[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

I'm sorry, but we need a total reconfiguration of this team
Author Thread
BRIGGS
Posts: 53275
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 7/30/2002
Member: #303
2/22/2005  11:10 PM
if you take a broad look at the east, it's so easy to see that we have almost no chance to get out of medicority for years unless we have insane luck. I just feel there are teams that will be on the rise and teams that are already there and our hope for the next few years is having a poor east.
I mean if things hit right we could have a 1 year run like we did when Pitino was here and get 45 wins somehow, but this is not sustainable, nor does this club even come close to a glimpse of a championship team +++ the nBA in general is down, especially our division.

I mean Detroit toys with us, I dont know if they tried their hardest, if we could win 1 out of 10 games, maybe we could, but I doubt it.

Kurt Thoma is going to be 33 next year, Sweetney is much more of a sixth man type

Nazr, well let's hope that he just needs rest because other than a few games he has been BRUTAL for awhile.
TimThomas, Penny, no backups anywhere

I mean Kurt Thomas is playing high level ball, even his contract is not horrible. But you know what Isiah, from reading his press clippings wont deal him because hes one of our tough guys, but what the whole team needs is reconfiguration and any value this player has, wont be with a winning Knick organization.


This team MIGHt have to take a larger step or two back to move forward, because iMHO, we are just ENTERINg the quagmire.

Ill say it again, the ONLy thing that will expedite things is by tanking this season, and relaizing that next season might be bad to, and get what we can and try to clear it out.


Have a plan of attack, get some 7 footers who can play, get some athletes on the wing. get a real PG who distributes. get a team that plays hard D+R.
RIP Crushalot😞
AUTOADVERT
BigSm00th
Posts: 24504
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/9/2001
Member: #178
USA
2/23/2005  12:32 AM
I totally agree with Briggs. Knicks are nowhere near where they should. This team stinks, plain and simple.

Tear it all down, Knicks fans can take rebuilding. With guys like Marvin Williams, Rudy Gay, and Andrew Bogut coming up in the lottery, a strong team could be built with 2-3 years of high draft picks and smart moves.

I'd rather lose for 3 years and have some sort of direction than be 42-40 for the remainder of Marbury's time here and never making it out of the 1st round.

But that's just me, others want to get CWebb so the Knicks can win 1 more playoff game. Give me a break.

Trading for CWebb is like a man getting shot in the chest with a shotgun, staggering backwards into a street and getting hit by a car, then the paramedic on the scene giving this person a bandaid.

That's the equivalent.
#Knickstaps
Rich
Posts: 27410
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 12/30/2003
Member: #511
USA
2/23/2005  2:19 AM
I agree as well, but I think that it's too early to say that Sweetney's ceiling is as a sixth man.
Mac
Posts: 20767
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/8/2003
Member: #470
Japan
2/23/2005  4:47 AM
i've been rooting for the draft for a while... NY needs multiple lottery picks in successive years to have a chance a title. When is this "next lebron" going to declare?

DEMETRIUS WALKER
http://dynamic.si.cnn.com/si_online/covers/issues/2005/0124.html
Kwazimodal
Posts: 20896
Alba Posts: 5
Joined: 8/3/2004
Member: #728
2/23/2005  6:31 AM
This trade deadline is a good test of how serious Isiah is about putting this team on the right track.Passing on Webber would be a good sign IMO.

Webber would be good if we had a window in which to win a championship and he was the missing piece but thats not the case here.

Unfortunately the Knicks are playing so poorly these days that they dont have to tank.As long as no deals are made before the deadline,I dont see that changing anytime soon.

firefly
Posts: 23186
Alba Posts: 17
Joined: 7/26/2004
Member: #721
United Kingdom
2/23/2005  6:34 AM
Mac, speaking of which, can anyone post the article on Demetrius Walker? I can find it anywhere on the web.

Thanx
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
2/23/2005  8:24 AM
Let's keep Marbury and Ariza and surround Marbs with some decent starters before giving up on Marbury. As far as getting a real PG who distributes, I'm not sure there's any PG in the league who could more assists than (or even as many as) Marbury gets on *this* squad
MaTT4281
Posts: 33881
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #538
USA
2/23/2005  8:33 AM
Bonn, I'm with you on holding onto Marbury, but there is a difference between distributing the ball and collecting assists. When I think of distributing the ball, I think of good ball movement, guys passing the ball 3 or 4 times to find the open man. I'm not saying Marbury can't be part of that movement, but he does have a tendency to dominate the ball.
s3231
Posts: 23162
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #544
USA
2/23/2005  8:54 AM
I know this might sound silly to some of you, but I think if we give Sweets major minutes and he learns how to stay out of foul trouble, he can give you 17 ppg and 9 rpg for fun. I would really love to see Sweets start for several games straight by the end of the season. I got to admit that I wasn't really sure if this kid could develop into an above average PF earlier on. However, I think he has it. He definitely has the tools, anyone that saw last night's game could see Sweets just have his way with anyone on route to getting a great look at the basket (he just couldn't finish them).
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
fishmike
Posts: 53199
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
2/23/2005  9:25 AM
Briggs, how long do you think its going to take? We have had a new GM for one year. Do you honestly think the guys you mentioned are going to be here in 2 years? Was the GM in Denver for the all star game trying to trade for Webber or was he scouting college games?

I dont think your being negative, rather impatient. It would be nice to say "I dont like this group" and snap your fingers and have a do-over. Only problem is we had a $90mm payroll consisting of such stars as McDyess, Ward, Eisley, KVH, Shandon Anderson, Spoon, Doleac, Houston, Harrington, Mutumbo... its unreal when you think of it.

You can say we took on money and that means we are trying to win right away, but the only way we were dumping some of those guys was to take on more money.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
Posts: 32183
Alba Posts: 14
Joined: 2/11/2005
Member: #871
2/23/2005  11:14 AM
I agree with you Briggs on everything except for Sweets, I will state it again, this guy has less career starts than Ariza. The same was said of O'Neal with the Blazers, he was more of a sixth man and stuff. Let this kid mature, start Ariza (nobody is going to take TT or Penny off your hands so stop showcasing them), I would seriously think about seeing what you could get for Marbury during the summer (I am not sure he will survive a rebuilding era), I thought the whole idea of re-signing KT was that you could trade him and get something for him rather than him just walking away last year, I guess his value must have drop or Zeke really doesn't want to trade him. And if Houston was a real captain he would in the gym everyday coaching Jamal on shot selections and educating him. Starks did it for him when he knew he was being forced out.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
BRIGGS
Posts: 53275
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 7/30/2002
Member: #303
2/23/2005  11:27 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:

I agree with you Briggs on everything except for Sweets, I will state it again, this guy has less career starts than Ariza. The same was said of O'Neal with the Blazers, he was more of a sixth man and stuff. Let this kid mature, start Ariza (nobody is going to take TT or Penny off your hands so stop showcasing them), I would seriously think about seeing what you could get for Marbury during the summer (I am not sure he will survive a rebuilding era), I thought the whole idea of re-signing KT was that you could trade him and get something for him rather than him just walking away last year, I guess his value must have drop or Zeke really doesn't want to trade him. And if Houston was a real captain he would in the gym everyday coaching Jamal on shot selections and educating him. Starks did it for him when he knew he was being forced out.

Heck Im all for Mike Sweetney starting. All this hype about KT, if he wa so good, we wouldnt be under .500 with him as a starter for like 5 years now? The reason why I say Sweetney might be better off in a sixth man role is because he has to much power and sskill for many second line players and he would be effective towards a tired 1st liner. but we saw what ben Wallace did to him, made him look bad.
RIP Crushalot😞
eViL
Posts: 25412
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 1/21/2004
Member: #561
USA
2/23/2005  11:37 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

but we saw what ben Wallace did to him, made him look bad.

C'mon now, Ben Wallace makes a lot of people look bad.

---

As far as the rest of this thread goes, the team is being reconfigured. I think most of the people here know that a total rebuild doesn't happen overnight. Maybe, like fishmike said, we need to exercise some more patience.

I'm not very dissappointed with this season. My expectations were pretty low (1st or 2nd round playoff exit). If I had championship hopes and we ended up in the lottery this might be a different story. Maybe I just don't get as fired up as other people do. I just don't get too emotional over Knicks losses anymore.

[Edited by - eViL on 02/23/2005 11:48:13]
check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
Pharzeone
Posts: 32183
Alba Posts: 14
Joined: 2/11/2005
Member: #871
2/23/2005  11:38 AM
[/quote]

Heck Im all for Mike Sweetney starting. All this hype about KT, if he wa so good, we wouldnt be under .500 with him as a starter for like 5 years now? The reason why I say Sweetney might be better off in a sixth man role is because he has to much power and sskill for many second line players and he would be effective towards a tired 1st liner. but we saw what ben Wallace did to him, made him look bad.
[/quote]

Yeah, I understand what you mean, but getting outwork by Big Ben ain't nothing to worry about for a young big man. I would like to see Sweets play like 30+ on a guy like Big Ben and see if he could wear them down by just trying to stop him for long periods of the game. The problem is that, a defender like Wallace gets left off the hook when Sweets go out, because KT is just going to shoot jumpers and not bang. What the Knicks need a more multiple bangers always putting pressure on other big men. I don't expect Sweets to do this by himself only in 2nd season and not even starting. Also Sweets must become better passer out of the double teams. Sometimes he just force it. I mean I am not that high on Bogut like you but he is a banger and that is what you need. More willing bangers.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Solace
Posts: 30002
Alba Posts: 20
Joined: 10/30/2003
Member: #479
USA
2/23/2005  11:45 AM
The problem with giving Sweets a lot of minutes is he puts up good stats and then you're giving him a big contract just when your other big contracts are expiring, thus you miss a rare chance to get under the cap. I'd really like to see what we could do if we just get $10 - $15 MM under the cap for one offseason.
...
Mac
Posts: 20767
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/8/2003
Member: #470
Japan
2/23/2005  12:33 PM
Posted by Solace:

The problem with giving Sweets a lot of minutes is he puts up good stats and then you're giving him a big contract just when your other big contracts are expiring, thus you miss a rare chance to get under the cap. I'd really like to see what we could do if we just get $10 - $15 MM under the cap for one offseason.

Players get paid on potential as well. (Eddy Curry)
Solace
Posts: 30002
Alba Posts: 20
Joined: 10/30/2003
Member: #479
USA
2/23/2005  1:23 PM
Posted by Mac:
Posted by Solace:

The problem with giving Sweets a lot of minutes is he puts up good stats and then you're giving him a big contract just when your other big contracts are expiring, thus you miss a rare chance to get under the cap. I'd really like to see what we could do if we just get $10 - $15 MM under the cap for one offseason.

Players get paid on potential as well. (Eddy Curry)

Teams who give an 8-figure contract to a player whose never done it yet are retarted. Yes, it does happen, but it's rare and VERY OFTEN a huge blunder.

I don't get what your example of Eddy Curry has to do with this, though.
...
Pharzeone
Posts: 32183
Alba Posts: 14
Joined: 2/11/2005
Member: #871
2/23/2005  1:38 PM
Posted by Solace:

The problem with giving Sweets a lot of minutes is he puts up good stats and then you're giving him a big contract just when your other big contracts are expiring, thus you miss a rare chance to get under the cap. I'd really like to see what we could do if we just get $10 - $15 MM under the cap for one offseason.

Yeah, I know, I hope Zeke or whoever it will be in the future will be good at negogiating. But you can't be scare to develop talent when it there to save money. That is Clipper basketball. And I know we are bad right now but God help us if we are that bad. See I don't mind trading Marbury, if we are really going to rebuild. Got to get expiring contracts with multiple picks (can only assume a contender wants him so picks will be late for a couple of years), and young talent to boot. Truth is Marbury is not the problem on this team because he can play minutes and still put up #s. Allan Houston should just wear a armani ski mask along with his suits because it is now the biggest joke. He collects his max check with Marbury. And is condition is not going to get any better. It is chronic, so either play or retire.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
fishmike
Posts: 53199
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
2/23/2005  1:39 PM
forget about getting under the cap. The only time getting under the cap matter is if you stink enough to have 2-3 impact players in their rookie contracts. The only way to get that is to stink enough for 2-3 years to have top picks. Denver was able to do that w/ Nene amd Melo. The Spurs had Tony Parker and Ginobili under rookie contracts when they signed Nesterovich. Utah had AK47 in his rookie deal when they overpain Okur/Boozer (how's that working out). Miami had Wade and Butler under rookie contracts when they signed Odom (only made possible by ACarter's agent SNAFU).

The Knicks wont have those kind of situations. Even if we didnt have Marbury or Crawford and didnt take on long money KVH, Houston, Shandon, Spoon, Eisley.. these guys are bad enough to keep you in the lottery and good enough to win you 32-35 games, ensuring you cant draft top talent.

Cap space never was a viable option for this team when you consider the situation we were in. Cap space as a goal just doesnt make sense. What does make sense is executing in the draft, and buying extra picks even if they are late to fill the end of your bench. We could desperatly use guys like Earl Watson, Duhon, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels, David Harrison...

Instead we have Bruno, Brewer, Moochie, Baker... thats getting us nowhere. I will say Isiah may have been hired too late to scout w/ confidence which is why he went the veteran route. Lets see what he does this year as we know he's been all over the place looking at college and European talent.

1) execute in the draft. This is first and formost

2) commit to building around a type of player. Marbury can play an open style of ball but he's solid in the half court also. Our other wing players are mre uptempo run and gun types in Ariza and Crawford, while our frontcourt players are walk it up halfcourt guys like KT, Sweetney and Nazr. Go with one or the other. Pick a stlye of play, draft and get guys accordingly and find a coach for that style.

3) execute in the draft.

4)get lucky on a young MLE player that blossums for you. Maybe Gadzurich or Steven Hunter. Bradd Miller and Ben Wallace are positive examples. Mark Blount and Jerome James are negative ones. Its a bit of a crap shoot.. so I admit there is some luck here (and we need that)

5) execute in the draft.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
Posts: 32183
Alba Posts: 14
Joined: 2/11/2005
Member: #871
2/23/2005  1:55 PM
Posted by fishmike:

forget about getting under the cap. The only time getting under the cap matter is if you stink enough to have 2-3 impact players in their rookie contracts. The only way to get that is to stink enough for 2-3 years to have top picks. Denver was able to do that w/ Nene amd Melo. The Spurs had Tony Parker and Ginobili under rookie contracts when they signed Nesterovich. Utah had AK47 in his rookie deal when they overpain Okur/Boozer (how's that working out). Miami had Wade and Butler under rookie contracts when they signed Odom (only made possible by ACarter's agent SNAFU).

While I agree with most of what you said. You did not indicate that all those teams you mention have been under the cap. When the Spurs signed Nesterovich, they were under because Robinson, Kerr, Smith came off, $90 million came off that is why it was likely they could have sign Kidd. Miami, have been dancing under the cap now since Morning, Hardaway, Thunder "Dan", and Mason came off. They were hurting for awhile now. While drafting well helps you win championships it not important, the same for getting under the cap. Riley had a good point about 2 weeks ago when the Knicks were playing the Heat, he talked about how they had to suffer to get better but they made smart moves, let expiring contracts just expire rather than trade. Drafted well, and signed free-agents that they could later use. Should the Knicks get under the cap, yes. It work well when they did it in '96. Should they draft smarter and develop, yes. I am praying for Sweets to develop. It is hard to believe that after Ewing, Charlie Ward has been the Knicks most successful 1st round pick. Also you have to have the right personnel. Jerry West did both things, got under the cap to sign Shaq, drafted well (Kobe), made significant roster moves, but it didn't pay dividends until he got Jackson the run the day care.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
I'm sorry, but we need a total reconfiguration of this team

©2001-2012 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy