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I figured out Isiah's plan
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Solace
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2/25/2005  9:30 AM
I was looking over some stats and Malik Rose is actually pretty good. At PF, he has a net PER of -2.7, which is decent. At center, he's +4.1, which is really good (albeit, playing next to Duncan has something to do with these stats).

Maurice Taylor is plain terrible. He's got a net PER of -10.8 at PF, and -12.5 at center. UGH. This guy is just awful. But that may be to our advantage.

Here's the way I see it: Tim Thomas and Penny Hardaway are expiring next year anyway. Their value will be in the fact they're expiring, not in anything they do on the court. So, bench them.

Start a frontcourt of Kurt Thomas, Mo Taylor and Malik Rose. Kurt's value goes up when he plays center, as he puts up better numbers at center. If Malik Rose plays well in the starting job, we might be able to trade him for a pick at next year's trade deadline. Mo Taylor has an awful contract and nobody will want him anyway. Plus, he's bad enough to keep us from winning too much. Start him and we should have one of the six worst records this year and next. Taylor's value will be in that he's expiring after two more years, so he's tradeable at the 2006-2007 trade deadline. Here's how I see it...

We tank this year and next with a terribly undersized frontcourt and get some nice picks. Kurt Thomas goes for a first rounder after putting up 15 and 9 in 35+ mpg. Malik Rose goes for a first rounder or two second rounders and another heinous contract at next year's deadline. Jerome Williams goes for a few second rounders at next year's deadline. Mo Taylor goes for a first rounder when he's expiring. Penny and Tim possibly go in a larger scale trade. Suddenly we're talking a lot of picks during a short period, along with a lot of expiring deals, which we could package together for a superstar or two, or just let expire and build a young core with all the picks.

By the 2007 season, we might have a team that looks like:

C-2005 1st round pick
PF-Mike Sweetney
SF-Trevor Ariza
SG-Jamal Crawford
PG-Stephon Marbury

Bench:
2006 1st round pick
2005 2nd round pick
draft pick
draft pick
draft pick
bad contract
bad contract

... in a way we'll be in our way. I don't know if this is the right way to build, but I guess since we're in cap hell, it's one option. I really don't like it, because I think we need to try to get under the cap as well, but I guess there's some plan to this.
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AUTOADVERT
fishmike
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2/25/2005  9:51 AM
its hard because as a GM you really cant make your plan known. Maybe Isiah actually layed out a 3 year deal to Dolan and said spending this much in this span will leave us with something that looks like this...

I actually love the Rose trade. He's a pure banger, a self made guy. He's Jerome with a post game, and he comes with a couple late #1s. I have ZERO problem with this.. Mo Taylor is a disaster. I understand trading two guys that give you nothing for a guy that might be salvageable at 27 or whatever he is but I fail to see the worth.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
diderotn
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2/25/2005  9:57 AM
Again, the one move that I am waiting for Isiah to make is this: Jamal Sampson. Once he makes that move, We will definitely be a team...Until then, we are still incomplete. Too many PFs not enough Centers.....
The true Knickabocker..........
Solace
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2/25/2005  10:00 AM
He's ultimately rebuilding, but doing it knowing that the goal is not to get under the cap. So, since we can't get under the cap to sign that big free agent who will help the team, instead, we're just going to be bad, get some high picks, and then try to trade any player who performs who isn't in our plans for more picks.

I really don't think he thinks Mo Taylor is any good. I think we got Mo Taylor to help us tank. That's the only thing I can figure. The guy really isn't a very good player. Malik Rose is a good player if you need a 7th or 8th guy off the bench who can do some good things. Rose may have some value in trade if we give him a starting role and he performs well.
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s3231
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2/25/2005  10:01 AM
This is a simple concept yet it is the only reason I can see for Isiah doing the Taylor trade, I think he did the trade only because he believes that when Taylor has an expiring contract it will be worth more (tradewise) than Baker and Moochie's expiring contracts. I'm still not a fan of the trade, but at the end of the day we made our depth better while not screwing our chance of going under the cap as many people are saying. If it doesn't work out we have his and Allan's contracts coming off the books in 3 years, until then he is just an upgrade for our bench.
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
Nalod
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2/25/2005  10:13 AM
I still don't understand the mo T. thing. Would have not been cheaper to just buy out baker and use the Rocket Pick another way? Moochie expires this year, and was only 3 mil!

Why take on bigger contracts and talk of the value of them expiring? Just don't take them period!
djsunyc
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2/25/2005  10:15 AM
Posted by s3231:

This is a simple concept yet it is the only reason I can see for Isiah doing the Taylor trade, I think he did the trade only because he believes that when Taylor has an expiring contract it will be worth more (tradewise) than Baker and Moochie's expiring contracts. I'm still not a fan of the trade, but at the end of the day we made our depth better while not screwing our chance of going under the cap as many people are saying. If it doesn't work out we have his and Allan's contracts coming off the books in 3 years, until then he is just an upgrade for our bench.

we get moochie and say "well he'll come off the books next season". then we get nazr and vin and say "they'll come off the books next season". then we trade for mo taylor and now we're saying "he'll come off the books AFTER next season". you notice a pattern here? the value of these guys are when they expire so why keep exchanging the expiring deals now for a player who's worth is an expiring deal as well, only ONE YEAR LATER?

on hand, isiah is acquiring picks and trying to build through the draft or use them in deals. i'm cool with that. that's why i don't mind the nazr trade that much.

but on the other, he exchanges two expiring deals this offseason and a 2nd round pick for a redundant player with ONE MORE season. i don't get that logic.

the only thing where the end justifies the means is that he's going to be shopping kurt and/or sweets HARD this offseason and keep the PF spot to 2 players. if that's the ultimate plan, then this move makes sense (i still don't like it). but it's a weird way to go about it. you don't accumulate these type of players in the same position hoping to be able to move one or more of them later.

i still think he has a plan even tho i absolutely HATE this last deal. we'll have to see what he does this summer.
djsunyc
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2/25/2005  10:18 AM
Posted by Nalod:

I still don't understand the mo T. thing. Would have not been cheaper to just buy out baker and use the Rocket Pick another way? Moochie expires this year, and was only 3 mil!

Why take on bigger contracts and talk of the value of them expiring? Just don't take them period!

exactly nalod. buying out vin and moochie and not doing anything else would've been better b/c we'd STILL have that 2nd round pick.

if i presented to you this scenario:

this summer we trade the expiring deals of vin, moochie, and a #2 for mo taylor, i think EVERYBODY here would be pissed. just b/c it happened 3 months earlier doesn't really change the fact that the trade is still horrible.

but alas, i think i've made enough posts about this trade...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 02/25/2005 10:20:55]
djsunyc
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2/25/2005  10:25 AM
Posted by Solace:

Malik Rose goes for a first rounder or two second rounders and another heinous contract at next year's deadline. Jerome Williams goes for a few second rounders at next year's deadline. Mo Taylor goes for a first rounder when he's expiring. Penny and Tim possibly go in a larger scale trade. Suddenly we're talking a lot of picks during a short period, along with a lot of expiring deals, which we could package together for a superstar or two, or just let expire and build a young core with all the picks.

the spurs had to trade 2 1st round picks to get rid of malik rose. we'll have to move at least 1 pick to get rid of him. i don't think he's going anywhere. jerome williams value right now is that of an expiring contract in 07/08. nobody is giving you 2nd round picks for a hustle player making $7+mil when you can draft those in the 2nd round.

all signs are pointing towards this team being pretty bad for the next year or two but not bad enough to land #1. that's the part that makes me shake my head.
s3231
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2/25/2005  10:33 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by s3231:

This is a simple concept yet it is the only reason I can see for Isiah doing the Taylor trade, I think he did the trade only because he believes that when Taylor has an expiring contract it will be worth more (tradewise) than Baker and Moochie's expiring contracts. I'm still not a fan of the trade, but at the end of the day we made our depth better while not screwing our chance of going under the cap as many people are saying. If it doesn't work out we have his and Allan's contracts coming off the books in 3 years, until then he is just an upgrade for our bench.

we get moochie and say "well he'll come off the books next season". then we get nazr and vin and say "they'll come off the books next season". then we trade for mo taylor and now we're saying "he'll come off the books AFTER next season". you notice a pattern here? the value of these guys are when they expire so why keep exchanging the expiring deals now for a player who's worth is an expiring deal as well, only ONE YEAR LATER?









I understand what you are saying and I agree with it. We can't just keep trading for guys that have another year left (especially if its not a good player). As I said before, I'm not a fan of the trade but I think I understand what Isiah is trying to do. Taylor is better than Moochie and Baker, that is a given. While Isiah is trying to build for the future I think he also knows that he has to make this team better now. Taylor gives us more depth until after next season when he has an expiring contract and we can either let him walk or use him in a trade for someone else. When he does have an expiring contract however, he will have more value to us than Moochie and Baker would have had with their expiring contracts.

Of course Isiah will also be shopping Kurt hard this offseason (hell it could even be Sweets for the right deal) so maybe this a deal made just to solidify the position for when we trade one of our other PF's.

Again, I'm not a fan of the Houston deal but it does have a positive thing or two that can come out of it. Isiah has a plan, lets see what he does this summer.

[Edited by - s3231 on 02/25/2005 10:35:07]
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
Solace
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2/25/2005  10:44 AM
I don't know. All I know is I can't see how Isiah could possibly think Mo Taylor is a good player. He's awful. If we're not tanking on purpose, I don't know what this is.
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gunsnewing
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2/25/2005  11:13 AM
Posted by s3231:

This is a simple concept yet it is the only reason I can see for Isiah doing the Taylor trade, I think he did the trade only because he believes that when Taylor has an expiring contract it will be worth more (tradewise) than Baker and Moochie's expiring contracts. I'm still not a fan of the trade, but at the end of the day we made our depth better while not screwing our chance of going under the cap as many people are saying. If it doesn't work out we have his and Allan's contracts coming off the books in 3 years, until then he is just an upgrade for our bench.

exactly. you hit the nail right on the head! Taylor's 9.5million dollar contract will be more valuable then baker and moochie's. You are missing the point if you just want to buy out all our trade assets. So what if Taylor has 1 more year! big deal Houston has 2 more years! And taylor & rose unlike baker and moochie will produce in the meantime.

What if Isiah trades Sweetney,TT & Penny this offseason or at the deadline for a ex:Brandor Randolph. Then all of a sudden we dont have a glut at PF because we'll have an allstar calibur PF. This team willbe a lot better by 2007 and even better once H20 is off the books.


AGAIN DON'T WORRY ABOUT HOW LONG CONTRACTS ARE AS LONG AS THEY EXPIRE AFTER 2008 ALONG WITH ALLAN HOUSTON'S CONTRACT!!!!!!because until then we'll have a roster of overpaid players like H20.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 02/25/2005 11:26:21]
newyorknewyork
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2/25/2005  2:56 PM
If I were to guess what Zeke plan is.

#1 He will package draft picks along with the expiring contracts for big name players.

Or #2 He has targeted a big that he wants and he will go after him full throttle with expiring deals and draft picks to either trade or move up in the draft for him.

Taylor's deal I don't get at all. I don't get how we couldn't get there draft pick out of them. Other than an upgrade in talent over Baker & Norris. But we could have upgradedby making a cheap deal for a 2nd rd pick or buying a late first. Muhammad for Taylor and 2 draft picks. KT for Rose and 2 more draft picks would have been smarter.
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knixphan
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2/25/2005  3:36 PM
I agree with guns about Houston's contract being the milestone of any plan Zeke would have..it's gotta revolve around H20's departure. (we can thank Layden for that situation) - Steph, and definitely Craw as SG/backup pg will still be young enough to lead an athletic squad to the finals when Allan walks. So why not plan for that day, and get your ducks in a row to make the serious run in '08...I could see that...but no way a GM would say that to the public, if it were true-

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matt
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2/25/2005  3:48 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by s3231:

This is a simple concept yet it is the only reason I can see for Isiah doing the Taylor trade, I think he did the trade only because he believes that when Taylor has an expiring contract it will be worth more (tradewise) than Baker and Moochie's expiring contracts. I'm still not a fan of the trade, but at the end of the day we made our depth better while not screwing our chance of going under the cap as many people are saying. If it doesn't work out we have his and Allan's contracts coming off the books in 3 years, until then he is just an upgrade for our bench.

exactly. you hit the nail right on the head! Taylor's 9.5million dollar contract will be more valuable then baker and moochie's. You are missing the point if you just want to buy out all our trade assets. So what if Taylor has 1 more year! big deal Houston has 2 more years! And taylor & rose unlike baker and moochie will produce in the meantime.

What if Isiah trades Sweetney,TT & Penny this offseason or at the deadline for a ex:Brandor Randolph. Then all of a sudden we dont have a glut at PF because we'll have an allstar calibur PF. This team willbe a lot better by 2007 and even better once H20 is off the books.


AGAIN DON'T WORRY ABOUT HOW LONG CONTRACTS ARE AS LONG AS THEY EXPIRE AFTER 2008 ALONG WITH ALLAN HOUSTON'S CONTRACT!!!!!!because until then we'll have a roster of overpaid players like H20.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 02/25/2005 11:26:21]

I like the 2008 Houston idea; untill then, nothing cap-wise matters because of Houston. Start worrying about cap after then, but untill then he should pile up as many draft picks as possible.

But just out of curiosity, when is LeBron a free agent?
BRIGGS
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2/25/2005  4:22 PM
Posted by Nalod:

I still don't understand the mo T. thing. Would have not been cheaper to just buy out baker and use the Rocket Pick another way? Moochie expires this year, and was only 3 mil!

Why take on bigger contracts and talk of the value of them expiring? Just don't take them period!

Thats why i thought we were getting a 1st round pick because it's almost a lock when you take on slary, you get a major benefit with it.
Mo Taylor is NOT a major benefit and we gave them what could be pick 33-40 next year for the help! I mean it could come down to it where we get pick 30 from the Spurs and give up pick 34, so what????

I didnt even like the deal when we had a pick coming to us! The otherside of it is almost ludicrous. I think many of us have a decent understanding of basketball, and when a huge majority of fans[which most are big isiah backers think this deal stinks and start calling for isiah's head, well I think that any pompous idiot in MSG suites who think that this was a smart trade should listen to the masses]
Weve had so many frikin mistakes over the last 5 years, that no ONE gets a mulligan over something like this. If we accept it, than we accept medicority and poor mamangement. There is no undoing it, but this is a HUGE clink on the armor.
RIP Crushalot😞
gunsnewing
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2/25/2005  4:26 PM
Lebron is a free agent after 2008 for what it's worth. H20 will be gone and we could send Cleveland the expiring contracts of KT,JYD,Rose + draft picks so that they get something back just incase Lebron tells them hes gonna explore the market in the offseason.
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