his moves just dont make sense with each other. Why Mo Taylor when you put a premium on expiring deals? It just doesnt make sense.

I had an open mind with Layden until the end, and I still do with Isiah, but some of move fly in the face of reality. Like LAyden he's always got you wondering about the next trade. Getting Marbury was solid, but instead of surrounding him with young athletic guys he gets Mo Taylor, Rose, signs Vin Baker to 2 years $8mm... these moves make ZERO sense from a $$$ standpoint OR a BB standpoint.

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by KNICKSdom:

Let's not pull a "Fire Layden" type of trend on Isiah just yet. How easy it is to forget the Knicks before the Isiah era. That was a very putrid error of a team featuring Howard Eisley as our starting pg and Spree playing out of position at sf. Marbury, Jamal and whoever that is not fat and short is a good start somewhere. Knicks had always had a bloated cap since the Ewing trade fiasco. It really goes way back and I think we are still paying dearly for it even now. I really believe Isiah have a vision for this team to be young and athletic just like the teams he coached in Indiana. Mo Taylor makes me scratch my head but he at least have two years left after this one. The more I think about it, the more I think our window of opportunity should be in three years like Fish stated in another thread. Right now I don't sniff the playoffs but the lottery. I refuse to believe we will make the playoffs this year until I see otherwise. But I will tell you one thing, I like Herb Williams as our coach for next year. He is no Wilkins or Don Chaney. He is from that Knicks era when we used to make the playoffs year after year. I feel like I have been to battle with him before. He should be given a chance to coach the Knicks next year. I like him and it is not his fault he inherited a sinking ship of a team.

I agree with you, but this last caliber of moves--taking on 30mm for questionable players--has to be the last.

What we need is to get some length, athletiscm and skill out of the draft and the MLE over the next 2 years to comliment what is here, we need to build a foundation under the older core.

If we see something like we traded pick 8 + Penny Hardaway for Mike Finley, then you will hear fire isiah chants. He has to keep true to his word, its not about winning per-se, its about setting the future up for better things that are sustainable.

I couldn't agree more. I can't see Isiah taking in more bloated contracts after the last transactions. I just hope he utilizes this year's draft at least to near perfection one way or the other.

Posted by fishmike:

his moves just dont make sense with each other. Why Mo Taylor when you put a premium on expiring deals? It just doesnt make sense.

I had an open mind with Layden until the end, and I still do with Isiah, but some of move fly in the face of reality. Like LAyden he's always got you wondering about the next trade. Getting Marbury was solid, but instead of surrounding him with young athletic guys he gets Mo Taylor, Rose, signs Vin Baker to 2 years $8mm... these moves make ZERO sense from a $$$ standpoint OR a BB standpoint.

when he talks about expiring deals he's talking about TT & Penny not Baker & Moochie.

Briggs I agree if a move like your Finley example is made that problably gets us in the playoffs is made then we know the Knicks are not about winning a championship but from day 1 Isiah said the goal is to win a championship. He's not stupid enough to think that Finley will win you a championship but Layden is.

Posted by fishmike:

his moves just dont make sense with each other. Why Mo Taylor when you put a premium on expiring deals? It just doesnt make sense.

I had an open mind with Layden until the end, and I still do with Isiah, but some of move fly in the face of reality. Like LAyden he's always got you wondering about the next trade. Getting Marbury was solid, but instead of surrounding him with young athletic guys he gets Mo Taylor, Rose, signs Vin Baker to 2 years $8mm... these moves make ZERO sense from a $$$ standpoint OR a BB standpoint.

Yea that is true. Ever think Isiah's Cap Guru aka Frank Murphy has a plan with expiring deals looking ahead? It does looks like nonsense but maybe it is an unorthodox method looking into the future?

I'm shocked Fish. You've said that a GM's plans will take at least 3 years to apply. (At least I think it was you.) You have to give any GM more than 2 half seasons. I would have even given Layden more than 2 half seasons. Just because one move doesn't make sense to you (the Mo Taylor move) doesn't mean that Isiah doesn't have a good plan. He may have a good plan that just isn't readily apparent to fish_mike. He made it pretty clear that he values expiring contracts and thinks Mo Taylor's will be a valuable one in 2 years. I disagreed with that one trade (also his most minor trade of the ones he's made), but I don't think it deviates from his plan. He obtained a player and a contract that according to his plan will be more valuable when the contract is expiring than will the players he gave up.
And of course this season's record has been a disappointment. I don't think anyone will dispute that. That does not imply, though, that you can reach a full decision on Isiah as a GM after two half seasons and also does not mean the team does not have the right assets to improve.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/06/2005 19:52:21]

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by fishmike:

his moves just dont make sense with each other. Why Mo Taylor when you put a premium on expiring deals? It just doesnt make sense.

I had an open mind with Layden until the end, and I still do with Isiah, but some of move fly in the face of reality. Like LAyden he's always got you wondering about the next trade. Getting Marbury was solid, but instead of surrounding him with young athletic guys he gets Mo Taylor, Rose, signs Vin Baker to 2 years $8mm... these moves make ZERO sense from a $$$ standpoint OR a BB standpoint.

Just thinking but do you guys think that before he traded for Taylor, Zeke went to Aguirre and asked him if he can make something out of Taylor, And Aguirre said hell yeah, bring him on and I can make him something...?

It's possible. He probably felt he could make more out of Taylor than out of either Moochie or Baker or out of a player who he could get in exchange for M & B's expiring contracts last year. I would have preferred to wait until next year to see if we could get someone better than Taylor, though. (He probably wasn't going anywhere.)

what are we building here? We already had Malik Rose and Mo Taylor here 2 years ago.

I'm as objective as anyone. Isiah said unorthodox. To me that means overpaying for late #1 picks because we can afford to do so. I bet of the 10 teams that have picks from 20-30 that AT LEAST 3 of them would surrender their #1 for $3mm and a future 2nd rounder. So why take on Malik Rose for 4 years to get two????

When I harp about the payroll its not because I care about the $$$, its because if we load our roster up with MLE contracts and rookie deals we have a better chance to parlay that into a big name player. Nobody wants to trade for one of our 40 PFs making $8mm a year with multiple years left. Where's the young and athletic?

I dont care what Isiah says, whether he lies whos ass he tries to blow smoke up. Malik is a good guy, great worker and a solid human you want your young guys around. So why add Mo Taylor?

If your getting young and athletic why sign Vin Baker for 2 years?

Hey... I hope like HELL we strike gold in this lottery. There will be an ass ton of talent and Isiah's been good at drafting in the past. Too bad two of the guys are looking at spending their first 2 years on IR because we have 10 vets with long term deals in front of them.

Lets take an inventory:
We have no size
We have no defensive stoppers on the wing or in the post
We have no centers
As much as I like Ariza and Sweetney and even Butler considering the resources the Knicks have I'm not the least bit impressed by that. There isnt a team in the NBA that doesnt have pipeline at least that good. Is Isiah supposed to get a medal for that? Every GM in the NBA uses to draft...

I'm hoping and praying he pulls a rabit out of his hat this offseason, because I'm not impressed so far with the roster or how they have played. Whats his best move so far? Marbury? Pho is laughing all the way to the best record in the NBA. Probably his best move is Ariza and he will need to draft 3 more this offseason AND clear enough roster spaces for them to play before I can be the least bit happy with what he's done considering what he has had to work with.

why add Mo Taylor? because he is a lot more talented and has a lot more upside than Kurt Thomas. I think you're really underestimating Mo's ability. He an incredible offensive player from the outside and in the post and is $10mil cheaper than a Chris Webber.

We are in great shape at PF once KT is traded.
Taylor - PF/C
Sweetney - PF/C
Rose - PF/SF
JYD - PF/SF

All we need is a true shotblocking center and a bigger and better SG!!


[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/07/2005 00:21:50]

Isiah is obviously not a disaster. But, a couple of more Mo Taylor trades and he'll be heading in that direction.

Mo Taylor Trade = disaster

Rose Trade = bad move. 2 picks around 30 can be had through other ways - a pick around 15 was attainable via trade to Minnesota. If not, should have simply kept Nazr.

Tim Thomas + Nazr trade = good move. Upgraded talent at both positions.

Drafting Ariza = good move.

Crawford trade = good move. Took back contracts that end prior to 2007.

The Marbury trade = risk that had to be taken, it was the fastest way to get a premier caliber player - something that the draft doesn't guarantee at picks 8-13. But, this trade is only justified if he can surround Marbury with a star 4-5 or dump Marbury for assets that atleast remotely resemble what we gave up for him.

A real disaster would be retaining Marbury as he declines (5 years from now) - then we have no big man and no point guard. Since the only way to get a star big man now is essentially to work the draft or target an unproven commodity - you have to consider development time. That really limits options. A 5-year project center means Marbury's in a rehab center before the kid can even play.

But Layden made the Spree for KVH trade, and the cape is less than 60 million...so exactly where are we at that is better? We would still be over the cap, we wouldn't jhave any talent to build around (Steph, Craw wouldn't be here) and we would have a lineup of

KT/Doleac/Mutumbo/Baker
Sweetney/Weatherspoon/Lampje/Harrington
Penny/Anderson
Houston/??
Ward/Williams

Isn't CHicago better because of the additions of Gordon, Deng and Noccioni? you'd have to be a pretty huge Craw-hater to say no, it's because they lost Craw.