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example of a player id be willing to give pick 8 up for
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BRIGGS
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4/26/2005  1:36 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by BRIGGS:

here ya go, Darko with minutes

30 min 7-11 16 points 5 rebounds 2 asists 3 blocks and he is 19. How many 19 year olds in the WORLD could put up those numbers in any nBA game. Not many

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3705

BRIGGS, that's precisely why they won't be interested in any #8 pick for him...do you know how much flack Dumars is taking for picking him over taking Dwayne Wade & Carmelo Anthony? he's going to want to give this kid a shot to prove him right before he gives up & dumps him for another pick...you have the same situation of having to play behind veterans regardless if they keep Darko or trade him for that #8 pick & take someone else.

this is the whole agent gig. Isiah talks to Darko's agent and says hes willing to start him--darkos agent puts tremendous pressure on Pistons to either start him or trade him, enough is enough--how many times in the past 3 times has this worked.. lets see tracy, vince, mourning, baron etc..

we could conceivably trade them

Kurt Thomas + pick 8 for
Darko Arroyo and pick 26
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gunsnewing
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4/26/2005  1:37 PM
Petro is not a lottery pick if you know what that means let alone a pick before #8
diderotn
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4/26/2005  1:38 PM
will not happen, because Dumars is very high on this dude.
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nyk4ever
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4/26/2005  1:43 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:


difference is we've seen high school players have great success in the NBA. What foreign Center other than Yao Ming who was a clear cut phenom at 7'5 has become a superstar?

Don't give me Dirk, he's a superstar and 7ft but not a center just like every Foreign player other than Yao and arguably Nene who was clearly a best and you knew his body would translate.

Arvyds Sabonis and Rik Smits were pretty darn good players, especially Sabonis when he first came into the NBA.
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diderotn
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4/26/2005  1:47 PM
I think that my man is very prejudice toward foreign big men. The cat from Cleveland is a european also. Olajowon was a foreigner, Smith from Indy, and many others....

Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:


difference is we've seen high school players have great success in the NBA. What foreign Center other than Yao Ming who was a clear cut phenom at 7'5 has become a superstar?

Don't give me Dirk, he's a superstar and 7ft but not a center just like every Foreign player other than Yao and arguably Nene who was clearly a best and you knew his body would translate.

Arvyds Sabonis and Rik Smits were pretty darn good players, especially Sabonis when he first came into the NBA.
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Pharzeone
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4/26/2005  1:47 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:


difference is we've seen high school players have great success in the NBA. What foreign Center other than Yao Ming who was a clear cut phenom at 7'5 has become a superstar?

Don't give me Dirk, he's a superstar and 7ft but not a center just like every Foreign player other than Yao and arguably Nene who was clearly a best and you knew his body would translate.

Arvyds Sabonis and Rik Smits were pretty darn good players, especially Sabonis when he first came into the NBA.
good points but Smits don't count. He had collegiate experience like Bogut.
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diderotn
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4/26/2005  1:52 PM
Nocionni is a SF from Argentina, and look at how he has killed our bigs. We can't afford to overlook the foreign players, because there has been a huge revolution in their games
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Bonn1997
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4/26/2005  2:08 PM
I wouldn't be against this deal, but we've seen so little of Darko. We have no way of evaluating him. I've heard he doesn't like to play defense and doesn't play hard when he gets rare opportunities to play. I'd rather get a young established star as discussed in other threads if we're going to trade the pick, but if those trades didn't work out, I would probably do this one.
Killa4luv
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4/26/2005  3:57 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:


difference is we've seen high school players have great success in the NBA. What foreign Center other than Yao Ming who was a clear cut phenom at 7'5 has become a superstar?

Don't give me Dirk, he's a superstar and 7ft but not a center just like every Foreign player other than Yao and arguably Nene who was clearly a best and you knew his body would translate.

Arvyds Sabonis and Rik Smits were pretty darn good players, especially Sabonis when he first came into the NBA.
good points but Smits don't count. He had collegiate experience like Bogut.
Sabonis doesn't count either he was a dominant player in Europe or wherever he was from. He was one of the best players to ever play the game in the league he was playing in. The chances of him being a bust were slim to none.
Killa4luv
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4/26/2005  4:17 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I wouldn't be against this deal, but we've seen so little of Darko. We have no way of evaluating him. I've heard he doesn't like to play defense and doesn't play hard when he gets rare opportunities to play. I'd rather get a young established star as discussed in other threads if we're going to trade the pick, but if those trades didn't work out, I would probably do this one.
I don't want darko. I'd rather take Kwame Brown who has at least shown flashes against good teams and good players. I'd definitely not give up a lotto pick for Darko. He isn't the big defensive dude we need in the middle. I mean I'd take him, but no way for our lotto.

BTW just to put those Darko 30 minute stats into perspective
1. It was in a blowout against thee worst team in the league, with Darko playing on the arguably thee best team.
2. It was right at the end of the season.
3. He put those numbers up against the oh-so talented frontcourt of the Atlanta Hawks.
4. I saw the highlights on NBATV where they showed about 4 or 5 baskets he made. They were all jumpshots and one dunk that Ben Wallace handed to him under the basket with no one around.
5. Only 1 of those jumpshots had someone near him.
6. he had 5 rebounds in 30 minutes.
7. The very next game against the bobcats which detroit lost, he had 9 points shooting 2-8 with 3 rebounds in 30 minutes.
8. The guy he was guarding, Emaka, had 15 and 19 rebounds.
9. I am not saying he is a bust, or wont be good, I am just saying I don't think that game showed anything of substance.



[Edited by - Killa4luv on 04/26/2005 16:17:51]
Pharzeone
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4/26/2005  5:15 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by Bonn1997:

I wouldn't be against this deal, but we've seen so little of Darko. We have no way of evaluating him. I've heard he doesn't like to play defense and doesn't play hard when he gets rare opportunities to play. I'd rather get a young established star as discussed in other threads if we're going to trade the pick, but if those trades didn't work out, I would probably do this one.
I don't want darko. I'd rather take Kwame Brown who has at least shown flashes against good teams and good players. I'd definitely not give up a lotto pick for Darko. He isn't the big defensive dude we need in the middle. I mean I'd take him, but no way for our lotto.

BTW just to put those Darko 30 minute stats into perspective
1. It was in a blowout against thee worst team in the league, with Darko playing on the arguably thee best team.
2. It was right at the end of the season.
3. He put those numbers up against the oh-so talented frontcourt of the Atlanta Hawks.
4. I saw the highlights on NBATV where they showed about 4 or 5 baskets he made. They were all jumpshots and one dunk that Ben Wallace handed to him under the basket with no one around.
5. Only 1 of those jumpshots had someone near him.
6. he had 5 rebounds in 30 minutes.
7. The very next game against the bobcats which detroit lost, he had 9 points shooting 2-8 with 3 rebounds in 30 minutes.
8. The guy he was guarding, Emaka, had 15 and 19 rebounds.
9. I am not saying he is a bust, or wont be good, I am just saying I don't think that game showed anything of substance.



[Edited by - Killa4luv on 04/26/2005 16:17:51]
Well, you are pretty close to saying it...
I agree, Darko is a bust compared to where he was selected, who was selected behind him how much he is producing. Do you realize that he now has to be a hell of alot better than Carmelo, and Wade. Right now, Sweetney is making that pick look bad. From the hype, from context he has to be better than those guys and even better than Lebron, really (remember Larry Brown on the Mike and the Mad Dog saying that this guy will be the best player in the draft in 3 to 4 years). To me that's a Pistons scouting problem. Don't see why the Knicks should help them out. The more I think about it, #8 is extremely too high for him, since his contract is up after 2 years. No thanks.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
tomverve
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4/26/2005  5:34 PM
I never understood the excessive criticism of Darko. The kid is 19 years old! There's no such thing as a 19 year old bust, period. Get back to me when he's 25, then we can talk.
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Killa4luv
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4/26/2005  7:02 PM
Posted by tomverve:

I never understood the excessive criticism of Darko. The kid is 19 years old! There's no such thing as a 19 year old bust, period. Get back to me when he's 25, then we can talk.
I agree 19 is too young to be a bust. Its not his fault he was picked there. He may end up being a good player, but I can't see it from here. Time will tell.
Bonn1997
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4/26/2005  8:57 PM
Posted by tomverve:

I never understood the excessive criticism of Darko. The kid is 19 years old! There's no such thing as a 19 year old bust, period. Get back to me when he's 25, then we can talk.
He may not be a bust, but that doesn't mean it's smart to give up our lottery pick for him. He's a project that's probably not worth an early or mid lottery pick for the reasons Killa and others have given.
gunsnewing
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4/26/2005  11:28 PM
Posted by diderotn:

I think that my man is very prejudice toward foreign big men. The cat from Cleveland is a european also. Olajowon was a foreigner, Smith from Indy, and many others....

Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:


difference is we've seen high school players have great success in the NBA. What foreign Center other than Yao Ming who was a clear cut phenom at 7'5 has become a superstar?

Don't give me Dirk, he's a superstar and 7ft but not a center just like every Foreign player other than Yao and arguably Nene who was clearly a best and you knew his body would translate.

Arvyds Sabonis and Rik Smits were pretty darn good players, especially Sabonis when he first came into the NBA.

difference is these guys like Z weren't lottery picks. Why would we waste a lottery pick on a potential Euro bust when we can take one later in the draft and let him develop?
tomverve
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4/26/2005  11:40 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

He's a project that's probably not worth an early or mid lottery pick for the reasons Killa and others have given.

That remains to be seen, kemosabe. If he explodes and becomes a 20/10 guy, or maybe even more of a 25/8 guy, then what would you say? It's entirely within the realm of possibility. What we've seen and know of Darko right now is next to nothing. Pretty pointless to try to say right now that he's already a bust, or should have been taken much lower, etc. Judgments like that are empty words right now. There is no rational basis for firm evaluations here until we wait it out a few more years and see what happens.
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Bonn1997
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4/27/2005  2:47 AM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by Bonn1997:

He's a project that's probably not worth an early or mid lottery pick for the reasons Killa and others have given.

That remains to be seen, kemosabe. If he explodes and becomes a 20/10 guy, or maybe even more of a 25/8 guy, then what would you say? It's entirely within the realm of possibility. What we've seen and know of Darko right now is next to nothing. Pretty pointless to try to say right now that he's already a bust, or should have been taken much lower, etc. Judgments like that are empty words right now. There is no rational basis for firm evaluations here until we wait it out a few more years and see what happens.
I agree with everything you said. That's why I think it's a poor gamble to use a mid lottery pick on him. I didn't say it was guaranteed to work out poorly, but anyone whom we know nothing about is a bad gamble to use a mid lotter pick on.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/27/2005 02:47:53]
Bonn1997
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4/27/2005  2:44 PM
I'd like to be able to get Chris Kaman, but our lottery pick is too much to give up to get him and our two late 1st rd picks are probably too little.
Allanfan20
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4/27/2005  3:49 PM
You're too much Bonn.
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BRIGGS
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4/27/2005  3:55 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by Bonn1997:

He's a project that's probably not worth an early or mid lottery pick for the reasons Killa and others have given.

That remains to be seen, kemosabe. If he explodes and becomes a 20/10 guy, or maybe even more of a 25/8 guy, then what would you say? It's entirely within the realm of possibility. What we've seen and know of Darko right now is next to nothing. Pretty pointless to try to say right now that he's already a bust, or should have been taken much lower, etc. Judgments like that are empty words right now. There is no rational basis for firm evaluations here until we wait it out a few more years and see what happens.
I agree with everything you said. That's why I think it's a poor gamble to use a mid lottery pick on him. I didn't say it was guaranteed to work out poorly, but anyone whom we know nothing about is a bad gamble to use a mid lotter pick on.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/27/2005 02:47:53]

so your common sense tells you that we should just trade our pick no matter what, because we have no idea how ANY draft pick will work out.
We do have some common knowledge that Darko is 7-1250, 19 years old and did put up 16 points 5 reb 3 blocks when he got 30 minutes the other day. How many basketball players on this Earth at age 19 could do it. a few, thats it
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example of a player id be willing to give pick 8 up for
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