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Artest vs. the #7 pick
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Bonn1997
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Would you trade our lottery pick at #7 for Artest?
Yes, Artest's probably better than the player we'll get @ #7
No, Artest's better but he has too many off-the-court problems
No, we'll get a player better than Artest at #7
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Bonn1997
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4/19/2005  6:49 PM
I'd do a Sweetney, TT, and the pick for Artest and a bad contract. It's a big risk since Artest has off-the-court issues, but those issues he's always played his heart out on the court. And I actually think until the big incident this year, he was showing improvement. The big incident this year was just a crazy event where he was one of several responsible players. It's not like he's the only one who went crazy. My suspicion is that he has a return like Spree did--the off the court issues will always be there, but he'll learn how to behave on the court.

As far as talent is concerned, to me it's a no-brainer. He was last year's defensive player of the year and he puts up 20PPG. He was probably the 4th best player in the league last year behind only Shaq, Duncan, and Garnett. Jermaine O'Neal got more credit and Artest got less credit than they deserved for last year's 61 win season IMO.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/19/2005 18:51:34]
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MaTT4281
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4/19/2005  6:53 PM
Since it would have to be on draft day, or after it, I would like to see who's available at #7, or if it's possible for us to move up before trading it off. I love Artest, but If this draft is as good as everyone is saying it is, I'd take my chances with the pick than hope Ron doesn't put out another cd.
Killa4luv
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4/19/2005  6:54 PM
I think its a no brainer in that what we give up is not worth what he is. I would do this and cheat, rob and steal to get another pick and at least one defensive big. I would like that alot, Artest could ground us alot on perimeter D. Put him on the best player on the other team and he is gonna cause problems for them.

It would probably be artest and pollard, artest and croshere, or artest and bender. Proly croshere.
gunsnewing
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4/19/2005  6:57 PM
Posted by MaTT4281:

Since it would have to be on draft day, or after it, I would like to see who's available at #7, or if it's possible for us to move up before trading it off. I love Artest, but If this draft is as good as everyone is saying it is, I'd take my chances with the pick than hope Ron doesn't put out another cd.

its not that great a draft. itsa deep draft. with that said I would still prefer the pick over hoping artest doesnt release a cd or kill a fan
teslawlo
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4/19/2005  7:06 PM
I'd do it. I don't think there are many impact, immediate contributors where we are picking, and the only player who has a better long term potential at our spot than Artest is Gerald Green, which is a long term project and a risk. I believe Artest will turn it around personality-wise after this season and mature. I think people have forgotten how elite of a defender and how good overall Artest was becoming. Do me a favor, check out his stats again. This guy is not a faker, strong on the boards (we need that), always in the top 10 in steals (we need that), can pass the ball (we need that), has developed his shot (we need a guy who can hit shots), and he would make the other guys' deficiencies on defense a lot less noticeable.
Now, getting him is a whole nother story. I don't think Indiana will give him up, even after this season's horrible incident. He's too young and talented, period.
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gunsnewing
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4/19/2005  7:10 PM
Posted by teslawlo:

I'd do it. I don't think there are many impact, immediate contributors where we are picking, and the only player who has a better long term potential at our spot than Artest is Gerald Green, which is a long term project and a risk. I believe Artest will turn it around personality-wise after this season and mature. I think people have forgotten how elite of a defender and how good overall Artest was becoming. Do me a favor, check out his stats again. This guy is not a faker, strong on the boards (we need that), always in the top 10 in steals (we need that), can pass the ball (we need that), has developed his shot (we need a guy who can hit shots), and he would make the other guys' deficiencies on defense a lot less noticeable.
Now, getting him is a whole nother story. I don't think Indiana will give him up, even after this season's horrible incident. He's too young and talented, period.

with all that said, let it be known that we drafted Frederic Weis over this guy.

if we can survive that then we can survive taking a chance on our draft pick
nyk4ever
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4/19/2005  7:12 PM
Of course I would do that. Everyone knows that Ronnie can play Defense and play it very well but what surprised everyone the most last year was that he really developed a great offensive game, I think he was averaging near 24 ppg before he was suspended. If the Pacers really wanted to make that trade (and you have to think that they are going through all the possible trade scenarios that involve Ron) then I would hope the 7th pick and a player would be enough to get Artest back in NYC.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
BRIGGS
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4/19/2005  7:20 PM
I dont want to base my team on a guy who with one more blow up is done.

if it was a sprewell deal, I would do it. thats pretty much it. there is no difference in talent level between sprewell in his prime and Artest, in fact Sprewell was probably the better player. Sprewell was first team all nba and defense in when he was 26, choked PJ when he was 27 and became a Knick for an old John starks and 2 other fringe players in 1998 at 28. I see it as no different scenario--its a high risk acquisition and for that he would only be worth a Kurt Thomas and pick 30 to me:>)
RIP Crushalot😞
gunsnewing
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4/19/2005  7:25 PM
and tt, taylor or crawford
Killa4luv
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4/19/2005  7:43 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

I dont want to base my team on a guy who with one more blow up is done.

if it was a sprewell deal, I would do it. thats pretty much it. there is no difference in talent level between sprewell in his prime and Artest, in fact Sprewell was probably the better player.
ooohhhh, I don't agree here. Ron Artest is probably the best mna to man defender in the league at his position. I don't think you could ever say that about Spreewell. Spree's offensive game was more developed, but give ron ron a second.

Also Ron isn't in his prime yet, he is still peaking.
Kwazimodal
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4/19/2005  7:51 PM
Artest is supposed to be going through more anger management counseling.If the docs say he has made a real improvement then I might be for it if noone we wanted was available at 7.

I was against it intially but desperate times.....
teslawlo
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4/19/2005  7:53 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

I dont want to base my team on a guy who with one more blow up is done.

if it was a sprewell deal, I would do it. thats pretty much it. there is no difference in talent level between sprewell in his prime and Artest, in fact Sprewell was probably the better player. Sprewell was first team all nba and defense in when he was 26, choked PJ when he was 27 and became a Knick for an old John starks and 2 other fringe players in 1998 at 28. I see it as no different scenario--its a high risk acquisition and for that he would only be worth a Kurt Thomas and pick 30 to me:>)
Ron is a bit younger than Spree, and look @ the season he was having before he got suspended! Assuming his stats all went down a bit, he would still settle in as above a 20 ppg scorer + first team nba defense = ELITE PLAYER. I don't care if you trade all of our assets to get him, this is a guy who is worth the risk. In fact, that sprewell trade is a great example. Take the player when the other team gives up on him. However, I can only dream that Indiana will want to deal with Isiah, and that they want to give away artest.
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BRIGGS
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4/19/2005  7:56 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by BRIGGS:

I dont want to base my team on a guy who with one more blow up is done.

if it was a sprewell deal, I would do it. thats pretty much it. there is no difference in talent level between sprewell in his prime and Artest, in fact Sprewell was probably the better player.
ooohhhh, I don't agree here. Ron Artest is probably the best mna to man defender in the league at his position. I don't think you could ever say that about Spreewell. Spree's offensive game was more developed, but give ron ron a second.

Also Ron isn't in his prime yet, he is still peaking.

You can go back and look at stats if you didnt see Sprewell play when he was young, but Sprewell was a much better all-around player than Ron. I mean he was first team ALL NBA at age 23 and was on two or three high level all nba defensive teams either 2 or 3.

When we acquired Sprewell, prior to him choking PJ, he was a 24 point 6.5 assists almost 5 rebounds 2 steal player who shot 45%

Ron Artest has not had any years like Sprewell during his time in the nBA at the same age. On top of that Artest has been much much worse in terms of his behaviour and the risk involved with him now.
RIP Crushalot😞
gunsnewing
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4/19/2005  8:03 PM
let me list the players I will take over the huge Artest risk:

Bogut
Green
Taft
Williams
Warrick
Splitter
Vazquez

if all those guys are gone by the time we pick then I would take Artest but it is more likely that one of these guys will be available to us when we pick.

I think Artest is a heck of a player but we've witnessed a lot of mistakes over the years like the Mcdyess for Nene & Camby. I'm sure the same people who want Artest and are minimizing the fact that he can be a disaster are the same people who would've loved that Mcdyess trade before it even happened. A lot of people were skeptical on draft day when they heard about the trade but chose to accept it like myself but sure enough it backfired completely!
BRIGGS
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4/19/2005  8:04 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by BRIGGS:

I dont want to base my team on a guy who with one more blow up is done.

if it was a sprewell deal, I would do it. thats pretty much it. there is no difference in talent level between sprewell in his prime and Artest, in fact Sprewell was probably the better player.
ooohhhh, I don't agree here. Ron Artest is probably the best mna to man defender in the league at his position. I don't think you could ever say that about Spreewell. Spree's offensive game was more developed, but give ron ron a second.

Also Ron isn't in his prime yet, he is still peaking.


Im just telling you like this, Sprewell at the same age was a better player. not only was he a great offensive player who was a good passer and rebounder from the 2, he was a tough nosed 2 defender and was always high in the league in steals. I mean he was 1st TEAM all NBA at 23, Ron has not been close to that.

When you are saying Id give up a 7pick Tim Thomas and Mike Sweetney for a VERY similar scenario in which we gave up John Starks, Chris Mills and Terry Cummings, you sound foolish[nothing personal]. You are not discounting his problems at all here, and that is major.

Sprewell was the better player and atleast EVEN, but not really spree was better--yet in this case you want to give them 22 year old Sweetney pick 7 AND Tim Thomas, sorry but your are crazy legs!
RIP Crushalot😞
Bonn1997
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4/19/2005  8:07 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by BRIGGS:

I dont want to base my team on a guy who with one more blow up is done.

if it was a sprewell deal, I would do it. thats pretty much it. there is no difference in talent level between sprewell in his prime and Artest, in fact Sprewell was probably the better player.
ooohhhh, I don't agree here. Ron Artest is probably the best mna to man defender in the league at his position. I don't think you could ever say that about Spreewell. Spree's offensive game was more developed, but give ron ron a second.

Also Ron isn't in his prime yet, he is still peaking.

You can go back and look at stats if you didnt see Sprewell play when he was young, but Sprewell was a much better all-around player than Ron. I mean he was first team ALL NBA at age 23 and was on two or three high level all nba defensive teams either 2 or 3.

When we acquired Sprewell, prior to him choking PJ, he was a 24 point 6.5 assists almost 5 rebounds 2 steal player who shot 45%

Ron Artest has not had any years like Sprewell during his time in the nBA at the same age. On top of that Artest has been much much worse in terms of his behaviour and the risk involved with him now.
Ron put up 20 PPG on the team with the best record in the league. How good were Spree's GS teams? I honestly can't remember. I'd say the difference in defense between Spree in his prime and Artest is huge. If you want to go based on stats, Artest holds guys to below 40% shooting (way better than guys like Bowen, Prince do). Also, as Killa pointed out, Artest is 24 and significantly improving. With that in mind, it seems unlikely that he would have the statistical decline the older Spree had when returning from suspension.
gunsnewing
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4/19/2005  8:15 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by BRIGGS:

I dont want to base my team on a guy who with one more blow up is done.

if it was a sprewell deal, I would do it. thats pretty much it. there is no difference in talent level between sprewell in his prime and Artest, in fact Sprewell was probably the better player.
ooohhhh, I don't agree here. Ron Artest is probably the best mna to man defender in the league at his position. I don't think you could ever say that about Spreewell. Spree's offensive game was more developed, but give ron ron a second.

Also Ron isn't in his prime yet, he is still peaking.

You can go back and look at stats if you didnt see Sprewell play when he was young, but Sprewell was a much better all-around player than Ron. I mean he was first team ALL NBA at age 23 and was on two or three high level all nba defensive teams either 2 or 3.

When we acquired Sprewell, prior to him choking PJ, he was a 24 point 6.5 assists almost 5 rebounds 2 steal player who shot 45%

Ron Artest has not had any years like Sprewell during his time in the nBA at the same age. On top of that Artest has been much much worse in terms of his behaviour and the risk involved with him now.

easy there Briggs. Spree put up those kind of stats on terrible Golden State teams. Artest plays on the same championship conending team as O'neal.

Artest is a much better defensive stopper. its not even comparable. All sprewell did better was run the floor
nyk4ever
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4/19/2005  8:17 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by BRIGGS:

I dont want to base my team on a guy who with one more blow up is done.

if it was a sprewell deal, I would do it. thats pretty much it. there is no difference in talent level between sprewell in his prime and Artest, in fact Sprewell was probably the better player.
ooohhhh, I don't agree here. Ron Artest is probably the best mna to man defender in the league at his position. I don't think you could ever say that about Spreewell. Spree's offensive game was more developed, but give ron ron a second.

Also Ron isn't in his prime yet, he is still peaking.

You can go back and look at stats if you didnt see Sprewell play when he was young, but Sprewell was a much better all-around player than Ron. I mean he was first team ALL NBA at age 23 and was on two or three high level all nba defensive teams either 2 or 3.

When we acquired Sprewell, prior to him choking PJ, he was a 24 point 6.5 assists almost 5 rebounds 2 steal player who shot 45%

Ron Artest has not had any years like Sprewell during his time in the nBA at the same age. On top of that Artest has been much much worse in terms of his behaviour and the risk involved with him now.
Ron put up 20 PPG on the team with the best record in the league. How good were Spree's GS teams? I honestly can't remember. I'd say the difference in defense between Spree in his prime and Artest is huge. If you want to go based on stats, Artest holds guys to below 40% shooting (way better than guys like Bowen, Prince do). Also, as Killa pointed out, Artest is 24 and significantly improving. With that in mind, it seems unlikely that he would have the statistical decline the older Spree had when returning from suspension.

Not to mention he's won the Defensive Player of the Year award. The way I look at it is like this. After being suspended for a full year, if Ron Artest has not learned his lesson and comes back continues to be stupid then he will be out of the league. I honestly don't think he's going to come back and create problems, now obviously I don't know the guy personally, but you have to think he would be a real idiot to come back and continue to be a problem.. ESPECIALLY when he doesnt have a huge contract to fall back on.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 04/19/2005 20:21:01]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
gunsnewing
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4/19/2005  8:19 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by BRIGGS:

I dont want to base my team on a guy who with one more blow up is done.

if it was a sprewell deal, I would do it. thats pretty much it. there is no difference in talent level between sprewell in his prime and Artest, in fact Sprewell was probably the better player.
ooohhhh, I don't agree here. Ron Artest is probably the best mna to man defender in the league at his position. I don't think you could ever say that about Spreewell. Spree's offensive game was more developed, but give ron ron a second.

Also Ron isn't in his prime yet, he is still peaking.


Im just telling you like this, Sprewell at the same age was a better player. not only was he a great offensive player who was a good passer and rebounder from the 2, he was a tough nosed 2 defender and was always high in the league in steals. I mean he was 1st TEAM all NBA at 23, Ron has not been close to that.

When you are saying Id give up a 7pick Tim Thomas and Mike Sweetney for a VERY similar scenario in which we gave up John Starks, Chris Mills and Terry Cummings, you sound foolish[nothing personal]. You are not discounting his problems at all here, and that is major.

Sprewell was the better player and atleast EVEN, but not really spree was better--yet in this case you want to give them 22 year old Sweetney pick 7 AND Tim Thomas, sorry but your are crazy legs!

what a minute! wasnt artest defensive player of the year last year! thats a lot better than making all defense team!

but I agree our lottery pick + Sweetney & TT's expiring deal is way too much for a player who can blow up in your face any minute!



[Edited by - gunsnewing on 04/19/2005 21:24:44]
nyk4ever
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4/19/2005  8:20 PM
Yes he was, I just stated that in my reply after yours.... either way, winning defensive player of the year as a SF is much better then being on the All-NBA First team.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 04/19/2005 20:27:22]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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