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djsunyc
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3/7/2005  4:36 PM
http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

spilled milk...i know...but it's still DISGUSTING.
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Allanfan20
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3/7/2005  4:47 PM
Spilled milk that expire 5 years ago with rats drinking it. Those salaries are a lot worse than I thought. Really, Sweetney is the only good thing, in terms of the salary cap. Isiah better have a plan for Ariza.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
tomverve
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3/7/2005  5:04 PM
Notice that Allan Houston and Shandon combine for about $30mm of the salary cap total for the next two seasons. Given that these two are utterly unmoveable contracts belonging to players who essentially make no contribution to the team, it might be useful to evaluate the cap without considering these two onerous contracts. If we ignore them, then NY is essentially an $80mm team-- ie a team with $80mm of active assets-- still very high, but not nearly as bad, and pretty close to the $70mm someone (Briggs?) mentioned as an acceptable cap ceiling.

Sweetney is not just 'acceptable'-- Sweetney is a bargain, as he's still on his rookie contract. Other acceptable contracts (dollars comensurate with player value, as determined by the market) that I see here are Marbury, Kurt Thomas, Jamal Crawford, Trevor Ariza, Bruno Sundoz, and Jackie Butler. (The first three are on the pricey side, but certainly within the 'acceptable' range, as opposed to unacceptable.) Two of our three worst contracts are set to expire after next season, and by the following season, a whopping six of our worst contracts will be officially off the books (TT and Penny from 06, and also Houston, Shandon, Taylor, and effectively JYD due to his team option).

So our cap situation as of today, assuming no further trades, is actually not that bad. Of course, we will need to re-sign Sweetney and Ariza, and Isiah will use some of those expiring contracts in trades. But if Isiah is judicious, we should continue to see a dramatic raise in the roster's talent-to-dollar ratio, if not overall dollar level. The better the talent-to-dollar ratio, the more roster flexibility.
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crzymdups
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3/7/2005  5:23 PM
Posted by tomverve:

Notice that Allan Houston and Shandon combine for about $30mm of the salary cap total for the next two seasons. Given that these two are utterly unmoveable contracts belonging to players who essentially make no contribution to the team, it might be useful to evaluate the cap without considering these two onerous contracts. If we ignore them, then NY is essentially an $80mm team-- ie a team with $80mm of active assets-- still very high, but not nearly as bad, and pretty close to the $70mm someone (Briggs?) mentioned as an acceptable cap ceiling.

Sweetney is not just 'acceptable'-- Sweetney is a bargain, as he's still on his rookie contract. Other acceptable contracts (dollars comensurate with player value, as determined by the market) that I see here are Marbury, Kurt Thomas, Jamal Crawford, Trevor Ariza, Bruno Sundoz, and Jackie Butler. (The first three are on the pricey side, but certainly within the 'acceptable' range, as opposed to unacceptable.) Two of our three worst contracts are set to expire after next season, and by the following season, a whopping six of our worst contracts will be officially off the books (TT and Penny from 06, and also Houston, Shandon, Taylor, and effectively JYD due to his team option).

So our cap situation as of today, assuming no further trades, is actually not that bad. Of course, we will need to re-sign Sweetney and Ariza, and Isiah will use some of those expiring contracts in trades. But if Isiah is judicious, we should continue to see a dramatic raise in the roster's talent-to-dollar ratio, if not overall dollar level. The better the talent-to-dollar ratio, the more roster flexibility.

I agree with this.

EDIT: whether it actually gets better or Isiah makes it worse this summer by maxing out Eddy Curry remains to be seen.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 03/07/2005 17:24:06]
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Bonn1997
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3/7/2005  5:28 PM
The page strikes me as being very neutral--neither good nor bad--since it's not my money. It means about as much to me as would the salary of any other organization's (e.g., Blockbuster, Dominos Pizza) payroll means to me.
Kwazimodal
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3/7/2005  5:50 PM
I agree about there being some light in a couple of years if Isiah can keep his hands off the phones when another overpaid,redundant, vet becomes available.
djsunyc
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3/7/2005  5:56 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

The page strikes me as being very neutral--neither good nor bad--since it's not my money. It means about as much to me as would the salary of any other organization's (e.g., Blockbuster, Dominos Pizza) payroll means to me.

your utter dismissal of our salary situation is mindboggling. don't you see anything bad about it? are there zero positives trying to get into cap manageability any time within the next 3 years? we're already biting into the 07/08 season and that doesn't include what's going to happen this offseason. just b/c it's not your money doesn't mean it doesn't effect the team and it's chances on trying to improve.
Bonn1997
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3/7/2005  6:11 PM
are there zero positives trying to get into cap manageability any time within the next 3 years?
Well, I've never been convinced of any. But you can list some advantages and I'll give my opinion of them. Maybe you have some advantages that I've never thought of before.
Allanfan20
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3/7/2005  6:56 PM
It's not so much the team salary. But it's all the bad contracts of each player making them untradable besides in their walk years, when teams will be willing to give us their outcasts. Nazr was a great contract b/c he could have netted us something valuable in return, and he partially did, but we could have done much better. Trading TT or Penny only means we have to take back more horrible contracts and a GOOD player also with a bad contract and many flaws. Also, we have 2 good contracts. Sweetney and Ariza. That's it, and it's in our best interest to keep them. So guess what? We CANNOT trade for young cheap players unless we trade our draft pick and only our draft pick for them. MOST teams wont be willing to do that b/c they want to stick with these young guys, just like how we want to stick with Ariza and Sweetney. That's why cap flexibility is important.

This is why we basically HAVE to build our team through the draft and MLE signings.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
EnySpree
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3/7/2005  7:12 PM
Isiah might be better off keeping Timmy around especially if he can maintain his current play. Timmy just had the worst 1st half of hsi career. He might be back to normal. Keeping Timmy might be great until his contract is up.

Isiah might be better off waiving Penny next season.

Isiah got two draft picks this year and next and he has gotten some decent players to plug holes for now. I think KT can be traded. I think he will be traded....maybe in a packedge for Big Z.

The only people worried about salary is the media.

Houston alone takes up 20 mill......the Knicks won't be ok till his salary melts off.

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Masterplan
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3/7/2005  7:34 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
are there zero positives trying to get into cap manageability any time within the next 3 years?
Well, I've never been convinced of any. But you can list some advantages and I'll give my opinion of them. Maybe you have some advantages that I've never thought of before.

we have 9 players making $5 mil or more. the only (current) players making less than that are sweetney, sundov, ariza, and butler. if we want to trade for a player on a rookie contract, for example, one of those guys has to go, and we don't particularly want to lose any of them (except sundov, who has only marginally above zero value). or, we take back more crappy contracts so that we can move one of our expiring-in-a-few-seasons deals. that's one downside to having our roster full of players making more than the MLE.

cap manageability does not mean getting under the cap. it means not paying 2/3 of our players at a level that no one else wants them, having contracts of all sizes so we can put packages together for players besides the overpriced vets we have been picking up. it's NY, we can pay an extra max contract or two. but we should also be able to attract talent in proportion to what they're making moneywise.

if...
penny were making $3 mil instead of $14
TT were making $7 mil instead of $13
mo taylor were making $5 mil instead of $9
JYD and rose were signed to shorter contracts
and houston (assuming he never plays again), shandon, and amaechi disappeared from that picture,
we would have a team with a high but decent salary number, full of tradeable assets. we can get the talents of all those guys i just mentioned for the around the money i cited, or for rookie contracts, MLE/LLE, or even vet's minimum or young FA's (think butler, dermarr johnson).

so, instead of trading them as expiring contracts for guys with longer deals and only marginal talent upgrades, what if we let them expire and resigned them at the money I mentioned, or, more likely, signed or drafted comparable replacements at market value? all of a sudden, our talented but unbalanced roster becomes movable for quality players who contribute to our needs and our identity. lowering our payroll is not an end to itself, but a means of creating a flexible, balanced roster. peace.


[Edited by - Masterplan on 03/07/2005 19:36:10]
Bonn1997
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3/7/2005  11:18 PM
we have 9 players making $5 mil or more. the only (current) players making less than that are sweetney, sundov, ariza, and butler. if we want to trade for a player on a rookie contract, for example, one of those guys has to go
No, just other players have to be included from the team we're trading with in order to make the salaries match.

Killa4luv
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3/7/2005  11:32 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

Isiah might be better off keeping Timmy around especially if he can maintain his current play. Timmy just had the worst 1st half of hsi career. He might be back to normal. Keeping Timmy might be great until his contract is up.
I think if he continues his play like this we should resign him to a reasonable contract or do a sign and trade for something we need. He's playing so damn well right now that I think you have to evaluate what you could realistically get for him. Will that player be better for us than he is? Its something to think about.
Isiah might be better off waiving Penny next season.
Depends on what else happens. But if he makes other good moves, that could definitely be one of the best moves to make with Penny. Not waive but let his contract expire, we still are kinda weak at the 2.
Isiah got two draft picks this year and next and he has gotten some decent players to plug holes for now. I think KT can be traded. I think he will be traded....maybe in a packedge for Big Z.
if we get big Z, Isaih will have fulfilled the prophecy. I don't think Cleveland lets him go though, they know they need him and KT isn't gonna get it, he'll make much more than that.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 03/07/2005 23:34:39]
Bonn1997
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3/7/2005  11:37 PM
Big Z is a good, 7'3", all-star center. I think it would take A LOT to get him--much more than most people are making it sound like, especially because Lebron has supported him publicly so much.
Nalod
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3/7/2005  11:40 PM
KT for his production is a good value.

Imagine, Marbs getting 20mil! I hope he can stay healty!

HIs will be very hard to move one day!
djsunyc
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3/8/2005  12:33 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
we have 9 players making $5 mil or more. the only (current) players making less than that are sweetney, sundov, ariza, and butler. if we want to trade for a player on a rookie contract, for example, one of those guys has to go
No, just other players have to be included from the team we're trading with in order to make the salaries match.

round and round we go, where we stop...i know...i know...the lottery!!!

you have an intersting way to look at the cap. your view of the cap is like jim dolan's. you got the money, so who cares about the cap, right? meanwhile, we've been sucking 4 years in a row...
Allanfan20
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3/8/2005  12:39 PM
No, b/c we went from a .300 team with Layden to a .400 team with Isiah. Therefore, the light has been shown and a championship, as we all know it, is in sight. All we need to do is trade Tim Thomas, Penny, Trevor, Sweetney, this years lotto pick and a lotto pick in 2006 for Gary Payton, and we will be on our way.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Allanfan20
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3/8/2005  12:43 PM
Oh, let me add, Layden didn't have a career .300 winning %. He had that % basically after he made that stupid KVH deal, (Then Isiah took over and we magically started playing hard and winning some games). He also had it our first losing season (I think?) But we were a .500 team after Sprewell had that pinky injury. So compared to THAT Layden team, with Sprewll and a healthy Houston, we are actually WORSE, with Marbury and Crawford leading the way. Go figure. And don't even think about giving me the supporting cast excuse.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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3/8/2005  1:00 PM
The team was 10-18 when Layden was fired. I don't have a calculator with me but that's around 35%. The team has gone 54-59 under Isiah. I was estimating that that was around 47%. You're right the team was getting worse and worse under Layden, and that's why the team Isiah had to rebuild from was at around 35%.
If Isiah had inherited the 37 win team with Sprewell (and his expiring contract), then I'm sure the team would be in a better position right now because Isiah would have inherited a less disasterous foundation, but since Isiah inherited a more disasterous roster, there's no point in comparing the team now to that team.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/08/2005 13:04:14]
Bonn1997
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3/8/2005  1:01 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bonn1997:
we have 9 players making $5 mil or more. the only (current) players making less than that are sweetney, sundov, ariza, and butler. if we want to trade for a player on a rookie contract, for example, one of those guys has to go
No, just other players have to be included from the team we're trading with in order to make the salaries match.

round and round we go, where we stop...i know...i know...the lottery!!!

you have an intersting way to look at the cap. your view of the cap is like jim dolan's. you got the money, so who cares about the cap, right? meanwhile, we've been sucking 4 years in a row...
We sucked because of Layden. There's nothing wrong with spending money (even HUGE amounts) intelligently; there's everything wrong with spending it stupidly like Layden did. There's a huge difference.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/08/2005 13:02:20]
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