the more you look at it the clearer it becomes. We have taken on what? $200mm in salaries and we have Jamal Crawford and Marbury to show for it. Our payroll next year is over $100 and the following year its over $80mm. We arent any closer to franchise caliber talent then when Layden was here, and we have even more bad contracts.

if Isiah has been a disaster than what is Layden. I think Isiah's ulimate goal is to get another superstar preferably a bigman to play with Marbury and contend for a championship whether he can get one for TT/Penny or we'll have to wait until he can trade Houston.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/06/2005 17:34:28]

thats a good question. Layden brought in overpriced guys and the Knicks were bad. He filled the roster with bad contracts belonging to subpar players. He traded away first rounder after first rounder and had nothing to show for it.

So far Isiah's pretty much done the same. I like Ariza and Crawford and even Marbury but whats the difference? We still stink, we still have a roster full of bloated below average players. The only thing about Isiah that gives you ANY promise at all is he's a good draft guy, but so was Layden before he got here.

If we come out of the next two drafts with no one special, just some additional scrubs, you can officially deem Isiah a disaster.
So far Zeke has only had one pick to work with in the draft, #43. I'd say he did pretty good with that one. This year we have three picks, one of which (assuming nothing miraculous occurs) will be a lotto pick. He's also brought in an additional pick for next year. Whose to say he doesn't find that one player that makes his tenure here all worth while?
I'm not going to even try to justify him taking on the load of longer contracts at the expense of soon to be expiring ones. I just want to give Zeke a chance to defend himself with his one true management skill: the draft.
I guess we can officially throw out the whole "give him a few years before we judge him" idea. It's all ready been killed with blind support and impatient fans calling for his head (fish, not directed towards you...you've been pretty objective through the whole ordeal).
Layden was the disaster, Isiah has been more of an unfortunate event. I wouldn't shed any tears if he was replaced (after the draft of course), but I think he deserves another year.

[Edited by - MaTT4281 on 03/06/2005 17:43:09]

phil jackson....although he is firery on the sidelines. I don't think he yells at players in practice. God I hope we can land Phil

Posted by MaTT4281:


Layden was the disaster, Isiah has been more of an unfortunate event.
[Edited by - MaTT4281 on 03/06/2005 17:43:09]

Awesome line!

Scott Laydens brought in Shandon, Eisley, signed Ward and Houston knowing Childs and Spree were already signed for alot of money at the same position. Turned a draft pick into, Erick Strickland when the Knicks were already stacked at guard then trades Erick for Othella Harrington. Then Weatherspoon signed? Camby and Nene was traded for McDyess.

I've been trying to forget all this for so long.......Did I miss something?

Isiah turned McDyess and franchise trash into Marbury and Penny Hardaway. What franchise trash? Ward and Eisley were considered the most overpaid and underskilled point guards in the league. Milos? That dude probably will never play in the NBA. Lampe? He can't even get burn on the lowly New Orleans Hornets ahead of no names like Vroman.

KVH was traded for Timmy and Nazr. Timmy has been a faggot and Nazr has been too busy getting in foul trouble to play defense. Still Timmy has an expiring contract after this season and Nazr turned into Rose and 2 freaking draft picks.

Baker and Moochie turned into Mo Taylor.

Is this team better? Yes.....playoffs? no but the Knicks would have been if Timmy found his game in December rather than March, and Crawfords injury along with Lenny Wilkins in ability to make things work.

Bright side of things?
Isiah has tried to bring in more skill while still stockpiling youth with Craw, Ariza, Jackie Butler, and 3 draft picks this comming draft. The foundation is there......

Isiah may try to continue to consolidate and add better players while making room for the youth. At least we have a plan.

I may miss something....I don't care really. I just know being a Knick fan is more fun these days. I feel good about the future and I dare anyone say I'm a banwagoner when things start to produce wins. I just might do a 2-5 year bid just to prove my point.

Go Knicks and Go Isiah.....Dolan stay out of it!!!!! Let Isiah do his thing!!!!

Posted by knicks1248:

The biggest blunder IT has done so far is Hire lenny wilkens, then put herb in his place.

Malik Rose say he could hardly understand herb becuase he was speaken so softly in practices, he was so use to havin pop yell at the top of his lungs and demanded certain things from players.

Somebody please explain to me what mild mannered coach has won a championship in the last 20 years. This roster was a lot more balance and talanted in the begining of the season and still we played defense like rookies.

We have enough talant on this team, just not the right guy running it.

You are fooling yourself man. Did you watch the Orlando game? Did you notice our frontcourt players looked like CBB players and wer easily 4-6 inches smaller all over the place? Isiah said he was going to get longer, more athletic and tougher. the only person who fits this criteria is the 42 pick in the draft. TT could be a great player, but sometimes great players just show signs--remember a met named Greg Jefferies? All the talent in the world, shouldve been a 330 hitter for 12-15 years, but it just didnt pan out for variable reasons. TT has a lot of talent, but there is just something missing.
Anyway, any person who fels the Knicks have the talent RIGHT now to win a championship with Phil Jackson at the helm, is bluntly WRONG. By the way, have you ever noticed Phil Jackson to be a yeller? the guy is one of the most laid back coaches there is.

Posted by knicks1248:


We have enough talant on this team, just not the right guy running it.

These are grown men.....you mean to tell me you need a screaming maniac to make guys play good basketball? Phil Jackson was not a screaming type of guy. He didn't even stand up and walk the sidelines.

Stop falling for the media BS.

I wanted Lenny to get a fair chance. He did....the Knicks lacked energy because they had no clue what their roles were.

Herb since he took over....the Knicks have gotten back to a structured type of game. You can see it. The Knicks have steadily gotten better as a team before the Orlando game.

Phil likes to have 2 dominant players and role players that are some of the best at what they do. Phil also likes to run the triangle offense. With Phil here things all around would have to change. This is not a Phil situation.

Herb might not be the one but for now he at least has shown real progress.

Why is larry brown a great coach, why is JVG, pop , sloan, daley, phil, why are all these guy's consider great coaches. Simply because they bring the best out of there players, simply because they bring a certain attitude, and demand a certain amount of respect.

It isn't all bout talant alone. Yeah were short, but thats not the only reason we lost against the magic, dude there effort was lacking, the overall defense was horrndous. I mean how much effort and talant does it take to put a hand in someones face.

i said it before but the only difference between isiah and layden is that isiah does think the draft is important. layden blantantly threw away draft picks left and right. i think isiah knows the importance. the young guys on the bench when layden was here were frank williams, lampe, and sweetney on IR. since isiah took over, it's crawford (signed for $50 mil - the knicks twisted way of thinking this is a draft pick), ariza, and sweetney off the IR. slight improvement b/c frank WAS starting to play and was starting to contribute before isiah got here.

we needed a GREAT gm to fix this. dolan may be an idiot and have an open checkbook but ultimately it's the GM that acquires tim thomas, nazr, jyd, mo taylor, etc. he gave isiah the keys and he's already put in some nast fender benders.

does isiah have time to get this car out of the mechanic and back on the road - yes, but he needs to hit a HOME F'N RUN this draft and get crazy lucky if he has any shot. otherwise that paint job isiah put on this 87 sentra would be the only thing isiah did...

Posted by KNICKSdom:

Let's not pull a "Fire Layden" type of trend on Isiah just yet. How easy it is to forget the Knicks before the Isiah era. That was a very putrid error of a team featuring Howard Eisley as our starting pg and Spree playing out of position at sf. Marbury, Jamal and whoever that is not fat and short is a good start somewhere. Knicks had always had a bloated cap since the Ewing trade fiasco. It really goes way back and I think we are still paying dearly for it even now. I really believe Isiah have a vision for this team to be young and athletic just like the teams he coached in Indiana. Mo Taylor makes me scratch my head but he at least have two years left after this one. The more I think about it, the more I think our window of opportunity should be in three years like Fish stated in another thread. Right now I don't sniff the playoffs but the lottery. I refuse to believe we will make the playoffs this year until I see otherwise. But I will tell you one thing, I like Herb Williams as our coach for next year. He is no Wilkins or Don Chaney. He is from that Knicks era when we used to make the playoffs year after year. I feel like I have been to battle with him before. He should be given a chance to coach the Knicks next year. I like him and it is not his fault he inherited a sinking ship of a team.

I agree with you, but this last caliber of moves--taking on 30mm for questionable players--has to be the last.

What we need is to get some length, athletiscm and skill out of the draft and the MLE over the next 2 years to comliment what is here, we need to build a foundation under the older core.

If we see something like we traded pick 8 + Penny Hardaway for Mike Finley, then you will hear fire isiah chants. He has to keep true to his word, its not about winning per-se, its about setting the future up for better things that are sustainable.