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Allanfan20
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3/27/2005  2:54 AM
Briggs, I couldn't agree with you more. This is what we should have (And what I did) expect when we first signed Crawford. He just doesn't know how to play the game. f he ever learns he'll be really good, but he hasn't shown a ton of signs. It seems like we can attribute Herb for his lessened shot attempts. Not Jamal learning the game, b/c it seems like most of his shots are bad ones, and his passing, overall, is very erratic.

He may be more exciting at times and more athletic, but he couldn't hold a healthy Allan Houston's jockstrap.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
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Bonn1997
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3/27/2005  7:43 AM
Right now Crawford and Kurt give up more points than they score. Crawford might be average, but Kurt's definitely below average. You can very easily list 15 PFs who are better than he is (which makes him a below average starter in a league of 30 teams): In no particular order, Rasheed Wallace, Antoine Walker, Antoine Jamison, Drew Gooden, Jermaine O'Neal, Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, Amare Stoudemire, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Webber, Pau Gasol, Kenyon Martin, Kevin Garnett, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Zach Randolph, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Emeka Okafor. There are many others I'd add, but they'd be more controversial. So, I'll just stop with these 19.

At SG, I'd say the following players are currently better than Jamal (in no particular order). I'm talking about current performance, not upside. Dwayne Wade, Rip Hamilton, Michael Redd, Paul Pierce, Ben Gordon, Larry Hughes, Lebron James, Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Ray Allen, Michael Finley, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Bobby Simons. Then a lot of other players are on about the same level: Q-Rich, Jalen Rose, Cuttino Mobley, Ricky Davis, Jerry Stackhouse

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/27/2005 09:31:28]
djsunyc
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3/27/2005  7:47 AM
you can keep going with the SF and C positions as well.

from 1-5, we only have the advantage at the point most games. other than that, we are either on par or below average at every other position...hence the 10+ games under .500

and the sad thing is that our bench and starters are easily interchangeable and resulting in no difference.

but with that said, 3 players are on the upside - craw, ariza, sweets.

at the end of the day, after all the dust clears, that's pretty much the main difference between this roster and layden's.
Bonn1997
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3/27/2005  8:21 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

you can keep going with the SF and C positions as well.

from 1-5, we only have the advantage at the point most games. other than that, we are either on par or below average at every other position...hence the 10+ games under .500

and the sad thing is that our bench and starters are easily interchangeable and resulting in no difference.

but with that said, 3 players are on the upside - craw, ariza, sweets.

at the end of the day, after all the dust clears, that's pretty much the main difference between this roster and layden's.
Oh I agree. I listed the SGs and PFs because Allanfan and TMS thought I was crazy for commenting on the fact Kurt and Crawford are below average starters (Jamal being just slightly below average). The team is even more below average at SF and C. That's why I don't blame Marbury for the team being out of the playoffs. No star is going to carry a team with four below average starters to the playoffs. Even KG and Kobe can't do that as we're observing this year, and they have better supporting casts.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/27/2005 09:38:47]
Bonn1997
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3/27/2005  9:24 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by TMS:

i don't get how you're going to call Jamal Crawford a below average starter...just what do you consider average?

I am hoping that this player can hone his skills and MOVE in for a higher % of medium range shots and more driving. I think it hurts his game that he sits behind the 3 pt line so much. He needs to move much more without the ball and try to stay inside the 3 pt line for most of the game. He should watch how Rip Hamilton plays SG, because I think he can exel if he played more like him.

We invested heavily in him, this was isiah's crown jewel in the offseason. hes got a lot of talent, but he isnt a cerbreal player. Clyde was dead on tonight. why wasnt JC posting up 5-10 players? you know why? because he's a bit of a pssy, he doesnt like contact and he sits beyond the 3pt line to much.

when he grows some more cahones, when he is able to use his brain to think the game and put some heart into it, he could be a good player. until then he is an under acheiving inconsistent showboat type player
I'd agree with all of that. Another poster (I can't remember who) referred to getting Jamal as spending $8 mil/yr on a mid to late lottery pick. I'd agree with that and I think it's a good gamble.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/27/2005 09:25:14]
djsunyc
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3/27/2005  9:42 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I'd agree with all of that. Another poster (I can't remember who) referred to getting Jamal as spending $8 mil/yr on a mid to late lottery pick. I'd agree with that and I think it's a good gamble.

twas me. it's a TWISTED economic model and way to do business but yes, getting craw for $55 mil + $28 in jyd was like buying a late lottery pick. those are the unorthadox methods isiah was talking about.
Bonn1997
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3/27/2005  9:52 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bonn1997:

I'd agree with all of that. Another poster (I can't remember who) referred to getting Jamal as spending $8 mil/yr on a mid to late lottery pick. I'd agree with that and I think it's a good gamble.

twas me. it's a TWISTED economic model and way to do business but yes, getting craw for $55 mil + $28 in jyd was like buying a late lottery pick. those are the unorthadox methods isiah was talking about.
Actually, the whole trade was a net increase of about $64 mil. We spent $56 mil on Crawford and $18 mil (not 28) on JYD and gave up $10 mil in salary.

But I agree with your comment about it being $64 mil on a mid to late lottery pick. I think that's a good way of looking at it.
TMS
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3/27/2005  10:08 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

No star is going to carry a team with four below average starters to the playoffs. Even KG and Kobe can't do that as we're observing this year, and they have better supporting casts.

2000-2001 Sixers roster that made the Finals:

Allen Iverson
Rodney Buford
George Lynch
Matt Gieger
Tyrone Hill
Aaron McKie
Eric Snow
Kevin Ollie
Todd MacCulluch
Jumaine Jones
Pepe Sanchez
Raja Bell
Dikembe Mutombo (Traded from Atlanta at the trade deadline for Theo Ratliff, Nzar Mohammad, Toni Kukoc & Pepe Sanchez)

Speedy Claxton (injured reserve)

so if Kobe can't take a team with Lamar Odom to the playoffs & KG can't take 1 with Spree, Cassell & Wally, what does that say about AI who took a team w/only a 36 year old Dikembe Mutombo who was putting up similar #'s to KT is this year at the time to the NBA Finals? it can be done if you have the right mix of players who play off of 1 another well...this team has good role players, but they don't play defense on a consistent basis, bottomline...this Knicks team EASILY could have made the playoffs this year, had they not had that horrible run in January after Marbury proclaimed himself the "best PG in the NBA".

[Edited by - TMS on 03/27/2005 10:09:41]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
gunsnewing
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3/27/2005  10:17 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

No star is going to carry a team with four below average starters to the playoffs. Even KG and Kobe can't do that as we're observing this year, and they have better supporting casts.

2000-2001 Sixers roster that made the Finals:

Allen Iverson
Rodney Buford
George Lynch
Matt Gieger
Tyrone Hill
Aaron McKie
Eric Snow
Kevin Ollie
Todd MacCulluch
Jumaine Jones
Pepe Sanchez
Raja Bell
Dikembe Mutombo (Traded from Atlanta at the trade deadline for Theo Ratliff, Nzar Mohammad, Toni Kukoc & Pepe Sanchez)

Speedy Claxton (injured reserve)

so if Kobe can't take a team with Lamar Odom to the playoffs & KG can't take 1 with Spree, Cassell & Wally, what does that say about AI who took a team w/only a 36 year old Dikembe Mutombo who was putting up similar #'s to KT is this year at the time to the NBA Finals? it can be done if you have the right mix of players who play off of 1 another well...this team has good role players, but they don't play defense on a consistent basis, bottomline...this Knicks team EASILY could have made the playoffs this year, had they not had that horrible run in January after Marbury proclaimed himself the "best PG in the NBA".

[Edited by - TMS on 03/27/2005 10:09:41]

that also had a lot to do with Larry Brown. Actually it was all Larry Brown. How has Iverson done without him?
TMS
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3/27/2005  10:38 AM
that also had a lot to do with Larry Brown. Actually it was all Larry Brown. How has Iverson done without him?

so let me get this straight...Larry Brown was singlehandedly wholeheartedly responsible for the Sixers making the playoffs 5 straight years & an NBA Finals during that run, eh? Wow, that guy is amazing...i guess even if the Sixers had Speedy Claxton running the point all those years instead of AI they would have achieved the same things in your mind? is this even worth commenting further on?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
gunsnewing
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3/27/2005  10:50 AM
I was being sarcastic but it's obvious larry brown had a lot to do with it. so in essense one star can't make it to the championship on his own because Larry Brown in a sense is a star. Now if the Sixers had the players Detroit has then they would've problably beaten the Lakers which would've been extremely hard since Shaq was in his prime
Marv
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3/27/2005  11:13 AM
Uh oh. We're having the AI argument again. Seems to me he had the right role players around him and they all clicked well in their roles that year.
gunsnewing
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3/27/2005  11:16 AM
Posted by Marv:

Uh oh. We're having the AI argument again. Seems to me he had the right role players around him and they all clicked well in their roles that year.

yep incredily well every single one of them had a role but it still has a lot to do with Larry Brown. Him winning it all in Detroit proved that to me
Bobby
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3/27/2005  11:42 AM
larry brown winning it all in detroit may have been just the icing on the cake. that detroit team was a rick carlisle disciplined team. lets see if larry can duplicate last year's feat. one other thing, starbury making those comments back in jan. should have been a signal for teammates to start playing the best ball in a weak division. instead, all eyes were on star. reality?.....ny fails to play team ball. one thing i will say about star....his homecoming is no way near another bk most favorite son...bernard king
"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
Allanfan20
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3/27/2005  12:06 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Right now Crawford and Kurt give up more points than they score. Crawford might be average, but Kurt's definitely below average. You can very easily list 15 PFs who are better than he is (which makes him a below average starter in a league of 30 teams): In no particular order, Rasheed Wallace, Antoine Walker, Antoine Jamison, Drew Gooden, Jermaine O'Neal, Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, Amare Stoudemire, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Webber, Pau Gasol, Kenyon Martin, Kevin Garnett, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Zach Randolph, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Emeka Okafor. There are many others I'd add, but they'd be more controversial. So, I'll just stop with these 19.

At SG, I'd say the following players are currently better than Jamal (in no particular order). I'm talking about current performance, not upside. Dwayne Wade, Rip Hamilton, Michael Redd, Paul Pierce, Ben Gordon, Larry Hughes, Lebron James, Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Ray Allen, Michael Finley, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Bobby Simons. Then a lot of other players are on about the same level: Q-Rich, Jalen Rose, Cuttino Mobley, Ricky Davis, Jerry Stackhouse

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/27/2005 09:31:28]

OK Bonn Bonn, I'll give you that 100%, but all I'm saying is that KT and Jamal are solid players, and TT has been playing decently lately. Not real good, but decently. You're acting like Marbury has absolutely nobody, when in fact he is. Just remember, we expected this team to win 45ish games this year. They aren't near that mark. Marbury doesn't get a free pass, b/c his defense is horrific. His offense is fine, but defense and leadership IS NOT. Neither do the rest of the guys. Nobody on the team is untradable, with a record this low. It's just like all the other seasons.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Allanfan20
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3/27/2005  12:08 PM
That year, it was mainly Iverson, the defense of the 76ers, and a decent supporting cast. Plus, Deke was still a defensive force. Brown was good too, but he wasn't the 76ers. Iverson was the main reason for their finals appearance.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
rvhoss
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3/27/2005  12:09 PM
I think we all have to remember...that 45 game prediction was on the premise that we would have H20 for WAAAY more games than we did.

With H20, we were a 500 team...maybe better.

Without H20, we are what we are.
all kool aid all the time.
gunsnewing
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3/27/2005  12:23 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

That year, it was mainly Iverson, the defense of the 76ers, and a decent supporting cast. Plus, Deke was still a defensive force. Brown was good too, but he wasn't the 76ers. Iverson was the main reason for their finals appearance.

when I said Larry Brown was the main reason I was being sarcastic. AI is obviously the biggest reason! the point I was making wss that Larry Brown had a lot to do with getting that cast toplay together as a team. like he did in detroit
Bonn1997
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3/27/2005  1:02 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

No star is going to carry a team with four below average starters to the playoffs. Even KG and Kobe can't do that as we're observing this year, and they have better supporting casts.

2000-2001 Sixers roster that made the Finals:

Allen Iverson
Rodney Buford
George Lynch
Matt Gieger
Tyrone Hill
Aaron McKie
Eric Snow
Kevin Ollie
Todd MacCulluch
Jumaine Jones
Pepe Sanchez
Raja Bell
Dikembe Mutombo (Traded from Atlanta at the trade deadline for Theo Ratliff, Nzar Mohammad, Toni Kukoc & Pepe Sanchez)

Speedy Claxton (injured reserve)

so if Kobe can't take a team with Lamar Odom to the playoffs & KG can't take 1 with Spree, Cassell & Wally, what does that say about AI who took a team w/only a 36 year old Dikembe Mutombo who was putting up similar #'s to KT is this year at the time to the NBA Finals? it can be done if you have the right mix of players who play off of 1 another well...this team has good role players, but they don't play defense on a consistent basis, bottomline...this Knicks team EASILY could have made the playoffs this year, had they not had that horrible run in January after Marbury proclaimed himself the "best PG in the NBA".

[Edited by - TMS on 03/27/2005 10:09:41]
First, the east was so weak then. That team wouldn't make it past the 2nd round now. But more importantly, there's no way Mutombo was a below average center. He was a multiple defensive player of the year still in his prime and averaging double doubles with a lot of blocks.
Bonn1997
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3/27/2005  1:03 PM
Posted by Marv:

Uh oh. We're having the AI argument again. Seems to me he had the right role players around him and they all clicked well in their roles that year.
God, TMS just won't let it go I guess!
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