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Coaches Corner: Who's our next coach and why?
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Vmart
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6/2/2005  9:51 PM
I pray everyday to the Basketball Gods and hope that Herb will not be back as the NYK coach. Don't get me wrong I respect Herb the basketball player but I can't buy into his coaching abilities. Lets just say I saw enough of it to know he will not be able to help this situation with his coaching.

Besides Isiah will have to fire him in mid season and that cycle needs to be broken. Give the job to a good coach atleast this way no one will be calling for his head by mid season.
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Nalod
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6/3/2005  11:10 AM
Philhas two rings as a player, a CBA title or two, and 9 rings as coach.

Thats 11 NBA titles!

In chicago he took a high scoring guard and turned him into a god. Took Pippen, and made him a top 50 player. Basically he had two stars on each of his team surrounded by role players whom were bought in to fill a role.

Kobe and Shaq are great, but look at the rest of that squad(s)? Role players! Kobe is a fabulous talent and one of the great head case's of all time!

Phils greatest job was getting Dennis Rodman to play into the system and he was incredible! That is great coaching! Winning with Bill Wennington, Luc Longley, Will Perdue and Bill Cartwright as your centers is good coaching! It goes on and on. Maybe a good coach could still win a few titles with his lineups, but Freaking 9!

With free agency and other roster turnovers, those 6 titles in Chicago was impressive! He never quit after Mike retired either (the first time).

PHil is a Knick, a student of the last coach to win a title here and our yoda "red holzman"! Phil should be here, coach for a few years then take over for Isiah when it is his time to move on as Stan did with Riley. Phil can groom a successor and then continue to be president/gm and feed the system. Create a culture.

He might be too old and burnt out to do it at this juncture. This is why not blowing it up 18 mos ago sucked. we could have had this team wide open ready with cap room, draft picks, and a few prospects for a prime time coach to come in and put his mark on it.

I want phil, but understand why he won't come here.
OldFan
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6/3/2005  1:56 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Philhas two rings as a player, a CBA title or two, and 9 rings as coach.

Thats 11 NBA titles!

In chicago he took a high scoring guard and turned him into a god. Took Pippen, and made him a top 50 player. Basically he had two stars on each of his team surrounded by role players whom were bought in to fill a role.

Kobe and Shaq are great, but look at the rest of that squad(s)? Role players! Kobe is a fabulous talent and one of the great head case's of all time!

Phils greatest job was getting Dennis Rodman to play into the system and he was incredible! That is great coaching! Winning with Bill Wennington, Luc Longley, Will Perdue and Bill Cartwright as your centers is good coaching! It goes on and on. Maybe a good coach could still win a few titles with his lineups, but Freaking 9!

With free agency and other roster turnovers, those 6 titles in Chicago was impressive! He never quit after Mike retired either (the first time).

PHil is a Knick, a student of the last coach to win a title here and our yoda "red holzman"! Phil should be here, coach for a few years then take over for Isiah when it is his time to move on as Stan did with Riley. Phil can groom a successor and then continue to be president/gm and feed the system. Create a culture.

He might be too old and burnt out to do it at this juncture. This is why not blowing it up 18 mos ago sucked. we could have had this team wide open ready with cap room, draft picks, and a few prospects for a prime time coach to come in and put his mark on it.

I want phil, but understand why he won't come here.

Phil - did do a great job when he was coaching. But you give him a little too much credit. Jordan was more then a "high scoring guard" he was already easily one of the top five players in the league.

Pippen - was a top 10 player and would have been with or without Phil.

You say he two stars and role players then mention Rodman. Rodman didn't score but he was a VERY high impact player. The best defender and rebounder in the game. Grant was also not a role player a solid starter and border line all-star.

Shaq was the best player in the game and Kobe was easily top ten. These aren't just stars. I can't think of any team that Phil won with that wasn't arguably the most talented team in the league that year. So I don't think the argement that he won with Two Stars as proving anything - as those Two stars plus the "Role Players" gave him more talent then anyone else. What Phil did was get the talent to play nice together.That's very very difficult but given the ability to do that any decent X and O guy could have won with the talent he had on those teams.

I think he'd probably do well with less talent also - but it's not a sure thing. Being able to manage huge egos is a great talent but it doesn't gaurantee that he would be able to coach a team like the Knicks successfully.
Nalod
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6/3/2005  11:06 PM
Phils job is always open to debate, and your view is plausable for sure.

Rodman had already bombed out of San Antonio and was a big time freak with the bulls.

JOrdan was a big big time scorer, a second coming of David Thompson. But Phil forged Mike to a higher level. Mike bought into the mojo thing big time. Kobe went to the dark side for sure!

Somtimes phil does not get enough credit, and riley gets too much. Paul Westhead one the first title with that team, Riles went along for the ride. Riles was a great motivater and sent his knicks team further than they should have, but they were crazed and were not cool under the gun.

Again old news. I would love to blow this disaster up and have phil come in and create a culture. My dream.

Reality: Herb with Starphuching Assistant Ewing to help the promo.

Problem is, how we gonna clean that mess up in two years? Bad PR!
WOODMANnYk
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6/4/2005  2:47 PM
You guys can name every coach out there for the knicks coaching job. Bottom line and all indications point to Herb Williams..

As much as they wait longer, it heavily favors Herb.. The draft is 24 days away and the Knicks need to place a coach before then.. As a matter of fact, they have one, Herb Williams... They just haven't made it official yet..

IF you give Herb the players, he'll do a find job..
The Future. GO KNICKS!
OldFan
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6/4/2005  3:42 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Phils job is always open to debate, and your view is plausable for sure.

Rodman had already bombed out of San Antonio and was a big time freak with the bulls.

JOrdan was a big big time scorer, a second coming of David Thompson. But Phil forged Mike to a higher level. Mike bought into the mojo thing big time. Kobe went to the dark side for sure!

Somtimes phil does not get enough credit, and riley gets too much. Paul Westhead one the first title with that team, Riles went along for the ride. Riles was a great motivater and sent his knicks team further than they should have, but they were crazed and were not cool under the gun.

Again old news. I would love to blow this disaster up and have phil come in and create a culture. My dream.

Reality: Herb with Starphuching Assistant Ewing to help the promo.

Problem is, how we gonna clean that mess up in two years? Bad PR!

1987-1988
NBA Most Valuable Player **
NBA Defensive Player of the Year **
All-NBA First Team **
NBA All-Defensive First Team
NBA All-Star Game MVP NBA All-Star Starter
Slam Dunk Champion

Jackson did a great job with Chicago. But he too much credit for Jordan. Jordan was already the best Offensive and Defensive player in the game - see 87-88 season above.

Did Jackson help him with intangibles - maybe - or maybe when you're team wins people assume you have the intangibles.
OldFan
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6/4/2005  3:43 PM
Posted by WOODMANnYk:

You guys can name every coach out there for the knicks coaching job. Bottom line and all indications point to Herb Williams..

As much as they wait longer, it heavily favors Herb.. The draft is 24 days away and the Knicks need to place a coach before then.. As a matter of fact, they have one, Herb Williams... They just haven't made it official yet..

IF you give Herb the players, he'll do a find job..

I got no problem with Herb. I think he'll do fine given a chance.
Nalod
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6/4/2005  4:25 PM
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by Nalod:

Phils job is always open to debate, and your view is plausable for sure.

Rodman had already bombed out of San Antonio and was a big time freak with the bulls.

JOrdan was a big big time scorer, a second coming of David Thompson. But Phil forged Mike to a higher level. Mike bought into the mojo thing big time. Kobe went to the dark side for sure!

Somtimes phil does not get enough credit, and riley gets too much. Paul Westhead one the first title with that team, Riles went along for the ride. Riles was a great motivater and sent his knicks team further than they should have, but they were crazed and were not cool under the gun.

Again old news. I would love to blow this disaster up and have phil come in and create a culture. My dream.

Reality: Herb with Starphuching Assistant Ewing to help the promo.

Problem is, how we gonna clean that mess up in two years? Bad PR!

1987-1988
NBA Most Valuable Player **
NBA Defensive Player of the Year **
All-NBA First Team **
NBA All-Defensive First Team
NBA All-Star Game MVP NBA All-Star Starter
Slam Dunk Champion

Jackson did a great job with Chicago. But he too much credit for Jordan. Jordan was already the best Offensive and Defensive player in the game - see 87-88 season above.

Did Jackson help him with intangibles - maybe - or maybe when you're team wins people assume you have the intangibles.

Good point. The one intangible Phil taught him was to trust his teamates, and that intangible taught him to be a winner.

Marbury has yet to have such guidence. He had some nice players in Phoenix and with the right coach might have forged the trust. Marbs is not a closed (head) case quite yet.

I'd like to see someone with presence whom Marbs will trust. If Isiah is still going in the direction of making Marbs the team leader then I have concern with Herb. Otherwise, I can go with Herb.

LIke all good fits, it depends on team direction, roster, and type of coach. Herb has yet to find his groove, Marbs is not endorsing, team is funky mix of youth and vets, and a big draft looms.

Maybe see what our team looks like then name a coach. Only dido has a portal into Isiahs mind!
Vmart
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6/5/2005  1:17 PM
No Herb please. This is the last thing this team needs is a coach who is confused and doesn't have a clue to how to play the young players. The Knicks if you are paying attention have 3 more young players on the way with the way Herb treated Ariza and Sweetney you know he hasn't a clue about playing the young players. Then you have his defensive philosophy which totally backfired in his face I think the players that are here do not respect Herb enough to give him effort and those that will respect him the young will not be respected by Herb. Herb my friends is a disaster waiting to happen. He will be just another coach fired by mid season. Thsi will not promote continuity to building a winner.

[Edited by - Vmart on 06/05/2005 13:19:09]
Knicksfan
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6/5/2005  3:08 PM
I don't want Herb back. When he was give the team he started doing a fine job, but in the end he seemed to lose his players. Many strange decisions about who to play and when. Not using the young players when it was clear we were not making the playoffs. He only made me remember Chaney, and thats not a good thing.

I would like a real change because thats exactly what NY needs. Isiah bringing Herb back is just telling fans that the terrible nightmare of last season is going to continue, and I find it already difficult to be a Knicks fan...
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Nalod
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6/5/2005  10:16 PM
I would seriously consider the fact that Herb had little to say about his rotation and Isiah was pulling many of the decisions.

Let a rookie neophyte coach run a 105million dollar rotation? doubt it!

I think Herb would have to dictate his philosphy and his plans to plan and whom to play. And I would have to meet Isiahs approaval.

I think Isiah by having herb gets to pull all the strings. He can run the practices and control the assistants also. Next best thing to actually coaching the team!
Vmart
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6/5/2005  10:26 PM
Posted by Nalod:

I would seriously consider the fact that Herb had little to say about his rotation and Isiah was pulling many of the decisions.

Let a rookie neophyte coach run a 105million dollar rotation? doubt it!

I think Herb would have to dictate his philosphy and his plans to plan and whom to play. And I would have to meet Isiahs approaval.

I think Isiah by having herb gets to pull all the strings. He can run the practices and control the assistants also. Next best thing to actually coaching the team!

The last thing Isiah wants is Herb there and have to fire a coach in middle of the season for a third time. He knows stability is important and getting a top notch coach to lead the Knicks is very important. You don't think that Chuck Daly made an impression on him. The man was all about being a top notch coach and his two rings proved that. Isiah knows without Chuck they go nowhere and he knows with out a top notch coach in NY they don't go anywhere not even to a paltry playoff apperance.

Say no to Herb. He isn't in the mold of JVG or Pat Riley he is more in the mold of Don Chaney.
Pharzeone
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6/6/2005  1:50 PM
Posted by Nalod:

I would seriously consider the fact that Herb had little to say about his rotation and Isiah was pulling many of the decisions.

Let a rookie neophyte coach run a 105million dollar rotation? doubt it!

I think Herb would have to dictate his philosphy and his plans to plan and whom to play. And I would have to meet Isiahs approaval.

I think Isiah by having herb gets to pull all the strings. He can run the practices and control the assistants also. Next best thing to actually coaching the team!
Well you are wrong, Herb had totally control about court decisions, Isiah stayed out his hair, so to speak. Marc Berman, and Frank Isola both confirmed this. Herb's confirmed this on MSG. And the press tried to find somewhere Isiah interfered with Herb and couldn't find it. It was Herb's decision to start Ariza over TT even when he came back from his injury how much playing time Sweetney got and everything.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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6/6/2005  1:58 PM
Posted by Knicksfan:

I don't want Herb back. When he was give the team he started doing a fine job, but in the end he seemed to lose his players. Many strange decisions about who to play and when. Not using the young players when it was clear we were not making the playoffs. He only made me remember Chaney, and thats not a good thing.

I would like a real change because thats exactly what NY needs. Isiah bringing Herb back is just telling fans that the terrible nightmare of last season is going to continue, and I find it already difficult to be a Knicks fan...
He went into panic mode quickly after a losing streak. This guy is learning on the wing, scary. Seeking out Tex Winters to try and obtain a coaching philosophy causes me to worry that he is over his head. "Yoda, teach me how to be a Jedi Knight."
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
BigAppleStar3
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6/6/2005  3:51 PM
Bringing back Herb Williams kills the upcoming season for me. Why have a Draft if the coach isn't going to play them over the overrated veterans? We could have drafted Andrew Bogut. You think Herb is going to start, let alone play him over Kurt Thomas and Malik Rose? Herb is the worst coach in the league. I can name a few assistants I'd prefer. Look how many coaching openings we had this offseason. Did any other team ask to talk to Herb? Nope! And you know why.
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6/7/2005  10:09 AM
Posted by BigAppleStar3:

Bringing back Herb Williams kills the upcoming season for me. Why have a Draft if the coach isn't going to play them over the overrated veterans? We could have drafted Andrew Bogut. You think Herb is going to start, let alone play him over Kurt Thomas and Malik Rose? Herb is the worst coach in the league. I can name a few assistants I'd prefer. Look how many coaching openings we had this offseason. Did any other team ask to talk to Herb? Nope! And you know why.

Herb is a fine choice. Playing the rooks comes down to what Isiah says. This all comes down to people being pissed that Jackie Butler didn't play, but you know what, we didn't see him in practice everyday. Maybe he just couldn't cut it. The coach is going to try his best to win games, and play the guys who play his style - UNLESS he gets word from upstairs to play certain guys.

YES, I was pissed that we played our butts off to win three or four meaningless games in April, and I would love to be able to pencil Bogut in the middle, but that isn't Herb's fault at all. If anything, Herb proved he could be a solid coach when he had a horribly unbalanced roster with little skill and no backup guard whatsoever.
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Pharzeone
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6/7/2005  10:51 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BigAppleStar3:

Bringing back Herb Williams kills the upcoming season for me. Why have a Draft if the coach isn't going to play them over the overrated veterans? We could have drafted Andrew Bogut. You think Herb is going to start, let alone play him over Kurt Thomas and Malik Rose? Herb is the worst coach in the league. I can name a few assistants I'd prefer. Look how many coaching openings we had this offseason. Did any other team ask to talk to Herb? Nope! And you know why.

Herb is a fine choice. Playing the rooks comes down to what Isiah says. This all comes down to people being pissed that Jackie Butler didn't play, but you know what, we didn't see him in practice everyday. Maybe he just couldn't cut it. The coach is going to try his best to win games, and play the guys who play his style - UNLESS he gets word from upstairs to play certain guys.

YES, I was pissed that we played our butts off to win three or four meaningless games in April, and I would love to be able to pencil Bogut in the middle, but that isn't Herb's fault at all. If anything, Herb proved he could be a solid coach when he had a horribly unbalanced roster with little skill and no backup guard whatsoever.
No coach should be told who to play and who not to play. If a GM doesn't like what a coach is doing then you get rid of him but to think that Isiah has to tell Herb to play the young guys is not fair to either Herb or Isiah. Isiah got killed by the media when he was giving Marbury tips in practice when Marbury first got here, saying how disrespectful he was to Lenny. Herb should know his player rotation, you are right, I am not killing Herb so much about not playing those guys in games last season because I don't know what happen in practice. Hell Ariza and Butler could have been in his doghouse.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Nalod
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6/7/2005  10:54 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BigAppleStar3:

Bringing back Herb Williams kills the upcoming season for me. Why have a Draft if the coach isn't going to play them over the overrated veterans? We could have drafted Andrew Bogut. You think Herb is going to start, let alone play him over Kurt Thomas and Malik Rose? Herb is the worst coach in the league. I can name a few assistants I'd prefer. Look how many coaching openings we had this offseason. Did any other team ask to talk to Herb? Nope! And you know why.

Herb is a fine choice. Playing the rooks comes down to what Isiah says. This all comes down to people being pissed that Jackie Butler didn't play, but you know what, we didn't see him in practice everyday. Maybe he just couldn't cut it. The coach is going to try his best to win games, and play the guys who play his style - UNLESS he gets word from upstairs to play certain guys.

YES, I was pissed that we played our butts off to win three or four meaningless games in April, and I would love to be able to pencil Bogut in the middle, but that isn't Herb's fault at all. If anything, Herb proved he could be a solid coach when he had a horribly unbalanced roster with little skill and no backup guard whatsoever.
No coach should be told who to play and who not to play. If a GM doesn't like what a coach is doing then you get rid of him but to think that Isiah has to tell Herb to play the young guys is not fair to either Herb or Isiah. Isiah got killed by the media when he was giving Marbury tips in practice when Marbury first got here, saying how disrespectful he was to Lenny. Herb should know his player rotation, you are right, I am not killing Herb so much about not playing those guys in games last season because I don't know what happen in practice. Hell Ariza and Butler could have been in his doghouse.

I think Isiah was all over practice when Don chaney was his dog.

I think Isiah was welcome at lennys practices, especially during his naptime.

While I want the youngins to play, I understand if your paying 13 mil to a guy he should go out and do his job if he can. TT has more value to us putting up good numbers than being in the Lazy Gazy fog.

To some extent, Reezy proved himself, but it was TT that needed to step up and show somthing.
rvhoss
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6/7/2005  11:30 AM
I hat eto say it, but larry brown is the only and best option to bring the knicks over the top.

We have the point guard he loves, the lanky SG that can run off screens (why our coaches don't play it that way I have no idea), the Tim Thomas freak of nature almost 7 footer that can post up and hit hte outside shot (he has shown flashes) ala Sheed. Imagine the crowd yelling Teeeeee when he gets the ball in the post like sheed?

We have a million PF's, but benny wallace is what, 6'-9'? No reason Rose's and JYD's hustle combined with Kurt's outside jumper and inside tenacity can't be used to maximum effect.

Heck, we already have a contender...we just need a god forsaken coach for Pete's sake.

That's why I want brown.

all kool aid all the time.
Nalod
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6/7/2005  1:22 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

I hat eto say it, but larry brown is the only and best option to bring the knicks over the top.

We have the point guard he loves, the lanky SG that can run off screens (why our coaches don't play it that way I have no idea), the Tim Thomas freak of nature almost 7 footer that can post up and hit hte outside shot (he has shown flashes) ala Sheed. Imagine the crowd yelling Teeeeee when he gets the ball in the post like sheed?

We have a million PF's, but benny wallace is what, 6'-9'? No reason Rose's and JYD's hustle combined with Kurt's outside jumper and inside tenacity can't be used to maximum effect.

Heck, we already have a contender...we just need a god forsaken coach for Pete's sake.

That's why I want brown.

On paper we do seem close!

But Oh so many differences! Larry is good in my book, even if for two years!
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