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edsonline
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4/7/2005  3:07 PM
Somewhat in response to another thread, but I think this warrants a thread of its own - If someone thinks trading Miles and Ratliff for NYK picks and expiring contracts is doing the NYK a favor then they are stupid. I don't care what stupid people think. I just laugh at them. Only way I would take Ratliff is to get Zach. Period. F--- Myles. Houston probably wishes they still had Mo with what's going on with Juwan Howard. Plus Moochie and Vin are so washed up the NYK had to include the 2nd round pick to make the trade fair for Houston. I'd trade Crawford in a second to get Ray Allen, but if anyone thinks the NYK would have been better off with the dudes they traded to get Crawford and JYD they're nuts. Just because those teams are doing better than us right now that doesn't make Isiah's moves bad. I would much rather have the guys (and picks)Isiah has brought in than the guys he's moved out. Look at all the teams mentioned in that other thread realistically. The only one that's in a better position LONG-TERM to be good is Houston. Portland is a hopeless f---ing mess. Bulls are better right now, but look at all of the picks, expiring contracts (Tim and Penny), prospects (Mike and Trevor), and tradeable players (Jamal and Kurt) the Knicks have. This team could have a HUGE turnaround next season and win this sorry @$$ division. They were actually in 1st place this year before the injuries caught up to them and they fell apart. Look at some of the dudes Isiah can go after this summer, Ray Allen, Ron Artest, Zach Randolph. If the Knicks land even ONE of those three and team him up with Marbury and the lotto pick (Taft???) that team has a legit chance of winning the division next year. TWO of them they're right behind Miami and Detroit. THREE of them they're right there with the elite of the conference.
AUTOADVERT
fishmike
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4/7/2005  3:12 PM
they arent stupid though... thats the kind of trades Isiah has made. Miles and Ratliff for Penny and change would give the Knicks back the more talented players. Most of these players Isiah has gotten back are better. Nobody is saying the Vin or Mooch are better then Mo. The point is we get stuck with other teams long term crap.

This is what Isiah has been doing. Why is it silly to suggest he will do it again?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
edsonline
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4/7/2005  3:24 PM
The NYK expiring deals and draft picks for Myles and Ratliff?!?!?! That is clearly stupid. I'll put it to you this way - I'm all for landing Zach. But I wouldn't want to include the lotto pick to do it. That's why saying trading the NYK picks to get f---ing Myles and Ratliff is stupid. HUGE difference in the talent level and usefulness of the main guy the NYK would get back. Somebody suggesting the Knicks trading their picks to get Myles and Ratliff is STUPID. There's no grey are on that. They are STUPID. Isiah traded two firsts to get Marbury - a top talent at his position. Isiah didn't trade for Myles last year cuz Cavs wanted too much for the guy. That trade suggestion wasn't anything like what Isiah has done. The season has gone down the toilet, but let's not be ridiculous. When has Isiah traded two firsts (one a lotto pick)and expiring contracts for guys like Myles and Ratliff??!! WHEN?!?! That suggestion is way beyond silly.
BRIGGS
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4/7/2005  3:28 PM
Posted by fishmike:

they arent stupid though... thats the kind of trades Isiah has made. Miles and Ratliff for Penny and change would give the Knicks back the more talented players. Most of these players Isiah has gotten back are better. Nobody is saying the Vin or Mooch are better then Mo. The point is we get stuck with other teams long term crap.

This is what Isiah has been doing. Why is it silly to suggest he will do it again?

Exactly fish. I try to think[most of the times, before I speak] and I think what we say is very valid.

Someone says, Vin baker and moochie--what can you get with that? well perhaps nothing, but NOTHINg is better than adding 20mm $ in payroll for a guy that was sitting on someone;s IR. Mo taylors a decent player--does he do anything better than Othella Harrington--honestly? NO is he better than HasleM? No, but these guys make FRACTIONS of what taylor makes , they are FA+ wont command what Taylor will make in two years from the Knicks--in 5 YEARS elsewhere.

Would I take Ratliff to get randolph? Only if no draft picks were involved and they took JYD and Penny. There has to be a middle ground of payment--look at the league--when you ar TAKINg on HUGE salaries, that should be the asset in most cases by itself. You are relieving an organization of multi-millions. If not walk away and see how many clubs are willing to take on Zach and Ratliff--ill count them for you NONE.

Ny has been bartering against no one and driving up costs. perhaps if they had some reasonable financial sanity 50-60% of their fan base could watch the games!

We OVERPAID for Marbury--anyone can say what they want--but at the end of the day what was Pheonix going to do $$$$ wise if they couldnt move Marbury and Hardaway without the picks? Ill tell you, they would deal.

How have the Knicks benefitted from taking on Marbury and hardaway? they haven't--in fact they havent benefitted from ANY move where we ve taken the extra contract?

you know what? at some point, reasonable people understand this is not a good business plan and that we need to negotiate much tougher and be willing to walk away.

the NY Knicks are like a gambler at a blackjack table who goes for his credit card at every wrong turn without just walking away.
RIP Crushalot😞
edsonline
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4/7/2005  3:41 PM
You make some good points BRIGGS, but the other team wants to get something too. Just dumping contracts isn't always be enought to get a team to deal. Example - I'd rather get Zach without trading one of the late 1st rounders, but if Portland refuses without the pick, I'd trade it. I don't think they overpaid for Marbury. Phoenix could have kept him, benched Penny, put Johnson in the starting lineup and kept their lotto pick. Phx lineup - Marbury, Johnson, Marion, Amare, lotto pick. Damn good lineup. That post you started you're thread with, that writer is stupid. I don't care how bad someone thinks any GM is - anyone with sense knows no GM would trade expiring contracts, a lotto pick, and a late round 1st for Myles and Ratliff. That's why I keep saying whoever wrote that is stupid.
BRIGGS
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4/7/2005  4:00 PM
Posted by edsonline:

You make some good points BRIGGS, but the other team wants to get something too. Just dumping contracts isn't always be enought to get a team to deal. Example - I'd rather get Zach without trading one of the late 1st rounders, but if Portland refuses without the pick, I'd trade it. I don't think they overpaid for Marbury. Phoenix could have kept him, benched Penny, put Johnson in the starting lineup and kept their lotto pick. Phx lineup - Marbury, Johnson, Marion, Amare, lotto pick. Damn good lineup. That post you started you're thread with, that writer is stupid. I don't care how bad someone thinks any GM is - anyone with sense knows no GM would trade expiring contracts, a lotto pick, and a late round 1st for Myles and Ratliff. That's why I keep saying whoever wrote that is stupid.


OK, Ill give you Lampe and the 2004 pick, and thats it. You can take it or leave it. Im keeping Vujonic and the 2006 pick--that is my best and last. And i know to myself that if its not agreed upon, THIS will be the year where i go after the draft hard using my assets like Vujonic ward Mcdyess etc... to get 2-3 draft picks. How would the club look if we had Josh Smith Biendrins and Al Jefferson? Maybe we would have the sam record with soem different vets, but wed have one helluva lot of HOPE.
RIP Crushalot😞
edsonline
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4/7/2005  4:07 PM
You got balls BRIGGS. They could have caved, who knows? But if they didn't we would have kept sucking and had to find another package for a top-nothc player. We're a mess right now, but we have Marbury and assets. I'd rather have that than just being a mess and assets.
simrud
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4/7/2005  4:09 PM
I don't know if you noticed, but we keapt sucking after all the great IT trades, too.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Bonn1997
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4/7/2005  4:13 PM
Posted by simrud:

I don't know if you noticed, but we keapt sucking after all the great IT trades, too.
I don't know if y ou noticed, but it takes time to build a winning team
islesfan
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4/7/2005  11:42 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by simrud:

I don't know if you noticed, but we keapt sucking after all the great IT trades, too.
I don't know if y ou noticed, but it takes time to build a winning team

It seems that your new mantra is that this "rebuilding" is going to take time. But weren't you the one who kept bringing up the Knicks record since Isiah was hired and Marbury was traded for? At least before it completely blew up.

I guess when the record was near .500 it meant that Isiah was doing a good job and it was proof positive that things were getting better because his plan was working. But now the record doesn't prove anything and more time is needed before any type of judgement can be made on whether Isiah's plan is working or not.

So to summarize, when the record is "better" and the Knicks are making the playoffs, it's ok to judge Isiah's plan and say that things are much better. But when the record is what it currently is and the Knicks are playing like a bunch of heartless bums, it's too early to make judgements and much more time is needed.

Is that pretty much how it works? So what is the Knicks record with Isiah at the helm and with the self proclaimed "best PG in the NBA"?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
tkf
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4/8/2005  12:07 AM
Briggs you make some good points, at some point IT has to be willing to just walk away, just walk the heck away from a deal. I would have told the suns, lampe and the 2004 pick, like you said. and if they did not want that , then I would say good luck finding someone to take penny's money and give you all this cap relief in return.. in other wors "F" you!! Cap relief is a valuable commodity in the NBA, the knicks are willing to give teams the chance to clear their albatrosses off the books, give it to the knicks and go sign a player they want, I mean the knicks have to get back something more from now on. sometimes I say just do nothing, addition by subtraction, if we lose TT and penny's deal without making any trades, then I say good, we get 30 mil off the books and not make a mistake by taking on longer term deals for bum players. Now if some sucker is willing to trade us artest for a expiring deal, then we can talk...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
knicks1248
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4/8/2005  1:07 AM
Give Isiah more than 15 months! No GMs job is remotely near completion in a year.

you have goooooot to be kidding me, have you seen the Nets the last 3 season.Granted he didn't take over a salary cap catastrophy, but IT's moves have been ridiculously questionable to say the least, and down right stupid at best.. None have been realistically savy, smartor fiscally responsible.

You aquire gutless non defensive players who are more intersted in stats and espn highlights then they are of winning, and executing.
Just about all have come from a losing situation,with Rose being an exception.

The coaching saff ( which obviously ) are not on the same page.

Isiah's confused and it shows with every single move. His best move since he got here is ariza ( and if he doesn't comeback better then this season, that to may fall into the dumb move catagory as well.

ES
fishmike
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4/8/2005  8:19 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by simrud:

I don't know if you noticed, but we keapt sucking after all the great IT trades, too.
I don't know if y ou noticed, but it takes time to build a winning team

It seems that your new mantra is that this "rebuilding" is going to take time. But weren't you the one who kept bringing up the Knicks record since Isiah was hired and Marbury was traded for? At least before it completely blew up.

I guess when the record was near .500 it meant that Isiah was doing a good job and it was proof positive that things were getting better because his plan was working. But now the record doesn't prove anything and more time is needed before any type of judgement can be made on whether Isiah's plan is working or not.

So to summarize, when the record is "better" and the Knicks are making the playoffs, it's ok to judge Isiah's plan and say that things are much better. But when the record is what it currently is and the Knicks are playing like a bunch of heartless bums, it's too early to make judgements and much more time is needed.

Is that pretty much how it works? So what is the Knicks record with Isiah at the helm and with the self proclaimed "best PG in the NBA"?
Wow. Thats pretty fair. This season has sucked the koolaid right out of me. There are going to have to be some pretty impressive changes for me to pick us to win more than 35 games next year.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Marv
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4/8/2005  8:44 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

OK, Ill give you Lampe and the 2004 pick, and thats it. You can take it or leave it. Im keeping Vujonic and the 2006 pick--that is my best and last. And i know to myself that if its not agreed upon, THIS will be the year where i go after the draft hard using my assets like Vujonic ward Mcdyess etc... to get 2-3 draft picks. How would the club look if we had Josh Smith Biendrins and Al Jefferson? Maybe we would have the sam record with soem different vets, but wed have one helluva lot of HOPE.

I'm missing something. Didn't we have to include Dice, Ward, etc. to balance the salaries on that deal?
Bonn1997
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4/8/2005  12:20 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by simrud:

I don't know if you noticed, but we keapt sucking after all the great IT trades, too.
I don't know if y ou noticed, but it takes time to build a winning team

It seems that your new mantra is that this "rebuilding" is going to take time. But weren't you the one who kept bringing up the Knicks record since Isiah was hired and Marbury was traded for? At least before it completely blew up.

I guess when the record was near .500 it meant that Isiah was doing a good job and it was proof positive that things were getting better because his plan was working. But now the record doesn't prove anything and more time is needed before any type of judgement can be made on whether Isiah's plan is working or not.

So to summarize, when the record is "better" and the Knicks are making the playoffs, it's ok to judge Isiah's plan and say that things are much better. But when the record is what it currently is and the Knicks are playing like a bunch of heartless bums, it's too early to make judgements and much more time is needed.

Is that pretty much how it works? So what is the Knicks record with Isiah at the helm and with the self proclaimed "best PG in the NBA"?
I was excited the team was winning earlier on and lost sight of the fact that rebuilding takes a lot of time. A lot of people have still lost sight of that.
simrud
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4/8/2005  1:08 PM
Screw IT man, he is garbabge, what has he ever accomplished outside of being a player?

His track record is pathetic, I don't understand where you come up with this crap about how he is capable.

The guy is prolly not up to runnin a descount store, let alone a basketball franchise.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
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