but it seems like he doesn't even have a very high ceiling. Like someone else said, we need to shoot for the moon and go for the gold.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
tkf
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6/1/2005  11:25 AM
I agree fish, but I would like to build a tall athletic front line, I would like to add Splitter and Blatche, two guys who are tall, long and can move, then let ariza play the SF, that would give us a young , long frontline for the future, I just can't help but admire Detroits front line, Both wallace, and prince just give opposing teams hell. They do it with defense, height, quickness and offensive efficiency, those guys really make Billups and Rips jobs a lot easier, that is why I want those two guys, and if we can grab a guy like Louis williams, why not, he is another explosive combo player that can play a little of both guard positions, tremendous talent...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
SKY
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6/1/2005  11:40 AM
YES! I agree with you 100%.

We need to build from bottom up. No more patch work, short-cuts, wasting picks for old vets.

Build a team based on a vision and principle, and draft accordingly!! We don't need the likes of Tim Thomases & Crawfords (though I admit he has his upside). We need players who are tough, long, and athletic with superior defensive skills and good character/work ethic.

I like Splitter, Granger, and maybe Bynum (if he's for real - we'll see) at 8. Man, this draft better bring us some real good pieces!
fishmike
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6/1/2005  12:02 PM
Posted by tkf:

I agree fish, but I would like to build a tall athletic front line, I would like to add Splitter and Blatche, two guys who are tall, long and can move, then let ariza play the SF, that would give us a young , long frontline for the future, I just can't help but admire Detroits front line, Both wallace, and prince just give opposing teams hell. They do it with defense, height, quickness and offensive efficiency, those guys really make Billups and Rips jobs a lot easier, that is why I want those two guys, and if we can grab a guy like Louis williams, why not, he is another explosive combo player that can play a little of both guard positions, tremendous talent...
thats the thing... if we can somehow add another pick like the Grizz pick its very concievable we come away with some combo of Splitter, Petro, Bynum, Blatche, Randolph Morris or Taft. I think most all of them will be around at 8 and 1 or 2 around at say 19. Its also possible none will be ready to play for a couple years but thats fine with me as I mentioned.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Masterplan
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6/1/2005  12:04 PM
i agree (isn't it nice to see us all getting along?), but i would go so far as to say the next few years won't necessarily be so terrible. i do think this year's roster had a shot at the playoffs until the massive losing streak, some minor improvements could mean we're in the postseason even discounting any contributions from long-term draft choices. if we nab this year's amare who comes out of nowhere to be a stud earlier than expected, so much the better, it will speed up the process a few seasons. we're due for a break (unless ariza counts, in that case we're not due for another break for a few years).

do you consider danny granger to be a high ceiling player? my sense is he will contribute right away and only get marginally better, plus the chance he has injury issues like in college and i'm not sure he fits this model. i don't know much about him though, am i wrong?
Nalod
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6/1/2005  12:09 PM
(In yoda speak)

Asking for a rebuild we are?

A future we build for?

Over we start, blowing it up we do?

Think this I don't

A new Hope?
crzymdups
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6/1/2005  12:24 PM
I think Zeke plans to make major plans. Hopefully they are aimed at rebuilding through the draft mainly, but I would be shocked if the starting lineup was anything near the same next year. I think Tim Thomas is gone from the SL, possibly from the team. And I think Sweetney will come off the bench. I think Kurt MAY start, if he's here, which I doubt.
¿ △ ?
Pharzeone
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6/1/2005  12:26 PM
I am trying to find an article that I came across earlier this week that the Bobcats are very interested in trying to acquire Ariza and KT for probably the 13th pick and Ely and some other Bobcat throwins to make the deal work. Surprisely, Ariza was the key to the deal and not KT. Per the article, Bickerstaff was high on him and would like to start him immediately. Anyone else come across this? I pick up the link on a Bobcat forum (don't ask).
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
tkf
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6/1/2005  12:44 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

I am trying to find an article that I came across earlier this week that the Bobcats are very interested in trying to acquire Ariza and KT for probably the 13th pick and Ely and some other Bobcat throwins to make the deal work. Surprisely, Ariza was the key to the deal and not KT. Per the article, Bickerstaff was high on him and would like to start him immediately. Anyone else come across this? I pick up the link on a Bobcat forum (don't ask).

I would not do that trade, I don't think the talent at 13 will be better than ariza.... I think we can get that 19 pick from the grizz and still get the players we want..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
fishmike
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6/1/2005  12:54 PM
to be honest I'm not sure I do that. I have zero interest in Ely. So Ariza for the #13 straight up? I can see why Cha would do it... Ariza will be a lot cheaper than the #13 pick and they do care about that.

Now Ariza has a long way to go, and someone like Granger or Warrick are way ahead of him, but I do view Ariza as a high ceiling player. I would be more comfortable with trading a #1 next year or combining that with cash and the Spurs pick next year to get #12. Say #30, Spurs 2006 #1 and $2mm for pick #12.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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6/1/2005  1:26 PM
Posted by fishmike:

to be honest I'm not sure I do that. I have zero interest in Ely. So Ariza for the #13 straight up? I can see why Cha would do it... Ariza will be a lot cheaper than the #13 pick and they do care about that.

Now Ariza has a long way to go, and someone like Granger or Warrick are way ahead of him, but I do view Ariza as a high ceiling player. I would be more comfortable with trading a #1 next year or combining that with cash and the Spurs pick next year to get #12. Say #30, Spurs 2006 #1 and $2mm for pick #12.

I agree, I would get them to bite on less, I mean no way do we make that trade.. IT knows what he has in ariza, he is no fool, and if the bobcats want ariza then neither are they fools, they know talent, and I am glad ariza is wanted, I say IT needs to lock that kid up, trade for the grizz pick, draft blatch and splitter and give them some burn this year, let them play some minutes off the bench, who knows what can happen, I mean the knicks are a team right now that needs to take that chance.. It is a easy decision really..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Vmart
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6/1/2005  5:52 PM
I have serious doubts that the Knicks can develope even a high ceiling player into a superstar. Its just not in this franchise to give a young player a chance to become someone. But the High ceiling player will become nice role players all thanks to the Knicks.

If the Knicks are going to lose than lose with the young players getting majority of the minutes that is the only way these players become stars is with miuntes. The Knicks are a laughig stock of the NBA why because they have vets that are backups and they get treated and paid like their sheit don't stink.

Its easy for use to say ok we draft 3 players and lets some of them stay in Europe and develop well you guys are wrong about that because the Knicks have a waiting period for young to get decent PT and thats 2-3 years if they are lucky. You think the ones that stay in Europe are going to get PT once they come on the Knicks I doubt it. One thing I know about the players in the draft that is they are dreading to be drafted by the KNicks. They want no part of the KNicks. If they can skip 8 and 30 they would all breathe a sigh of relief because they know the Knicks do not develope young superstar players. You have to go back 20 years back to find a superstar or a very good player the Knicks made.

I love the draft and everything about it; but to be honest with all my NYK fans I really deep down feel sorry for a NYK first round draft choice. He can basically take the tag superstar, great player, good player out of the mix and call himself the next decent role player if at that.
Pharzeone
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6/1/2005  6:06 PM
Posted by Vmart:

I have serious doubts that the Knicks can develope even a high ceiling player into a superstar. Its just not in this franchise to give a young player a chance to become someone. But the High ceiling player will become nice role players all thanks to the Knicks.

If the Knicks are going to lose than lose with the young players getting majority of the minutes that is the only way these players become stars is with miuntes. The Knicks are a laughig stock of the NBA why because they have vets that are backups and they get treated and paid like their sheit don't stink.

Its easy for use to say ok we draft 3 players and lets some of them stay in Europe and develop well you guys are wrong about that because the Knicks have a waiting period for young to get decent PT and thats 2-3 years if they are lucky. You think the ones that stay in Europe are going to get PT once they come on the Knicks I doubt it. One thing I know about the players in the draft that is they are dreading to be drafted by the KNicks. They want no part of the KNicks. If they can skip 8 and 30 they would all breathe a sigh of relief because they know the Knicks do not develope young superstar players. You have to go back 20 years back to find a superstar or a very good player the Knicks made.

I love the draft and everything about it; but to be honest with all my NYK fans I really deep down feel sorry for a NYK first round draft choice. He can basically take the tag superstar, great player, good player out of the mix and call himself the next decent role player if at that.
To be fair Vmart is right. This organization has a dubious history with the draft. Either they can't draft or they won't play. This organization has had some pretty bad scouting personnel as far as I am concern. That is what bother me the most about Layden. He had the rep of a great talent evaluator but was scare to draft. I applaud Isiah for drafting Ariza but you are right what good is it when he gets little playing time. But to me that is a head coach thing. It is up to the head coach to get that guy the playing time. For whatever reason going back to days of Riley, and Van Gundy these guys hated rookies and didn't want to play them. Van Gundy came out and said he wouldn't play rookies which is why he clashed with John Wallace and Ernie Grunfeld.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
gunsnewing
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6/1/2005  6:09 PM
if we can somehow come out of this with Webster and Bynum we're golden!

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 06/01/2005 20:55:18]
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