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Gee, The Haterade Trade Really Sucked Didn't It?
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Bonn1997
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3/9/2005  10:15 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Nobody will want to play a New York Knicks team with momentum in April
and nobody will have to play them in June because we will praying our 1.8% chance at winnnig the lottery comes through.

Is Malik Rose bringing us a title? Did you notice Ariza and Sweetney's minutes last night? Yes... this is reminiscent of the last era. Rather than recognizing we have no chance at winning a championship and about a 1-100 chance of even making the playoffs we sit young players and ride our 30 year old vets en route to a 27 win season, or god forbid we make it as we did last year a 4 game sweep in embarrassing fashion at the hands of Shaq, Wade and the Heat.

Am I drinking haterade or am I tired of seeing the same pattern with new management? Sorry, I would just rather have the 5th pick and a shot at a guy like Wade rather than a 10 pick and another guy like Mike Sweetney.

Love Mike, but the gap in talent isnt up for debate. I'm not asking for 6 years of tanking like the Bulls. Just once recognize a lost season and turn it into an advantage by gaining leverage with draft position.
Fish, did you even watch the game yesterday? You know that Sweetney is starting and that the only reason his minutes were limited was foul trouble, right?

Is Malik Rose bringing us a title?
Is Nazy? The answer is no to both, but at least now we have two first round picks

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/09/2005 10:17:00]
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rvhoss
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3/9/2005  10:18 AM
Posted by fishmike:

look.. lets see the Knicks beat two real teams at home in the Heat and Sonics. Both are winnable games. I was at the Heat game we pushed to OT and the Sonics play Euro ball and some fundamental perimeter D and boxing out and the Knicks will be in the game.

sounds like you think they have a chance.
all kool aid all the time.
djsunyc
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3/9/2005  10:24 AM
we may be catching seattle on a down cycle this season (a blow out at home vs. the suns and another loss at home vs. houston)

they have one more home game vs. chicago then a travel day, then us.

miami is 16-3, i believe, over the past 19 games.

two huge tests, but then the rest of the month is against playoff teams except 3 games (@atl, @por and @gs)
djsunyc
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3/9/2005  10:25 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

You know that Sweetney is starting and that the only reason his minutes were limited was foul trouble, right?

i would love for herb to keep giving him the minutes so he can LEARN to play through it. imo, he needs to be on the floor as much as possible.
fishmike
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3/9/2005  10:32 AM
I saw Sweetney never get back in the game after his 4th foul. I saw Ariza play 6 minutes and Penny play 25. I saw Mo Taylor have 0 rebounds and 5 fouls in 8 minutes (did someone add that to the Mo Taylor appreciation thread?). I also saw Jamison sitting on the bench.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
rvhoss
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3/9/2005  10:39 AM
Posted by fishmike:

I saw Sweetney never get back in the game after his 4th foul. I saw Ariza play 6 minutes and Penny play 25. I saw Mo Taylor have 0 rebounds and 5 fouls in 8 minutes (did someone add that to the Mo Taylor appreciation thread?). I also saw Jamison sitting on the bench.

I was hoping nobody noticed the Mo T stat line But it looks like the Wiz came in intent on stopping our low post game...luckily, we have marbs and craw and Penny to switch things up. (penny had a productive 25 minutes, 12 points/4 boards and 2 for 3 from downtown)

Looks like all of our PF's had 4 PF's (lol, I crack myself up) and Rose had 3 fouls.

Can't wait until the next game.
all kool aid all the time.
Pharzeone
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3/9/2005  10:50 AM
Posted by MS:

Again you can keep drinking the koolaide or you can really evaluate the trade, it is unecessary the knicks are playing good ball but they beat one team over 500, and the wizards were missing their best player, and the sixers were missing three guys to our one in our rotation, they look good and the streak is nice

But facts are we are 8 games under 500, isiah has taken on millions of dollars in contracts that are no movable and it just proves how badly this team underachieves........

And if we fall short of the playoffs and we are picking 12 are opposed to six, it only magnifies the stupidity of this trade....
holy crap. Now it is Isiah's fault that the player he brought most in these guys to play around last year has only play in 21 games since last year. I guess it's fault that this same player makes the most money on this team but will continue to do so for 2 more years, whether he steps out on the court or not (and for the record for the millionth time, he is clear to play, it is his choice not to). Let me ask what are you to do, when you have an owner who told you last year that rebuilding was not an option. You had unmoveable contracts before you arrive. LOL, Luc Longley just came off the bleeping books last year. I think I saw this guy in a Knick uniform like 5 years ago for a game or 2. Shandon Anderson salary will increase next year too, which is laughable. To be honest, the guys that Isiah got either were better than the ones that were here before he arrive or were used to get picks. Come on, Nazr landed you 2 round picks, i don't care where they are in 1st round. Many people last year were saying that Doleac was better.
I may be drinking the kool-aid but that hater-aid is making your perception of the facts cloudy.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
fishmike
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3/9/2005  11:08 AM
so what? This is Houston's fault now?

On one hand you guys talk about how super duper expiring deals are, so the best we could get for Nazr is Malik Rose? The #1's dont mean anything. Next years draft will be so watered down its not even funny. As for this year's if you offerend $3mm to every team picking from 20-30 I can guarentee we could have AT LEAST 2 of those 10 #1s, and it still would have been cheaper than paying Rose for 4 year. Whats even more is you would still have Nazr's expiring deal to use in a sign and trade for a guy like Kwame or Gadzurich, Swift or whoever.

This is what I mean by effectively using assets. Bottom line is in Nazr Isiah could have and should have done better. This is a lame trade. I like Malik but once again we overpaid for what we got back.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
MS
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3/9/2005  11:14 AM
I must say terrible post....getting a couple of late first round picks is not tough because teams want to manage the cap, every trade Isiah has made has been a salary dump in the opposing teams favor.....

He has now locked them into mediocre ball the rest of the way.....We could have just move Naz out of the starting line-up...

Whose minutes are hurt, Sweeteny and Ariza, who are supposed to lead us into the next generation, those two, so why would you further hinder their development, in order to win a couple of more games, and push back your quality of player......

Dwane Wade was the fifth pick a couple of years ago, and we didn't have a chance to get him because we fell just short as usual....

Isiah is a snake who has no plan, he has failed at everything he has done outside of a pistons uniform, he is just one stupid move away from giving us the Yankee payroll.....

Did we like Crawford? Sure but did we need him at 55 million with Jerome Williams I don't think so, this season is a failure even if the team makes the playoffs, but when you go and add two more contracts you keep killing the franchise......

Everything was on the table to rebuild, Pietrus could have been had for the exception at the end of the year, they could have move Naz in a sign and trade with perhaps ariza to get a player like stro swift, warrick is there in the draft, and you don't have contracts long term, Mo, Rose, Williams, Crawford....I think Jamaal can be a good player in the league but not at that money....

Sometimes its better to wait instead of making rush moves...Remember Isiah was seconds away from locking us into Dampier for 7 seasons as well.....

And you can rebuild in ny as long as the players give their all and play with passion
Bonn1997
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3/9/2005  11:37 AM
Posted by fishmike:

so what? This is Houston's fault now?

On one hand you guys talk about how super duper expiring deals are, so the best we could get for Nazr is Malik Rose? The #1's dont mean anything. Next years draft will be so watered down its not even funny. As for this year's if you offerend $3mm to every team picking from 20-30 I can guarentee we could have AT LEAST 2 of those 10 #1s, and it still would have been cheaper than paying Rose for 4 year. Whats even more is you would still have Nazr's expiring deal to use in a sign and trade for a guy like Kwame or Gadzurich, Swift or whoever.

This is what I mean by effectively using assets. Bottom line is in Nazr Isiah could have and should have done better. This is a lame trade. I like Malik but once again we overpaid for what we got back.
My guess is that Isiah's idea is to be able to *trade* our draft picks on draft night, not to acquire picks on draft night. My guess is he wants to pull off another Marbury type of trade.
eViL
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3/9/2005  12:03 PM
Posted by fishmike:

On one hand you guys talk about how super duper expiring deals are, so the best we could get for Nazr is Malik Rose? The #1's dont mean anything. Next years draft will be so watered down its not even funny. As for this year's if you offerend $3mm to every team picking from 20-30 I can guarentee we could have AT LEAST 2 of those 10 #1s, and it still would have been cheaper than paying Rose for 4 year. Whats even more is you would still have Nazr's expiring deal to use in a sign and trade for a guy like Kwame or Gadzurich, Swift or whoever.

This is what I mean by effectively using assets. Bottom line is in Nazr Isiah could have and should have done better. This is a lame trade. I like Malik but once again we overpaid for what we got back.

You're certain about this? Based on what?
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fishmike
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3/9/2005  12:18 PM
based on history. Many clubs trade their late #1s every year for nothing or cash considerations because they dont like a player enough to commit to giving them a 3 year contract.

Sometimes doing nothing is ok also... every team knows Isiah will panick and make a rush move if they wait long enough.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
eViL
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3/9/2005  12:39 PM
I will give it to you that last year many teams were trying to sell their picks, but we all knew last year's draft wasn't considered very strong - was it? This year's draft is considered to be super deep, will picks be as available? I would say no, but that's just my guess. Your guess is as good as mine.

Can we assume that Isiah and his team of scouts and assistants are doing research into what can be had for the assets that we were holding? Or are we assuming that Isiah is blindly pulling the trigger on deals without first consulting the research that all of us posters on this message board easily do when concocting fantasy trade scenarios? I mean, if you think it's plain and simple that we could have had Swift / Kwame / Gadzuric using our the assets that we once had - why isn't this so plain and simple to him? He must be plain stupid.
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TLover
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3/9/2005  1:15 PM
Folks I thinks there is more to this Mo Taylor trade that meets the eye.
Yes teams do sell their 1st round picks but they usually want something else in return besides money.

That is why I think there was a wink and handshake between the Knicks and Rockets that the Rockets will make the pick for the Knicks and trade his rights for 3 million.

Van Gundy never cared much for rookies so I could see this happening.

The Knicks traded 2 expiring contracts next season and a 2nd rounder next year for a guy with 2 years left on his contract who wasn't even on the active roster.

The Rockets traded their 1st Rounder last year so that can't trade this year's, but what they can do is draft a player the Knicks want - then trade his rights.

This is a way to circumvent the collective bargaining agreement, and if so then I love this trade. Not only do we get another 1st rounder but Mo Taylor has shown to be a very good offensive player who can come off the bench and give us points.

Also Mo Tayer comes off the books the same year as Houston and Shandon Anderson.
fishmike
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3/9/2005  1:31 PM
Posted by TLover:
That is why I think there was a wink and handshake between the Knicks and Rockets that the Rockets will make the pick for the Knicks and trade his rights for 3 million.
right along with the wing Isiah has with Lebron to come and play in NY for the MLE.

Give me a break... please. If this is the best spin on a bad deal you can give me save it.

Wake up people. Isiah has done some ok things but we cant afford to have him make bad trades. This guy isnt some infallible wizard. He's already made mistakes, lets just hope they dont set us back as far as the last guy.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
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3/9/2005  1:32 PM
Posted by fishmike:

so what? This is Houston's fault now?

On one hand you guys talk about how super duper expiring deals are, so the best we could get for Nazr is Malik Rose? The #1's dont mean anything. Next years draft will be so watered down its not even funny. As for this year's if you offerend $3mm to every team picking from 20-30 I can guarentee we could have AT LEAST 2 of those 10 #1s, and it still would have been cheaper than paying Rose for 4 year. Whats even more is you would still have Nazr's expiring deal to use in a sign and trade for a guy like Kwame or Gadzurich, Swift or whoever.

This is what I mean by effectively using assets. Bottom line is in Nazr Isiah could have and should have done better. This is a lame trade. I like Malik but once again we overpaid for what we got back.
To answer your first question, yes Houston is part to blame for this whole mess. LOL, everything Houston has done as been against what Knick brass and doctors wanted him to do. This goes back to before before Isiah.
Secondly, let me get this straight. You have a problem with picking up a late 1st round pick for Nazr but you have no problem with using him to get Kwame Brown. Sort of blows up your theory of the need to get a high lottery pick. I wouldn't take Brown with a second round pick. I know Gilbert Arenas has to be laughing his a@@ off everytime he sees Brown on the court or in practice. It's not always where you pick in the draft but who's doing the picking.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
MS
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3/9/2005  1:51 PM
I see Bonn a fan that is extremely confused and possess very little knowledge of the NBA

I see a Knick fan that doesn’t have a clue that Isiah Thomas has bent this team over, and we are about to get screwed….

Big deal the 27-29 picks in the draft we should congratulate on bumbling, lying GM for his inventive, creative, and unconventional way of doing things. Dumping expiring deals and buying out players while banishing everyone that “self proclaimed” doesn’t like, not to mention taking back players who have an mo for not playing defense: Crawford, Marbury, TT, Mo Taylor. We should thank him because without Marbury we would have never overachieved last year in the playoffs…..

The great talent evaluator that Zeke is in the draft….Marbury is a top 10 talent in this league, when you have a chance to get a player like that you get him…..Only behind, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett, Tracy, Wade, Shaq, Iverson, Vince Carter, Dirk, Ray Allen, Kidd, Nash, Amare, and 5 others at least
TLover
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3/9/2005  2:04 PM
That's right FishNets your word counts, everyone else is wrong.

Nobody knows what will truly happen in the off-season, but if Isiah brings in the right players for this franchise, please don't jump on the bandwagon.
Then again, I'm sure you'll put a negative spin on it anyway.
fishmike
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3/9/2005  2:22 PM
its not a negative spin... this is what cracks me up. I say I like Marbury and Crawford and the Jackie Butler move was smart and I'm ok... I can drink from your fountain. But I say trading for 2 more PFs with bad contracts that have already seen their best days when we already had 3 is a bad move and I'm a negative hater.

Sorry if I make observations that dispell some illusion of Isiah you have created. The guy has been painfully average since being here.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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3/9/2005  4:26 PM
Isiah brings in the right players for this franchise, please don't jump on the bandwagon.
That's good advice. We'll have all these threads to see who was backing Isiah from the beginning anyway
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