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sorry, but Isiah's been a disaster
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misterearl
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3/7/2005  8:27 AM
Mo Taylor

15 points and 4 boards is not a disaster

He's already scored more points in one game than Vin Baker all season.

fish.mike, read my lips.... it ain't your money

Isiah has made the Knicks undeniably better in 14 months.

Why can't he be allowed to do his job without a lynchmob?

once a knick always a knick
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Marv
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3/7/2005  8:37 AM
i'm an Isiah-supporter, but i do recognize that he invites a lot of criticism with a deal like the Taylor one. When your fan base has accepted a losing season in return for shedding contracts, developing your young players and acquiring draft picks, you're going to draw a lot of heat if you make a move like that one.
misterearl
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3/7/2005  8:42 AM
The fan base is simply impatrient for instant results

No one thought you could trade Clarence Weatherspoon either

How long does Isiah deserve to do his job?

Half as long as Layden perhaps?

Sheesh
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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3/7/2005  8:50 AM
Lets pose the question another way.

Given the status of the Knicks franchise in December of 2003.

How many months would people allow Jerry West to do his job if he were President of the Knicks?
once a knick always a knick
Marv
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3/7/2005  8:52 AM
Posted by misterearl:

The fan base is simply impatrient for instant results

No one thought you could trade Clarence Weatherspoon either

How long does Isiah deserve to do his job?

Half as long as Layden perhaps?

Sheesh

I guess it's just a matter of opinion. i think IT would be getting a lot more sulpport if he had stopped at the Nazr trade. i think pulling the trigger on the MoT deal looks an awful lot like another Fatspoon or Anderson/Eisley kind of deal. That's upset a lot of people. I find it understandable. i don't think IT's getting any more hammered than any other GM would who made those moves at this time. Maybe Layden got a longer fuse from people, but he stunk up the place so bad that any GM post-Layden is gonna get jumped on for any Layden-like moves. Not just Isiah - any GM here now would.
misterearl
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3/7/2005  9:09 AM
>>Maybe Layden got a longer fuse from people, but he stunk up the place so bad that any GM post-Layden is gonna get jumped on for any Layden-like moves.

Maybe?

Layden got four freakin' years!

One major difference.. Isiah has brought in guys who can actually play.

He's had exactly ONE draft. He's GAINED two (impossible) first round picks

The Knicks are younger and more compeeling. It's just that the Drama Queens want it overnight. Unfortunately, none of them could identify a franchise that turned it around in one season either.

It don't happen that way.
once a knick always a knick
Nalod
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3/7/2005  9:10 AM
IM sure rocket fans are suprised they were able to trade MO T!

As much as I am split about Isiah, ( I like what he is doing, hate his double speak and the way he has handled his coaches thus far)
he needs at least 4 years. HE needs to galvanize his plan and communicate it. That is why he replaced Laydog. If he is going to waffle on his plan, we are no better than before.

I really don't think we are planing to keep all these PFs this summer, so the Mo T. deal might make sense at some point.
fishmike
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3/7/2005  9:42 AM
when I look at the resources he's had to work with what he's come up with is pretty lame. The only reason we are closer to franchise talent is because this team has played so poorly that we just might do very well in this upcoming draft which looks to be incredibly deep from top to bottom.

The only impressive thing Isiah has done to me so far is draft Ariza. He's going to be a core rotation player in a couple years and to get that at pick 40 whatever is impressive.

Marbury and Crawford deals got us better players but we paid out the ass to get them. This was no magic, we saved the Bulls and Suns a huge amount of $$$ and both those teams are playing MUCH better without the guys they traded. We didnt rob them of some key player.

Moochie for Spoon who cares, except I liked it because Moochies smaller deal would be easier to use in the future.

Vin Baker signing was a joke and waste. We would have been better off with a Rodney White or anyone with some upside.

Mo Taylor does nothing for us we dont already have.

Malik Rose deal was "ok" at best. At one point I gave it a B-, the more I think about it its a C-. Those picks are just as easy to get with cash along and I think we would have been better off using Nazr at the deadline or this offseason for a sign and trade.

TT for KVH is a wash. At least he was trying to get more athletic. I cant blame Isiah too much for TT's total sissy play.

Ariza is a great pickup and Butler is good thinking even if it doesnt pan out.

Maybe disaster is too strong but NOTHING is impressive, and he's backed this franchise into a real corner for a couple years because there is ZERO flexibility with this roster.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
diderotn
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3/7/2005  9:46 AM
No disrespect, but I am beginning to think that you are Layden acting as Fishmike


Posted by fishmike:

when I look at the resources he's had to work with what he's come up with is pretty lame. The only reason we are closer to franchise talent is because this team has played so poorly that we just might do very well in this upcoming draft which looks to be incredibly deep from top to bottom.

The only impressive thing Isiah has done to me so far is draft Ariza. He's going to be a core rotation player in a couple years and to get that at pick 40 whatever is impressive.

Marbury and Crawford deals got us better players but we paid out the ass to get them. This was no magic, we saved the Bulls and Suns a huge amount of $$$ and both those teams are playing MUCH better without the guys they traded. We didnt rob them of some key player.

Moochie for Spoon who cares, except I liked it because Moochies smaller deal would be easier to use in the future.

Vin Baker signing was a joke and waste. We would have been better off with a Rodney White or anyone with some upside.

Mo Taylor does nothing for us we dont already have.

Malik Rose deal was "ok" at best. At one point I gave it a B-, the more I think about it its a C-. Those picks are just as easy to get with cash along and I think we would have been better off using Nazr at the deadline or this offseason for a sign and trade.

TT for KVH is a wash. At least he was trying to get more athletic. I cant blame Isiah too much for TT's total sissy play.

Ariza is a great pickup and Butler is good thinking even if it doesnt pan out.

Maybe disaster is too strong but NOTHING is impressive, and he's backed this franchise into a real corner for a couple years because there is ZERO flexibility with this roster.
The true Knickabocker..........
tkf
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3/7/2005  10:19 AM
wow fish, I am suprised at this thread, considering the knicks have been playing better of late..

I still am still going to wait and see what IT does with this roster before I call it a disaster. I agree, I do like ariza, sweetney, marbs and crawford, i think that rose was a good acquisition along with the two picks and taking on Butler is a good low cost risk.. I think this summer IT has a play to rid ourselves of some of these PF's, but I must admit, it is a lot easier to move guys like rose and taylor with a pick to get back a good young player, than just move expiring deals and having to take back, longer deals for even worse players than rose or taylor, so I think there is some method to IT's madness..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
djsunyc
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3/7/2005  10:30 AM
Posted by misterearl:

No one thought you could trade Clarence Weatherspoon either

right...for moochie norris.

i supported isiah since he got here and i also agree that we need to give him time. but some of his recent moves do not sit well with me.

i believe that we need to get to some sort of cap manageability soon. (that doesn't mean get under that cap but have a bunch of contracts that can easily be traded). everyone pointed at 07 after h20's contract comes off. well, he's starting to add years after that also (with malik rose). i don't like that.

i also believe that the young guys need to get minutes. sweets is starting - that's good but instead of getting 38 mins, he's now getting 28 mins b/c mo taylor played the 4th quarter. i don't like that. ariza is BURIED behind penny. i don't like that.

isiah needs to hit a home run with this draft b/c instead of waiting and trying to do sign and trades this summer with nazr, he dumped him for a longer deal to get into this draft. so he needs to make it special. (remember all those sign and trade posts we used to make for swift, kwame, etc. well all those options are gone).

we can't afford to have a GM make one good move and one bad move. layden was all bad moves. we need a GM that makes all good moves if we want to get out of this situation.
Bonn1997
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3/7/2005  10:36 AM
Posted by diderotn:

No disrespect, but I am beginning to think that you are Layden acting as Fishmike


Posted by fishmike:

when I look at the resources he's had to work with what he's come up with is pretty lame. The only reason we are closer to franchise talent is because this team has played so poorly that we just might do very well in this upcoming draft which looks to be incredibly deep from top to bottom.

The only impressive thing Isiah has done to me so far is draft Ariza. He's going to be a core rotation player in a couple years and to get that at pick 40 whatever is impressive.

Marbury and Crawford deals got us better players but we paid out the ass to get them. This was no magic, we saved the Bulls and Suns a huge amount of $$$ and both those teams are playing MUCH better without the guys they traded. We didnt rob them of some key player.

Moochie for Spoon who cares, except I liked it because Moochies smaller deal would be easier to use in the future.

Vin Baker signing was a joke and waste. We would have been better off with a Rodney White or anyone with some upside.

Mo Taylor does nothing for us we dont already have.

Malik Rose deal was "ok" at best. At one point I gave it a B-, the more I think about it its a C-. Those picks are just as easy to get with cash along and I think we would have been better off using Nazr at the deadline or this offseason for a sign and trade.

TT for KVH is a wash. At least he was trying to get more athletic. I cant blame Isiah too much for TT's total sissy play.

Ariza is a great pickup and Butler is good thinking even if it doesnt pan out.

Maybe disaster is too strong but NOTHING is impressive, and he's backed this franchise into a real corner for a couple years because there is ZERO flexibility with this roster.
LOL! It's either Layden or Islesfan. I can't decide which
Bonn1997
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3/7/2005  10:40 AM
Posted by fishmike:

what are we building here? We already had Malik Rose and Mo Taylor here 2 years ago.

I'm as objective as anyone. Isiah said unorthodox. To me that means overpaying for late #1 picks because we can afford to do so. I bet of the 10 teams that have picks from 20-30 that AT LEAST 3 of them would surrender their #1 for $3mm and a future 2nd rounder. So why take on Malik Rose for 4 years to get two????

When I harp about the payroll its not because I care about the $$$, its because if we load our roster up with MLE contracts and rookie deals we have a better chance to parlay that into a big name player. Nobody wants to trade for one of our 40 PFs making $8mm a year with multiple years left. Where's the young and athletic?

I dont care what Isiah says, whether he lies whos ass he tries to blow smoke up. Malik is a good guy, great worker and a solid human you want your young guys around. So why add Mo Taylor?

If your getting young and athletic why sign Vin Baker for 2 years?

Hey... I hope like HELL we strike gold in this lottery. There will be an ass ton of talent and Isiah's been good at drafting in the past. Too bad two of the guys are looking at spending their first 2 years on IR because we have 10 vets with long term deals in front of them.

Lets take an inventory:
We have no size
We have no defensive stoppers on the wing or in the post
We have no centers
As much as I like Ariza and Sweetney and even Butler considering the resources the Knicks have I'm not the least bit impressed by that. There isnt a team in the NBA that doesnt have pipeline at least that good. Is Isiah supposed to get a medal for that? Every GM in the NBA uses to draft...

I'm hoping and praying he pulls a rabit out of his hat this offseason, because I'm not impressed so far with the roster or how they have played. Whats his best move so far? Marbury? Pho is laughing all the way to the best record in the NBA. Probably his best move is Ariza and he will need to draft 3 more this offseason AND clear enough roster spaces for them to play before I can be the least bit happy with what he's done considering what he has had to work with.
You can't claim to be objective an then say that on the trade deadline day he traded soon-to-be expiring deals for Rose and Taylor without mentioning the best assets we did acquire--the two first round draft picks. That's the kind of spin Islefan would use. That's like claiming to be objective but then also saying that we traded expiring deals, two picks, Lampe, Vujanic, and Frank Williams just to get Penny Hardaway again without mentioning the best portion of the trade--that someone named Stephon Marbury was also involved.
fishmike
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3/7/2005  10:49 AM
we can't afford to have a GM make one good move and one bad move. layden was all bad moves. we need a GM that makes all good moves if we want to get out of this situation.
DJ... great line. Thats it in a nutshell. Before these last trades Isiah was establishing a pattern and a very good one. Yes he took back money and deals with JYD and Penny but those trades had more players leaving than coming back. They also got rid of some dead weight and they were consistant with his MO of getting younger, more athletic and remaining flexible, even if we did give up picks to get Marbury.

He comes away with Ariza in the draft and even though this year has been bad you can see the team transforming and at least becoming watchable. Then he moves 3 guys with very reasonable contracts and the teams only center for 2 guys that DONT have reasonable contracts and play the same position of 3 guys we already have on the roster. They arent consistant with the getting younger and more athletic MO either. Sorry if Im not impressed by 2 draft late #1 picks that could have been bought for cash on draft day anyway.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
franco12
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3/7/2005  10:55 AM
I think Islesfans has somehow gotten hold of fishmike's username and password.
franco12
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3/7/2005  10:56 AM
I think the Mo Taylor and Rose deals were about flexibility-

Mo was playing last night to reestablish his value.

I bet KT & Sweetney might get traded over the summer
tomverve
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3/7/2005  11:09 AM
The only disaster is that Knicks fans are going around calling Isiah a 'disaster' after having experienced the Layden plague!

You know what a real, live, breathing disaster is? Signing an over the hill Clarence Weatherspoon to the full MLE, that's what. Acquiring Mo Taylor for 2 years is hardly a disaster. Look, I wasn't wild about the MT trade when it went down either. I'm still waiting for Isiah to restore roster balance in the draft/summer.

But don't complain about Taylor not being a player (he's showing that he is), or about being superfluous. Sorry, it looks to me like Taylor is our best go-to option in the post right now, period. Sweets needs to get deep post position to do damage. Mo is not so limited in where he can score from on the court. And the 'we already had a guy who could do the things Taylor does' argument is, well, lousy. By this logic, I guess Seattle should have actively tried to dump Radmanovic long ago, and certainly Phoenix was pretty bone-headed about signing Quentin Richardson. The reality is that sometimes it pays to have more than one guy who can shoot the 3, or post up, or whatever.

All in all, I can see why there is some dissent about Isiah's latest wave of moves, but to call it a DISASTER is pretty silly. I expect several more changes this summer, so I think it'd be wisest to reserve final judgment of what Isiah has done until November.
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fishmike
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3/7/2005  11:12 AM
lol... cablevision loves you. Keep believing anything Isiah tells you. I basicly praised everything he did up until now, but the Rose and Taylor trades were weak... plain and simple. Sorry if a roster of 5 PFs all under 6'9 and $110mm of retreads and cast offs on a team playing .400 ball doesnt have me dancing in the streets.

But I'm sure we wil be fine.. Isiah said on the radio that Jackie Butler was going to be the next Shaq so I'm sure we will be winning titles in a couple years. MAn... gotta run, I'm off to MSG to sign up for season ticket!!! Whoo-hoo!
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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3/7/2005  11:21 AM
Posted by fishmike:

lol... cablevision loves you. Keep believing anything Isiah tells you. I basicly praised everything he did up until now, but the Rose and Taylor trades were weak... plain and simple. Sorry if a roster of 5 PFs all under 6'9 and $110mm of retreads and cast offs on a team playing .400 ball doesnt have me dancing in the streets.

But I'm sure we wil be fine.. Isiah said on the radio that Jackie Butler was going to be the next Shaq so I'm sure we will be winning titles in a couple years. MAn... gotta run, I'm off to MSG to sign up for season ticket!!! Whoo-hoo!
You've made a very testable prediction. You've said that the contracts of Baker, Norris, and Nazy were very important to making any big trades in the offseason. I actually think that the two first round draft picks will be better assets to combine with the $30 mil in expiring contracts of TT and Penny in trades than would having the $43 mil in expiring contracts without those two draft picks. We shall see over the next year whether you're right that Isiah put himself in position where he's stuck and can't make any trades that significantly upgrade the roster or whether I'm right and the draft picks and expiring contracts will leave Isiah with nice trade assets that he will use to improve our rotation. Regardless of which one of us is proved right, I'll bring back this thread before next year's trade deadline just to see who was right. (And you know I will! )

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/07/2005 11:23:13]
fishmike
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3/7/2005  11:25 AM
Seattle and Pho didnt have 4 people already at those positions signed to long term deals.

Did it occur to you if Mo Taylor is your best option in the post you are worse off than you think? I would rather take my chance in the lottery than watch Mo Taylor carry us to 34 wins. THAT was Layden's philosophy.

OK.. after Layden maybe disaster is too strong a word, but Zeke is dangerously close to repeating EXACTLY the same mistakes Layden did.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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sorry, but Isiah's been a disaster
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