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draft guys that go to school
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Ray15
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5/4/2005  1:14 AM
Especially with the depth of this years draft, I hope Isiah notices the trend of guys that go to school vs the guys that don't. Aside from the special high schoolers (Lebron, Dwight Howard, Kobe, TMac, KG, Amare, etc...) there have been so many high school flops. However, with the influx of high schoolers and foreigners so many great players fall in the draft.

If I'm Isiah, unless I see a desire, work ethic, and talent level in either Green or Webster that they may turn out to be the next Kobe or TMac, I'm drafting guys that went to school for a few years, played at a big time program under a great teacher of fundamentals, and most importantly guys that won.

This past draft guys like Ben Gordon (3), Emeka Okafor (2), Chris Duhon (mid second rounder), and Andre Iguodola (9) and even Tony Allen (25) all fit this mold.

The year before look at guys like Dwane Wade (5), Kirk Hinrich (7), TJ Ford (when he was healthy) (8th pick), Nick Collison (12), Josh Howard (30). Even guys like Kyle Korver(second rounder), Dahntay Jones(second rounder), and Luke Ridnour(14) are making solid compositions to their squads. Comapre all these guys to Travis Outlaw(23), Ndudi Ebi(26), Kendrick Perkins(27) and James Lang(second rounder).

The year before look at guys like Dan Dickau (28th pick), Juan Dixon (17), Caron Butler (10), and Tayshaun Prince (23) versus high schoolers like Qyntel Woods (21).

In the year before (2001) guys Kwame Brown(1), Ty Chandler(2), Eddy Curry(4), Desagnia Diop(8) were the high schoolers. Chandler is starting to come along but Dalembart(26), Tinsley(27), Richard Jefferson(12), Battier(6), Jason Richardson(5) all went to school.

Look at the guys that went to school that I mentioned -- they are all playing good ball because they are fundamentally sound, do the little things, and almost all play good defense. This is what college does for these kids -- I'm watching Collison play right now and he's killing the Kings. Look what Roy Williams was able to do with him and Hinrich. I would love either one of those guys. I would kill for Josh Howard or Tayshaun Prince to be our 3 -- they play awesome defense and do the little things.

With all this being said, Isiah better draft the guys that went to school, especially in the late first round and second round. If he goes with Green or Webster at 8, I won't be upset because they have star potential. But has a high schooler drafted late first round or second round ever panned out? I would love to stockpile second rounders in this draft and select a bunch of guys that stayed in school. At pick 8, I think Raymond Felton and Deron Williams are going to be unbelievable point guards in this league -- both are great defenders, won in school, and know how to lead a team. What about Julius Hodge at 30? Does he not remind you of Josh Howard? Grabbing a guy like Nate Robinson who is going to be a taller Earl Boykins in my opinion is such a steal in the second round. Daniel Ewing proved he can play the point, plays solid defense -- he sure looks like Juan Dixon to me.


[Edited by - ray15 on 05/04/2005 01:22:25]
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BigSm00th
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5/4/2005  2:14 AM
I agree 100% Ray. Guys with a pedigree of playing high level CBB should be placed above a guy with "attitude problems" like Gerald Green.

I know Green has star potential, but any time "attitude problems" or "mental lapses" are in a scouting report, stay away. What the hell is a mental lapse, how do you have them? How do you forget you're playing basketball and the situation, its mindboggling.

I'd take Daniel Ewing or Nate Robinson over Louis Williams in the 2nd round in a heartbeat.
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BRIGGS
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5/4/2005  11:32 AM
I don't agree with this.

last year you had
Dwight Howard
Josh Smith
JR Smith
Andris Biendrins
Shaun Livingston
Sebastian Telfair
Al Jefferson
Dorrell Wright[and he is no chump]
Robert Swift

I know Dorrell is great, because he was in the papers ehre in CT all the time, very highly thought of prospect, but i cant say I would take him with an 8 pick because he didnt play in the nBA yet.

BUt as of now, we ONLY WISH that this type of talent was available. How many people would guive up the 8 pick right now for ANY player on that list sans swift anf wright---ahh me:>)

If you go back, yes there are some busts, or guys who havent played to what they were thought of--kwame as example--yet again kwame is also 22.

No, I think it's quite obvious that prep to pros has been an unbelievable success for pro teams and the nBA.

Lets even take a guy like Travis outlaw--obviously this is a kid that needed maturing physically and mentally and rarely played--question would you give the 8 pick for him now? yep I would.
The % of hits with HS players has not only been very high, but look at NBA superstars, most are preps to pros.
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Bonn1997
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5/4/2005  11:36 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

I don't agree with this.

last year you had
Dwight Howard
Josh Smith
JR Smith
Andris Biendrins
Shaun Livingston
Sebastian Telfair
Al Jefferson
Dorrell Wright[and he is no chump]
Robert Swift

I know Dorrell is great, because he was in the papers ehre in CT all the time, very highly thought of prospect, but i cant say I would take him with an 8 pick because he didnt play in the nBA yet.

BUt as of now, we ONLY WISH that this type of talent was available. How many people would guive up the 8 pick right now for ANY player on that list sans swift anf wright---ahh me:>)

If you go back, yes there are some busts, or guys who havent played to what they were thought of--kwame as example--yet again kwame is also 22.

No, I think it's quite obvious that prep to pros has been an unbelievable success for pro teams and the nBA.

Lets even take a guy like Travis outlaw--obviously this is a kid that needed maturing physically and mentally and rarely played--question would you give the 8 pick for him now? yep I would.
The % of hits with HS players has not only been very high, but look at NBA superstars, most are preps to pros.
I agree with everything you said somehow.
simrud
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5/4/2005  1:06 PM
So could you even name 10 guys who came out of HS and were total busts?

This idea about HS kids being busts is all brainwashed propaganda of the NCAA who justs wants to make more money.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Bonn1997
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5/4/2005  1:17 PM
Posted by simrud:

So could you even name 10 guys who came out of HS and were total busts?

This idea about HS kids being busts is all brainwashed propaganda of the NCAA who justs wants to make more money.
How many HS kids have come out early and gone unnoticed because they thought they'd be drafted but weren't?
Ray15
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5/4/2005  2:23 PM
Posted by simrud:

So could you even name 10 guys who came out of HS and were total busts?

This idea about HS kids being busts is all brainwashed propaganda of the NCAA who justs wants to make more money.


Travis Outlaw
Ndudi Ebi
Kendrick Perkins
James Lang
Kwame Brown
Desagnia Diop
DeShawn Stevenson
Jon Bender
Leon Smith

Guys like Ty Chandler, Eddy Curry, D Miles aren't total busts but you have to be crazy to think they are worth a top 5 pick.
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Ray15
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5/4/2005  2:37 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

I don't agree with this.

last year you had
Dwight Howard
Josh Smith
JR Smith
Andris Biendrins
Shaun Livingston
Sebastian Telfair
Al Jefferson
Dorrell Wright[and he is no chump]
Robert Swift

I know Dorrell is great, because he was in the papers ehre in CT all the time, very highly thought of prospect, but i cant say I would take him with an 8 pick because he didnt play in the nBA yet.

BUt as of now, we ONLY WISH that this type of talent was available. How many people would guive up the 8 pick right now for ANY player on that list sans swift anf wright---ahh me:>)

If you go back, yes there are some busts, or guys who havent played to what they were thought of--kwame as example--yet again kwame is also 22.

No, I think it's quite obvious that prep to pros has been an unbelievable success for pro teams and the nBA.

Lets even take a guy like Travis outlaw--obviously this is a kid that needed maturing physically and mentally and rarely played--question would you give the 8 pick for him now? yep I would.
The % of hits with HS players has not only been very high, but look at NBA superstars, most are preps to pros.

You would trade the 8 pick for Outlaw who hasn't done anything since he's been in the league? In that respect would you trade the 8th pick for guys like Wade, Hinrich, B Gordon, Josh Howard, Tay Prince? I would rather all those guys and maybe even include Duhon and Boozer to that list over Outlaw.

Why is it that the best defensive players in the league, sans Kobe and Amare, have all gone to school? Lets compare superstars -- Wade vs TMac. Who would you want on your team? Wade does it on both ends of the court EVERY night, does all the little things, and it is clear that he has a burning desire to win. With TMac's athletic ability and length, he should be one of the best defenders in the league. However, it has just been recently where he started to apply that. If he went to school for a few years, he'd be a better all around player. Do you not think JR Smith would have been better suited going to school for even a year under Roy Williams to learn how to play defense?

On another note, aside Kobe who had Shaq, have high schoolers ever won anything? It's always the older, more experienced, guys that went to school who lead teams to the championship.

Also, aside from Dwight Howard, and the two Smiths nobody on that list, nobody has really done much aside show potential. Who knows how they'll turn out -- they may be superstars or they may end up being busts. Yeah, a bunch of high schoolers do end up being superstars but a bunch also end up doing nothing. My point is, especially in the late first round and second round, the guys that went to school have turned out so much better. To answer my own question the only late first rounder or second rounder to pan out coming out of high school to date has been Al Harrington and he was late first round.

Collison does all the little things for Seattle and I definitely think he's doing a better job so far than Swift.
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BRIGGS
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5/4/2005  3:03 PM
Posted by Ray15:
Posted by BRIGGS:

I don't agree with this.

last year you had
Dwight Howard
Josh Smith
JR Smith
Andris Biendrins
Shaun Livingston
Sebastian Telfair
Al Jefferson
Dorrell Wright[and he is no chump]
Robert Swift

I know Dorrell is great, because he was in the papers ehre in CT all the time, very highly thought of prospect, but i cant say I would take him with an 8 pick because he didnt play in the nBA yet.

BUt as of now, we ONLY WISH that this type of talent was available. How many people would guive up the 8 pick right now for ANY player on that list sans swift anf wright---ahh me:>)

If you go back, yes there are some busts, or guys who havent played to what they were thought of--kwame as example--yet again kwame is also 22.

No, I think it's quite obvious that prep to pros has been an unbelievable success for pro teams and the nBA.

Lets even take a guy like Travis outlaw--obviously this is a kid that needed maturing physically and mentally and rarely played--question would you give the 8 pick for him now? yep I would.
The % of hits with HS players has not only been very high, but look at NBA superstars, most are preps to pros.

You would trade the 8 pick for Outlaw who hasn't done anything since he's been in the league? In that respect would you trade the 8th pick for guys like Wade, Hinrich, B Gordon, Josh Howard, Tay Prince? I would rather all those guys and maybe even include Duhon and Boozer to that list over Outlaw.

Why is it that the best defensive players in the league, sans Kobe and Amare, have all gone to school? Lets compare superstars -- Wade vs TMac. Who would you want on your team? Wade does it on both ends of the court EVERY night, does all the little things, and it is clear that he has a burning desire to win. With TMac's athletic ability and length, he should be one of the best defenders in the league. However, it has just been recently where he started to apply that. If he went to school for a few years, he'd be a better all around player. Do you not think JR Smith would have been better suited going to school for even a year under Roy Williams to learn how to play defense?

On another note, aside Kobe who had Shaq, have high schoolers ever won anything? It's always the older, more experienced, guys that went to school who lead teams to the championship.

Also, aside from Dwight Howard, and the two Smiths nobody on that list, nobody has really done much aside show potential. Who knows how they'll turn out -- they may be superstars or they may end up being busts. Yeah, a bunch of high schoolers do end up being superstars but a bunch also end up doing nothing. My point is, especially in the late first round and second round, the guys that went to school have turned out so much better. To answer my own question the only late first rounder or second rounder to pan out coming out of high school to date has been Al Harrington and he was late first round.

Collison does all the little things for Seattle and I definitely think he's doing a better job so far than Swift.

Would I take Travis Outlaw+ pick 35 for 8? I would sure as heck consider it. He showed a lot of signs in the second half of the year. His upside is huge, as big and or possibly bigger than anyone we could pick at 8. He scored in double digits multiple times this year, thats proving something for sure. I mean did you watch him play?
RIP Crushalot😞
gunsnewing
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5/4/2005  3:05 PM
coming from a guy who likes darius miles..i don't know Briggs. You need to do more than just jump high to be good. How did Outlaw's shot progress throughout the season?
BRIGGS
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5/4/2005  3:09 PM
Posted by Ray15:
Posted by simrud:

So could you even name 10 guys who came out of HS and were total busts?

This idea about HS kids being busts is all brainwashed propaganda of the NCAA who justs wants to make more money.


Travis Outlaw
Ndudi Ebi
Kendrick Perkins
James Lang
Kwame Brown
Desagnia Diop
DeShawn Stevenson
Jon Bender
Leon Smith

Guys like Ty Chandler, Eddy Curry, D Miles aren't total busts but you have to be crazy to think they are worth a top 5 pick.


You are not making much sense dude.

let me give you a list

Kobe Bryant
Amare Stoudemire
Rashard Lewis
KG
Jermaine Oneal
Lebron James
Dwight Howard
Tracy Mcgrady

these are most of the stars of the nBA
RIP Crushalot😞
Ray15
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5/4/2005  3:57 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Ray15:
Posted by simrud:

So could you even name 10 guys who came out of HS and were total busts?

This idea about HS kids being busts is all brainwashed propaganda of the NCAA who justs wants to make more money.


Travis Outlaw
Ndudi Ebi
Kendrick Perkins
James Lang
Kwame Brown
Desagnia Diop
DeShawn Stevenson
Jon Bender
Leon Smith

Guys like Ty Chandler, Eddy Curry, D Miles aren't total busts but you have to be crazy to think they are worth a top 5 pick.


You are not making much sense dude.

let me give you a list

Kobe Bryant
Amare Stoudemire
Rashard Lewis
KG
Jermaine Oneal
Lebron James
Dwight Howard
Tracy Mcgrady

these are most of the stars of the nBA

I could name a ton of superstars that went to college, play great defense, and actually WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS but what's the point. Look none of those guys aside from Kobe have won anything and Shaq had a pretty say in that.

How am I not making much sense? The question posed was could I name 10 high schoolers that were busts not if I could name superstars. I named a bunch and a few more that haven't panned out to what they should be.

The whole point of this thread was to point out that especially in the late first round and second round, we will be much better suited going with a guy that went to college, led his team, and won. I must not be making much sense if you can't follow this because it's pretty clear in my eyes that I would rather have Josh Howard, Chris Duhon, Carlos Boozer as opposed to all the high school trash that gets picked in the late first round/second round (James Lang, Kendrick Perkins, Ndudi Ebi).

If you want to include superstars let me ask you who would you rather have Wade or TMac? Because to me, thats the perfect example of what a player gains by going to school.
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Killa4luv
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5/4/2005  4:07 PM
Posted by Ray15:
Posted by simrud:

So could you even name 10 guys who came out of HS and were total busts?

This idea about HS kids being busts is all brainwashed propaganda of the NCAA who justs wants to make more money.


Travis Outlaw
Ndudi Ebi
Kendrick Perkins
James Lang
Kwame Brown
Desagnia Diop
DeShawn Stevenson
Jon Bender
Leon Smith

Guys like Ty Chandler, Eddy Curry, D Miles aren't total busts but you have to be crazy to think they are worth a top 5 pick.
Ray, I am of the thinking that if you are 22-23 years old, you cannot be considered a bust.
What do you mean by bust?
1. a player who is totally garbage and shouldnt be in the league
or
2. a player who shouldn't have been picked as high as they were.


if its 1, that cuts your list in half.
if its 2, high schoolers don't have a monopoly on that. Players don't decide where their picked. K mart is a bust too then, in spite of him being a really good player.
Ray15
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5/4/2005  4:18 PM
The point of this thread has gotten way off track. Regardless of your definition of bust, I don't think anybody would disagree that they would rather have guys like Richard Jefferson, Wade, Duhon, Boozer, Hinrich, Josh Howard as opposed to Ebi, Perkins, Lang, Kwame Brown, etc... To me it seems as all the great two way players in the game today are the ones that have gone to school and learned under a great coach for a few years.

You can name the superstars just as I can name superstars that went to college. High schoolers may have more super star potential, I'll give you that, and that's because the most talented players are the ones that make the jump. However, especially in the late first round/second round, you have got to be crazy to select a high schooler over a guy that went to school for a few years, won, and led his team. That was my point of this thread. Draft guys like Nate Robinson, Julius Hodge, Ray Felton, Deron Williams, Daniel Ewing. Guys that play at both ends, have a desire to compete, and have already proven they can lead and win.
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Nalod
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5/4/2005  4:37 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Ray15:
Posted by simrud:

So could you even name 10 guys who came out of HS and were total busts?

This idea about HS kids being busts is all brainwashed propaganda of the NCAA who justs wants to make more money.

Briggy,

Those guys were destined for stardom anyway. Maybe the bust list would be shorter if they went to school.

Maybe Kobe would be a better player because he would be more social human being. He might have been able to integreate with Shaq and others. Maybe T-mack learns to play better at both ends. Maybe some of the real busts would have busted earlier. If so, better for NBA, fans, better investment to make on other players.

Lebron would still be lebron, etc etc, but guys like Kwame, Leon, jackie, would all been better at school, or lets say would have had a better progress.

Its all hypothetical. Maybe if you just take edumakated guys from good programs we can rebuild faster than higher risk younger players.

Not a bad theory. There are many ways to acomplish success!


Travis Outlaw
Ndudi Ebi
Kendrick Perkins
James Lang
Kwame Brown
Desagnia Diop
DeShawn Stevenson
Jon Bender
Leon Smith

Guys like Ty Chandler, Eddy Curry, D Miles aren't total busts but you have to be crazy to think they are worth a top 5 pick.


You are not making much sense dude.

let me give you a list

Kobe Bryant
Amare Stoudemire
Rashard Lewis
KG
Jermaine Oneal
Lebron James
Dwight Howard
Tracy Mcgrady

these are most of the stars of the nBA
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