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Chad Ford Grades the East (Knicks)
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TMS
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4/19/2005  9:13 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Knicksfan:

The only thing that really bothers me is that it seems that like Layden, Isiah has no plan on what to do with the Knicks. Without a plan, how can you build a good team?
Every one of his trades were consistent with his plan to get younger and more athletic. (I didn't agree with every trade, but that's a separate topic.) If you disagree, then list some of his trades where we gave up more athletic players than the key one(s) we acquired. It's clear that his plan is to get younger and more athletic, but it's also clear it's gonna take more than one season to see good results.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/19/2005 17:41:33]

the Spoon for Moochie trade didn't really fit that mold to be fair, though i didn't have a problem w/it from a cap standpoint.

also, some of Isiah's other moves have been totally contradictory to the mantra of getting younger & more athletic:
- his signing of KT to a contract extension
- signing Vin Baker to a free agent contract
- signing Bruno Sundov (young, but the guy's a stiff, let's be honest)
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newyorknewyork
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4/19/2005  11:11 PM
I still see it as to early to judge Isiah as a failure. He had a poor season. But he is cappable of making moves and cappable of drafting well.

The only move I didn't like is the Mo Taylor move.

Marbury move I liked it and still do.
TT & Muhammad move added more value to the team
Norris move great move as it opend up time for Sweetney and saved money
Crawford move is solid Crawford is 24 with unlimited potential. Crawford has shown improvement and still has time to earn that contract since he hasn't gotten paid big yet. And I love JYD
Rose I like it because I like Rose style and the 2 draft picks.
Taylor move was just bad.

A solid shotblocking center, outside shooter, and internal improvement with Crawford, Ariza, Sweets would get this team into the playoffs next season. This team is in cap hell into 07 no matter what which I was expecting when Isiah first came in anyway.
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Bonn1997
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4/19/2005  11:19 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Knicksfan:

The only thing that really bothers me is that it seems that like Layden, Isiah has no plan on what to do with the Knicks. Without a plan, how can you build a good team?
Every one of his trades were consistent with his plan to get younger and more athletic. (I didn't agree with every trade, but that's a separate topic.) If you disagree, then list some of his trades where we gave up more athletic players than the key one(s) we acquired. It's clear that his plan is to get younger and more athletic, but it's also clear it's gonna take more than one season to see good results.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/19/2005 17:41:33]

the Spoon for Moochie trade didn't really fit that mold to be fair, though i didn't have a problem w/it from a cap standpoint.

also, some of Isiah's other moves have been totally contradictory to the mantra of getting younger & more athletic:
- his signing of KT to a contract extension
- signing Vin Baker to a free agent contract
- signing Bruno Sundov (young, but the guy's a stiff, let's be honest)
I actually think Moochie is more athletic than Spoon. He's quicker and in better shape. But the main point of that trade was probably to clear up playing time for Sweetney; it didn't make a noticeable difference to the team's athleticism.
It's hard to comment on the Baker signing because we don't know if it was an implicit part of the Crawford deal as some reports have suggested.
I haven't seen enough of Bruno to compare his athleticism to the average league min player. But you can have the goal of getting more athletic without every single one of your decisions increasing your team's athleticism. Some players may not be great athletes but may fit well with your athletes. For example, Kurt can fit well (preferrably as a 6th man) with athletic guard who can penetrate and draw defenders, freeing up jump shots for him. Maybe Isiah had the same thing in mind with Bruno since he's a big man who can hit jump shots.
gunsnewing
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4/19/2005  11:23 PM
A solid shotblocking center, outside shooter, and internal improvement with Crawford, Ariza, Sweets would get this team into the playoffs next season. This team is in cap hell into 07 no matter what which I was expecting when Isiah first came in anyway.

you're forgetting one thing...

A perimeter defender would do a lot more for this team than another shooter since we already have crawford, especially if he learns how to play basketball and TT is decent and Houston might be back for 15mins a night
MX25
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4/19/2005  11:35 PM
My biggest problem with Isiah is that he flip flops. When he got here and made the Marbury trade. He said how trading the draft picks meant nothing to him. Cause a) he didn't like drafts cause they are crapshoot and b) he's not here to rebuild knicks he's "retooling" them.

And now when Knicks are bad team and have lottery pick. He suddenly loves draft picks and is rebuilding.

He flip flops. He has a plan. His plan is 2 play both sides of the spectrum. Retooling? Rebuilding? Which one????
Bonn1997
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4/19/2005  11:41 PM
Posted by MX25:

My biggest problem with Isiah is that he flip flops. When he got here and made the Marbury trade. He said how trading the draft picks meant nothing to him. Cause a) he didn't like drafts cause they are crapshoot and b) he's not here to rebuild knicks he's "retooling" them.

And now when Knicks are bad team and have lottery pick. He suddenly loves draft picks and is rebuilding.

He flip flops. He has a plan. His plan is 2 play both sides of the spectrum. Retooling? Rebuilding? Which one????
Funny, I don't remember him saying any of those things. I think he said he wasn't going to build primarily through the draft. And he talks about the core being Marbury, Ariza, Crawford and Sweetney now. Ariza is the only one he acquired through the draft. He's probably looking for players in the draft to compliment that core (if he even keeps rather than trades the draft picks, an assumption you're obviously making). That's not inconsistent with anything he's said unless you have some quotes I haven't seen or have forgotten.
Bobby
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4/20/2005  12:03 AM
Posted by fishmike:

i was being sarcastic.

Sports comes down to wins and money. If your paid like a star play like a star. Otherwise your a goat. If your not winning your losing. That perception changes when... you win.

Isiah has added something like $250mm in salary and only Houston and Sweetney are guys from the previous management.

So lets recap:
All his players
spends tons of money
team totally sucks

Sorry but Isiah deserve's 100% of this. When the team and players on it start to show something I will change my tune, and you will stop seeing these kinds of articles.

We have no plan and no style of play.

fish, i agree

last year's excuse by many posters for knicks winless record due to zeke did not have a full season and lenny needing his summer camp

so what was the tune this season ?

what i cant understand is this layden excuse fans constantly bring up while wearing rose colored glass acting like zeke parted the hudson river or something.......paleeeze!

ernie grunfeld in washington had just as much if not more of a job than zeke had in new york and the zards are balling with the second highest injury rate this season....sorry, wrong excuse

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Nalod
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4/20/2005  12:09 AM
Posted by tomverve:

Nalod, if Chad wants to give the Knicks an F, fine, but he should at least be consistent. Our season has been disappointing, but not the worst in the NBA. Minnesota was supposed to be a title favorite and they didn't even make the playoffs! Title favorite -> low lottery team is a much bigger dropoff from expectation to reality than mid/low playoff seed -> mid lottery. If this Knicks season gets an F, Christ, the whole Timberwolves franchise should just be disbanded right now.

Anytime you have a worse record than before, take on mo taylor, mo money mo money, and your payroll exceeds 21% from the no. 2 payroll, your gonna get bashed in the media.

I don't care about Layden, the Wolves, or the Lakes, Im looking at the record this year and we freakin went backwards.

This is Isiahs team and has been for a while. If he blew it up, thats one thing, but he restocked and prolonged the agony. Im not calling for his head, he got two more years to prove the media wrong on his contract.

I like his risk taking and bringing in all kinds of Jackies, Reezy and even Vin's. Im ok with most of his moves and we could be ok in the future, but lets be real, we freaking blow this season. Next season will be differnt.
Bonn1997
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4/20/2005  8:42 AM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by tomverve:

Nalod, if Chad wants to give the Knicks an F, fine, but he should at least be consistent. Our season has been disappointing, but not the worst in the NBA. Minnesota was supposed to be a title favorite and they didn't even make the playoffs! Title favorite -> low lottery team is a much bigger dropoff from expectation to reality than mid/low playoff seed -> mid lottery. If this Knicks season gets an F, Christ, the whole Timberwolves franchise should just be disbanded right now.

Anytime you have a worse record than before, take on mo taylor, mo money mo money, and your payroll exceeds 21% from the no. 2 payroll, your gonna get bashed in the media.

I don't care about Layden, the Wolves, or the Lakes, Im looking at the record this year and we freakin went backwards.

This is Isiahs team and has been for a while. If he blew it up, thats one thing, but he restocked and prolonged the agony. Im not calling for his head, he got two more years to prove the media wrong on his contract.

I like his risk taking and bringing in all kinds of Jackies, Reezy and even Vin's. Im ok with most of his moves and we could be ok in the future, but lets be real, we freaking blow this season. Next season will be differnt.
I don't think Tom disagreed with any of what you're saying. He just wanted Chad to be consistent
Marv
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4/20/2005  9:10 AM
Personally I don't care whether Chad's consistent or not - he has been a Knick hater all along, but I'm not going to argue about anyone giving the Knicks or Isiah an F this year - it's deserved IMO.
MS
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4/20/2005  9:14 AM
Isiah is a terrible GM plain and simple......

You want to change the franchise you start with the coach, if I am running the team I wait, don't bring in Wilkens in the middle of the season.....I wanted Doc Rivers someone who yells is accountable and someone that is going to teach......

But we recycle Chaney into Lenny and Lenny into Herb.....

We don't have one player on the team that is clutch, Marbury sucks, Crawford sucks they don't make big plays when it counts, they are useless when it matters, and neither of them play defense.....

There isn't one positive to take out of the season, the Lakers at least got increased production from Caron Butler towards the end of the season........

We overplayed our best player who is injured and lost two slots in the lottery because of it.......

Isiah is off to Europe now isn't that typical run run run....just as you have done, every where you go

Minnesota was not as good as everyone says that is why they didn't get an F, and they didn't quit like the Knicks......

Herb is not a good coach or a smart man, it is very clear that he has no pattern of how to substitue he just trys to play everyone....Giving a CBA player with no jumpshot or scoring ability 20 mins a game is ludicris, he sits sweetney, plays marbury too long, and then ususally rests him the first 4 min of the fourth and then we lose our lead.....hasn't played JYD enough......

Plain and simple you don't play defense you don't box out your coming out
fishmike
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4/20/2005  9:17 AM
Minn doesnt deserve an F. They had a winning record. We are 32-49.
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Bonn1997
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4/20/2005  9:45 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Minn doesnt deserve an F. They had a winning record. We are 32-49.
So, grade is based solely on record and expectations are irrelevant? In that case, 7 teams should have gotten Fs because they were all worse than the Knicks. Chad is singling out the Knicks due to hate even more severely than I realized.
franco12
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4/20/2005  10:04 AM
Posted by MS:

Isiah is a terrible GM plain and simple......

You want to change the franchise you start with the coach, if I am running the team I wait, don't bring in Wilkens in the middle of the season.....I wanted Doc Rivers someone who yells is accountable and someone that is going to teach......

But we recycle Chaney into Lenny and Lenny into Herb.....

I'll agree that Lenny was a bad move & he should have gone after Doc- bet our record would be better than it is with Doc
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4/20/2005  1:03 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Minn doesnt deserve an F. They had a winning record. We are 32-49.

If that's your reasoning, our grade should at worst be a D, with the Fs reserved for Charlotte, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc. Hell, why bother with the grades; just rank the teams by their records and be done with it.

A team should be evaluated based on what the reasonable expectations were for it going into the season. I wouldn't give Charlotte an F, because they're an expansion team. Nor would I give Atlanta an F, because it's clear they're deep in the throes of rebuilding. Minnesota absolutely gets an F, as they are by far the most disappointing team of this season. Reigning conference finalists with a reigning MVP, and they don't even make the playoffs? But it's OK, because they had a winning record. I don't think so, and I doubt their fans do either.
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Nalod
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4/20/2005  1:08 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by fishmike:

Minn doesnt deserve an F. They had a winning record. We are 32-49.

If that's your reasoning, our grade should at worst be a D, with the Fs reserved for Charlotte, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc. Hell, why bother with the grades; just rank the teams by their records and be done with it.

A team should be evaluated based on what the reasonable expectations were for it going into the season. I wouldn't give Charlotte an F, because they're an expansion team. Nor would I give Atlanta an F, because it's clear they're deep in the throes of rebuilding. Minnesota absolutely gets an F, as they are by far the most disappointing team of this season. Reigning conference finalists with a reigning MVP, and they don't even make the playoffs? But it's OK, because they had a winning record. I don't think so, and I doubt their fans do either.

ATL, HOrnets blew it up and restructuring. They went the youth route. They did not have the highest payrol. Charlotte, they should get a higher grade as you mentioned, and Minny, well they did suck, but played better down the stretch. Spree and Sam bailed on them. They are not in cap hell and can make moves.

I think the team deserves an "F" given the roster we have.
newyorknewyork
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4/20/2005  1:47 PM
Im not going to use the 15 month line. But I do see Isiah with room to some good things this offseason. If he fails then I would say its time to move on. If he succeeds then with the pieces he already has we could really turn it around.
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Bonn1997
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4/20/2005  1:49 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by fishmike:

Minn doesnt deserve an F. They had a winning record. We are 32-49.

If that's your reasoning, our grade should at worst be a D, with the Fs reserved for Charlotte, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc. Hell, why bother with the grades; just rank the teams by their records and be done with it.

A team should be evaluated based on what the reasonable expectations were for it going into the season. I wouldn't give Charlotte an F, because they're an expansion team. Nor would I give Atlanta an F, because it's clear they're deep in the throes of rebuilding. Minnesota absolutely gets an F, as they are by far the most disappointing team of this season. Reigning conference finalists with a reigning MVP, and they don't even make the playoffs? But it's OK, because they had a winning record. I don't think so, and I doubt their fans do either.

ATL, HOrnets blew it up and restructuring. They went the youth route. They did not have the highest payrol. Charlotte, they should get a higher grade as you mentioned, and Minny, well they did suck, but played better down the stretch. Spree and Sam bailed on them. They are not in cap hell and can make moves.

I think the team deserves an "F" given the roster we have.
Isn't Minny over the cap and still has like only 1 draft pick over the next two years? That's not a great reason to give them higher than an F. We're further over the cap but have four first round picks over the next 2 years. If you want to give breaks to teams that focussed on the future, you have to give the Knicks a break because they have acquired 4 1st rounders over the next two years.
MS
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4/20/2005  1:59 PM
I hate when people bring up these ****ing draft picks, when they turn into something then lets talk

As of now you compare two things record which they had us by 10 or so games, and star power, top 6 player vs. top 18 player, so they get a better grade....

As dissapointments go the knicks are as high as possiblee
MS
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4/20/2005  2:14 PM
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