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is it safe to say that this draft is isiah's make or break day?
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djsunyc
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3/6/2005  11:44 AM
he's brought in 3 young players as part of the core (craw, ariza, sweets). he's brought in a young flawed star player in marbury. and he's brought in A TON more $$$'s in salary.

all of this has resulted in a WORSE record than last year.

sign and trades are out the window for tim/penny. he gave up a more reasonble sign and trade when he gave up nazr, vin and moochie. we are structurally flawed.

our only real saving grace, to me, is the draft. if he doesn't hit a home run this draft day, with a lottery pick (6-10), a late 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder, should the isiah watch be on?
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gunsnewing
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3/6/2005  11:52 AM
well lets see what he can do with the contracts of TT & Penny first. IMO what he does with those contracts will have a much bigger impact on us next year than our last lottery draft pick. Unless we somehow win the lottery and draft Bogut. I don't feel like completely banking on a late lottery draft pick who won't be ready for a few years.
djsunyc
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3/6/2005  11:55 AM
that's the thing. i DONT want to sign and trade tim and penny. that means we'll be taking back even WORSE deals for flawed players. when do we finally wake up and realize that cap manageability is important? financial responsibility is important? what type of player would we be getting back? SAR? the player is not going to be that good.
gunsnewing
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3/6/2005  12:01 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

that's the thing. i DONT want to sign and trade tim and penny. that means we'll be taking back even WORSE deals for flawed players. when do we finally wake up and realize that cap manageability is important? financial responsibility is important? what type of player would we be getting back? SAR? the player is not going to be that good.

I agree but you never know. Some teams might be looking to get under the cap to make a run at a top free agent like Yao or something. We can still get a really good player. or we can do one of those deals where we get a young player with tons of potential like a Kwame and then take bad contracts back. Which will only hurt Dolan's wallet not us. I just hope that the bad contracts rot on IR and the end of the bench and Sweetney and Ariza get most of the playing time.
bigpimpin
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3/6/2005  12:15 PM
correction: Layden drafted Sweetney. not isiah

but i don't think the draft is a make or break day for isiah. Now let me explain why.

you see the Knicks are a business. Dolan is not trying to win a championship, he even said that the 1999 Finals run was his worst experience ever. So how could it make him or break him when MSG has no blueprint to anything except ticket sales and ticket prices?

The Layden firing and the isiah hiring was a business move. Not a move to win a championship. Come on, the guy wanted Magic to become GM. Magic said no and praised isiah for the job.

There is a reason Magic said no. There is a reason Isiah said yes

I hated the Layden era and I hate the isiah era, you know why because they both are similar in so many ways, so that in itself tells me that noone is calling shots. Dolan basically allows his GM's to take a wrench and go under the hood and see what they can do, before he eventually fires them

watch

layden had no ideal what he was doing, isiah has no ideal what he is doing.

read their body language
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
Marv
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3/6/2005  12:20 PM
Posted by bigpimpin:

Dolan is not trying to win a championship, he even said that the 1999 Finals run was his worst experience ever.

Never heard this before. Did he say more - like why that was his worst experience ever?
gunsnewing
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3/6/2005  12:26 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by bigpimpin:

Dolan is not trying to win a championship, he even said that the 1999 Finals run was his worst experience ever.

Never heard this before. Did he say more - like why that was his worst experience ever?


What!!! how is that possible since it must've put a bunch of $$$$$ in his pocket!
MaTT4281
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3/6/2005  12:34 PM
correction: Layden drafted Sweetney. not isiah
dj just said Isiah made Sweetney part of the core, not actually drafted him.

In the fan's eyes, I got to say that it will be Isiah's make or break day, but bigpimpin did bring up a good point. It's Dolan we're dealing with. If he can go so long without seeing the problem with Layden, how could he see any other problems any sooner?
gunsnewing
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3/6/2005  12:48 PM
How do you know Isiah didn't try to convince him that building through the draft instead of adding payroll was the best way to win a championship?

Its not Isiah fault that it was problably made clear to him on day 1 when they first interviewed Isiah that this organization will not accept rebuilding and empty seats. So Isiah is forced to rebuild in less conventional ways like through smart draft choices and expiring contracts.. Whether it works out or not we shall see but clearly Dolan is the biggest problem because no matter who comes GM they will never cut it down.
djsunyc
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3/6/2005  12:58 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

How do you know Isiah didn't try to convince him that building through the draft instead of adding payroll was the best way to win a championship?

Its not Isiah fault that it was problably made clear to him on day 1 when they first interviewed Isiah that this organization will not accept rebuilding and empty seats. So Isiah is forced to rebuild in less conventional ways like through smart draft choices and expiring contracts.. Whether it works out or not we shall see but clearly Dolan is the biggest problem because no matter who comes GM they will never cut it down.

it all starts with dolan, you're all right. so far isiah has acquired more #1 picks (albeit late #1's) but acquired them nonetheless, that's a good thing. but he also turned $8 mil in expiring deals AND a #2 for mo taylor. that's a bad thing.

we need a GREAT GM to fix this and operate under dolan rules. isiah may be good but we need GREAT. i think isiah has 1 more year to get better than good.
MaTT4281
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3/6/2005  1:01 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

How do you know Isiah didn't try to convince him that building through the draft instead of adding payroll was the best way to win a championship?

Its not Isiah fault that it was problably made clear to him on day 1 when they first interviewed Isiah that this organization will not accept rebuilding and empty seats. So Isiah is forced to rebuild in less conventional ways like through smart draft choices and expiring contracts.. Whether it works out or not we shall see but clearly Dolan is the biggest problem because no matter who comes GM they will never cut it down.
I have no problem with Isiah, mainly because of Ariza. While I'm not upset with any of his moves (except Mo Taylor), I think we could have used the assets better. If we could limit Zeke's role to the draft and bring in another assistant GM or something, I would be thrilled.
bigpimpin
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3/6/2005  1:10 PM
i read it about a year ago and it hurt my feelings. i will try my best to find the article. It was in the New york newspaper, while Layden was here i think it was right before he fired Layden

he said isiah "brought in sweets". But it is no big deal, just wanted to point it out to isiah supporters that isiah hasn't brought in a big man that has made a difference. Even tho he has brought in about 15 players

I don't think he convinced him. and there is no real unconventional way to rebuild. That is just sweet talk.

If you tear something down, you simply tear it down. if you rebuild, you rebuild. Isiah is doing the same thing Layden is doing. he is adding

If you say it's not Isiah's fault then how was it Layden's fault. I like your bleed orange and blue Spirit, Gunsewing but a few more losing seasons will rip through that, trust me i know from experience

I saw Seattle, Denver, Phoenix, Cleveland, New Jersey and so many other teams suck, and then i see them win while we continue to suck.

Isn't that crazy

Guess what all those teams have in common. Draft picks and the abilty to sign difference making free agents.

I still can't believe layden signed Clarence Weatherspoon as a free agent to a 5 year deal. Oh my god.



"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
gunsnewing
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3/6/2005  1:12 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by gunsnewing:

How do you know Isiah didn't try to convince him that building through the draft instead of adding payroll was the best way to win a championship?

Its not Isiah fault that it was problably made clear to him on day 1 when they first interviewed Isiah that this organization will not accept rebuilding and empty seats. So Isiah is forced to rebuild in less conventional ways like through smart draft choices and expiring contracts.. Whether it works out or not we shall see but clearly Dolan is the biggest problem because no matter who comes GM they will never cut it down.

it all starts with dolan, you're all right. so far isiah has acquired more #1 picks (albeit late #1's) but acquired them nonetheless, that's a good thing. but he also turned $8 mil in expiring deals AND a #2 for mo taylor. that's a bad thing.

we need a GREAT GM to fix this and operate under dolan rules. isiah may be good but we need GREAT. i think isiah has 1 more year to get better than good.

I agree lets see what kind of team we have next year after the draft and trading of TT/Penny. If he makes terrible moves and we miss the playoffs again then we can start talking about a new GM because he will be on the hot seat.

I like that idea but it is easier said then done. There's no guarantee the next GM will do a better job and. I don't think Zeke would accept a role as a scout. He would most likely go coach another team.
Kwazimodal
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3/6/2005  1:57 PM
I dont see Isiah's job being on the line until early next season.He will have had time over the summer to make some moves,draft a few players and if Dolan sees another season like this one then he might pull the plug on Isiah.

Some of us thought that Layden would be fired alot sooner and Chaney kept getting contract extensions with Dolan's blessing so who knows?
gunsnewing
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3/6/2005  2:31 PM
Posted by Kwazimodal:

I dont see Isiah's job being on the line until early next season.He will have had time over the summer to make some moves,draft a few players and if Dolan sees another season like this one then he might pull the plug on Isiah.

Some of us thought that Layden would be fired alot sooner and Chaney kept getting contract extensions with Dolan's blessing so who knows?

actually I think its the other way around. I think we were shocked that he actually fired layden and chaney. It was Steve Mills doing. If it was up to Dolan Layden would still be here as is Glen Sather. It depends on how much Mills likes Isiah. I sure hope he won't just keep him around forever just because he's the great Isiah Thomas and he's black. I just hope it based on results. Realistically I think it would take us sucking past 2007 once Houston's is gone for them to consider firing Isiah. Hopefully Isiah really turns this team around next year so we don't have to worry about that.
fishmike
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3/6/2005  3:47 PM
in a lot of ways he's already screwed it up. We have moved Nazr, Vin and Moochie who all were entering their walk years this summer. Instead we added two veterans with LONG term contract that will demand playing time. So what good is energizing your team with new youn players like the Bulls did if they are on IR or buried behind 9-10 guys making over $7mm? Tough way to rebuild a roster.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
MS
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3/6/2005  4:46 PM
Thats why these last two deals were so stupid....It is really sad that everyone has so much faith in Isiah....The 33 million isn't a big deal, but when you consider that if he wants to move TT or Penny its a very big deal

He would have had a lot more flexibility had he just waited let the team keep losing and get a higher lottery pick, work with the mid-level and then trade
Kwazimodal
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3/6/2005  5:02 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Kwazimodal:

I dont see Isiah's job being on the line until early next season.He will have had time over the summer to make some moves,draft a few players and if Dolan sees another season like this one then he might pull the plug on Isiah.

Some of us thought that Layden would be fired alot sooner and Chaney kept getting contract extensions with Dolan's blessing so who knows?

actually I think its the other way around. I think we were shocked that he actually fired layden and chaney. It was Steve Mills doing. If it was up to Dolan Layden would still be here as is Glen Sather. It depends on how much Mills likes Isiah.


The last thing I would call the firing of Layden and Chaney is earlier than expected.Dolan replaced Checketts,so yes it was surprising that his hand picked successor for GM was allowed to remain as long as he did.Grunfeld and Checketts were fired for less,not they were so great themselves.

Mills apparently suggested Isiah among others for the job but I dont believe that he fired Layden until Dolan or his daddy wanted him fired.Id be surprised if he were little more than a yes man.I havent seen anything decisive about him.His moves comes after years of the press and fans screaming for management to make changes when it was obvious that changes were needed.
Bonn1997
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3/6/2005  8:00 PM
Posted by fishmike:

in a lot of ways he's already screwed it up. We have moved Nazr, Vin and Moochie who all were entering their walk years this summer. Instead we added two veterans with LONG term contract that will demand playing time. So what good is energizing your team with new youn players like the Bulls did if they are on IR or buried behind 9-10 guys making over $7mm? Tough way to rebuild a roster.
Come on Fish. You know we added two first round draft picks too. At least mention both the good and the bad instead of being one-sided.
MS
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3/7/2005  12:45 PM
Dude come on, act like they are impact picks or something, then we can mention them....bad deal no matter what

What about Ariza, yeah what about him it was a nice pick up but luck is luck for a reason it is not consistent
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is it safe to say that this draft is isiah's make or break day?
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