Well, i've been accused of being a Robot...so I thought it would be a great idea to start this topic to make me seem to be a bit more...Humane. Seriously, I think it can go a long way towards allowing some if not all of us to air out our views on the Knicks organization and the GM (no need to discuss the players because most are not worthy of much discussion as per some posters .... play hard but lose baby) The hope is that topic will create a more even-keeled neutral thread. One that is not accusatory in nature so to speak.

This great city of ours is truly magnificent in it's scope and size. We all know that you can find most of anything if you look in the right place in this city so I won't bore you with that. From afar I always thought of NY City's sports teams as having an almost arrogant aire of invincibility (i.e. Yankees). Now I have to honestly say that up until the Knicks hired Isiah I was never a Knicks fan. I wanted Pat to beat Akeem but I have to admit I was pulling for Jordan and Pippen back during the battles of the 90's. At the time I was living in Atlanta and Dominique and the Hawks just could never quite get over the hump (hmm, that P-Funk song comes to mind.."I Got to get over the Hump") . Anyway, living here for some time now, i've come to accept that i'm a part of an aeons old grand process of people migrating to this great beast of a city. Since it looks like i'll own property within the week I guess i'm a true New Yorker now (well, my name is on a deed at the very least) Consequently, i've adopted the Knicks as my team and i'd like to see them do well.

Sorry about the long post but read on to part 2

[Edited by - Junkmein on 04/02/2005 22:16:55]

Now as to the GM. I look at Isiah and I can see why people very rarely fall on the middle of the fence with him. They either love him or hate him. I don't hate him (far far from it) and I don't love him (nope). However I respect the hell out of him. For some the Bird statement of the 80's forever colored him in a particular light that will never change for them. Some people are almost rabid in their disdain for him and his ilk. They feel he's an out and out racist or at the very least someone who is somehow or another always on the take (even to the point of calling him a snake or comparing him to a crooked double talking preacher..and the comments on his suits). Some others look at him as a self made person. They look at him as having god given talent with the drive to surpass several of his contemporaries that are regarded in much higher standing (on and off the court). Sort of a pull yourself up by your boot straps kind of person.

I don't know Isiah Thomas personally but my opinion of him is that he's an extremely loyal person that you do not want to get on the bad side of. I can imagine that this fella can hold a grudge for a lifetime (reminds me of my brother). Now i'm the kind of person that likes the underdog. When the Pistons played Magic, Kareem and the Lakers I was pulling for the Pistons all the way (and my favorite player at the time - Adrian Dantley). I always enjoyed when Detroit went to Boston and kicked Larry and the Celts butt. I was quite sad over Vinnie Johnson and AD smacking skulls to loose the first series to the Celtics and even more hurt when Isiah (of all people) threw that daggone ball to Bird (of all people ).

But you know, the fella learned from his mistakes and put the lessons to good use (2 rings). I can respect that because here we had a player who made catastophic mistakes but turned it around not with magic or superior size, but with sheer commitment, rabid loyalty and hard work to maximize his talent (it had to be that because he wasn't necessarily well-liked like his contemporaries).

I guess I just have a place for the underdog. Was I too through with Isiah and the Pistons when Isiah probably played a major part in having AD traded for Aguirre....Oh Yeah (guess he was more loyal to Aguirre than AD). Consequently, I also have to admit I was kinda pulling for the Blazers on the second go around (although I wanted to see Isiah cement his place in history with the 2nd trophy). As a result I was more than happy to see Jordan and the Jordanaires knock them off their throne (course the Bulls were underdogs then). All during this time the Knicks came off like they owned the place with a young Ewing. Of course I finally got a life and now it doesn't bother me quite as much (obviously not much of a life since i'm sitting here typing this)

Bottom line, when I see Isiah I can relate to that feeling of going against the grain. That feeling of taking on a task that most others feel you can't succeed at and could not succeed at themselves. Has he made some bonehead moves...I can agree with that although i'm not nearly as bothered about it as some others. Is it possible he might fail...of course...it ain't any fun if there aren't consequences. I don't know, I just remember looking at very few games while Layden was in charge. The scope and size of his task from a sports perspective, whether you like him or not, is unmatched. I admire that. You gotta have balls made of stone to take on a pressure cooker job of that kind.

Do I think that Isiah can be a SOB...No doubt. Would I love to see him Succeed in NYC with the Knicks...Absolutely.

Again, sorry about the long post. I'm only human



[Edited by - Junkmein on 04/02/2005 22:27:22]

He's GM of the Knicks - I want him to succeed. I think everyone does - the real question is who thinks he will?

I could care less about Isiah himself. I am not an Isiah fan. I am a Knicks fan. A ticker tape parade wont be for Isiah. It's for the Knicks. If Isiah hurts the Knicks any further, however, then he will feel my wrath. If he starts to bring them to success, I'll be singing his praises.

Bro if you want to check, go pull up last year's archies, and see that I was one of IT's biggest supporters when he first came here.

However his blundering ways have made me change my mind.

I really don't see anybody on this forum that has been against IT from the beginning, maybe Isles, but he hardly posts. And he turned out to be right btw.

To suggest that people who bother to post on a forum dedicated to a certain team, actually care about some random former baskebtall star turned GM over the team they are fans of is ludicrous.

Posted by Rich:

I want to see the Knicks have a plan that will enable them to have a legitimate shot a winning championships. Isiah is just pretending to do that.

If he finds a way to land us a legitimate young big man this year, then I think he's doing just that.

What would you have to see right now to believe he's doing it?

You know, Isiah's been hated and loved by half the people in this country at one time or another. I don't think he's too fazed by whether people are idolizing him or villifying him. He is one tough hombre. He's dissed Michael Jordan and Larry Bird, he's taken an elbow to the head from Karl Malone, gotten up, taken his 50 stitches and moved on. He's had people like Rick Mahorn and Bill Laimbeer follow him into any fight or battle he starts. I like the guy and really want him to win here, but as they say, this is New York, you gotta have a thick skin if you want to play it here. I bet if he read our threads, he'd say "Fair enough" to anything he read.

Posted by simrud:

I really don't see anybody on this forum that has been against IT from the beginning, maybe Isles, but he hardly posts. And he turned out to be right btw.

Interesting. So being that you're saying Islesfan was RIGHT, it is safe to assume that u have thrown in the towel on this current GM. So basically, if I am to understand that Islesfan was right and Isiah has already proven to be a terrible GM it is also safe to say that you are expecting a terrible offseason as well as a terrible draft. Is this correct. I'm asking this based on the fact that you are now sold on the fact that Isles was right.

As for people hating on this particular GM being ridiculous. Why is it that certain people bring up the CBA or any other thing that Isiah Thomas did before he evn stepped into his role as GM? Are you suggesting that I'm to believe that these particular people didn't harbor a dislike for Isiah before he got to the Knicks? Go ahead and check some posts from the past, and fairly recently, and you'll see that not only do SOME people talk about his job here but SOME people also elude to pre-Knick situations to try and prove their point about Isiah Thomas.

As for me, the jury is still out. I like some moves and dislike others. But if I were you I would NOT watch the draft nor pay attention to the offseason moves. After all, you've already decided that it is a lost cause. Isles turned out to be right the whole time. Game over....Isiah has lost. Let's sit around, bite our nails and wait until the next GM comes along. If it's 3 years from now then so be it huh?

Posted by simrud:

Bro if you want to check, go pull up last year's archies, and see that I was one of IT's biggest supporters when he first came here.

However his blundering ways have made me change my mind.

I have been on the site since Dec 03' although I didn't post until summer of 04'. I recall posters like you and Fishmike being very even-keeled with your support for Isiah as GM. I have to give credit to my number one poster of all time....Nalod... for causing me to come back for more entertaining reading (keep it up dude) I even remember when I realized that the notorious "Playa" from the NYKBasketball forum was actually the notorious "Playa 2" after you guys discussed it. So, i've been peeking in for awhile now. I use to peruse the NY Times forum (can be a hard and long read) and still peak over at the Realgm board. However, over time I just got more comfortable with this board. I know that Bonn and Diderotn have not been very critical at all over Isiah's moves (hmm, you think they're withholding judgement?). I also know that Briggs must have 10 screens or something hanging up in his home to keep up with all of these college players. I also know Briggs is inclined to post a complaint and deem the sky is falling when he get's frustrated It's all in good fun.

Btw Briggs, what's your take on Kwame these days?

There's never been a GM in the history of sports that hasn't made a few blunders and Isiah has undoubtedly made a few. I think it's fair to critique his moves but erroneous to pass overall judgement this early in the ball game. I guess for myself i'm inclined to give the fella quite a bit more time before I pass overall judgement on his whole tenure based mainly on the positive moves he's made (moves that also should be open to debate and critique). I want to see how he does after 2 or 3 drafts (1st draft turned out great). I simply say that if we truly want him to be successful for the sake of the team, then he should be given the same amount of time as other GM's. If he screws up he screws up. I won't loose any sleep over it. If he turns us into a "Contenda" (Brando voice), i'll sleep with a smile on my face

To suggest that people who bother to post on a forum dedicated to a certain team, actually care about some random former baskebtall star turned GM over the team they are fans of is ludicrous.

Hey fella, are you saying i'm....or my statement is..... Ludicrous.....that's a human emotion...right? That, that...that...must mean i'm not a...."I'M NOT A ROBOT" (hollering it out of my window as we speak in the same voice used in the movie "Network" ala - "i'm made as hell and i'm not gonna take it anymore") Thank you Sim, whew

[Edited by - Junkmein on 04/03/2005 03:58:10]

Posted by JUNKMEIN:

Posted by simrud:

Bro if you want to check, go pull up last year's archies, and see that I was one of IT's biggest supporters when he first came here.

However his blundering ways have made me change my mind.

I have been on the site since Dec 03' although I didn't post until summer of 04'. I recall posters like you and Fishmike being very even-keeled with your support for Isiah as GM. I have to give credit to my number one poster of all time....Nalod... for causing me to come back for more entertaining reading (keep it up dude) I even remember when I realized that the notorious "Playa" from the NYKBasketball forum was actually the notorious "Playa 2" after you guys discussed it. So, i've been peeking in for awhile now. I use to peruse the NY Times forum (can be a hard and long read) and still peak over at the Realgm board. However, over time I just got more comfortable with this board. I know that Bonn and Diderotn have not been very critical at all over Isiah's moves (hmm, you think they're withholding judgement?). I also know that Briggs must have 10 screens or something hanging up in his home to keep up with all of these college players. I also know Briggs is inclined to post a complaint and deem the sky is falling when he get's frustrated It's all in good fun.

Btw Briggs, what's your take on Kwame these days?

There's never been a GM in the history of sports that hasn't made a few blunders and Isiah has undoubtedly made a few. I think it's fair to critique his moves but erroneous to pass overall judgement this early in the ball game. I guess for myself i'm inclined to give the fella quite a bit more time before I pass overall judgement on his whole tenure based mainly on the positive moves he's made (moves that also should be open to debate and critique). I want to see how he does after 2 or 3 drafts (1st draft turned out great). I simply say that if we truly want him to be successful for the sake of the team, then he should be given the same amount of time as other GM's. If he screws up he screws up. I won't loose any sleep over it. If he turns us into a "Contenda" (Brando voice), i'll sleep with a smile on my face

To suggest that people who bother to post on a forum dedicated to a certain team, actually care about some random former baskebtall star turned GM over the team they are fans of is ludicrous.

Hey fella, are you saying i'm....or my statement is..... Ludicrous.....that's a human emotion...right? That, that...that...must mean i'm not a...."I'M NOT A ROBOT" (hollering it out of my window as we speak in the same voice used in the movie "Network" ala - "i'm made as hell and i'm not gonna take it anymore") Thank you Sim, whew

[Edited by - Junkmein on 04/03/2005 03:58:10]

I would trade him for KT, but I wouldnt give him more money than what KT is getting. We have to pay KT 7mm, so that money is going to be paid no matter what. if you are asking me would i give up a lottery pick for kwame, no.

There was a ton of hype and hope when Isiah came to town. Many posters pledged their undying support before he even did a thing. The buzz over the numerous changes he made was like a dream come true. It really did not really matter if the moves made any sense, but we got moves never-the-less, and it was fun talking about it, and putting our perspecitves on it.

Naturally some (including myself) thought there was more hype than substance and took a wait and see approach. Some really took this as being anti Isiah, as they were just so happy to see Layden gone, and Isiah represented a vision of success. The cynics could not imagine why Isiahs mere presence would have such a profound effect on every deal?

Fast forward to the present, Isiah mostly gets a lot of room here on these pages, and we all want him to succeed. Even a guy like Islesfans wants the team to do well, but won't stand and be spoon fed the kool aid just cuz the package says its all good. Kool Aid sucks by the way, but the ads and packageing really leads you to believe otherwise.

I can respect both sides of the arguement. I really can't buy into Isiah just cuz he is Isiah, but I root for his success to construct the right team and right this franchise! That is the ultimate goal for fans, but I question if management really shares in that quest?