this is courtesy of poster blue seats from realgm. just wanted to share with this board:

I'd like to make another more unified presentation of what thus far separates Marbury from the great scoring PGs of the game.

I do this because, A) I keep hearing people say Marbury is a great PG, even though people like Cousy and his former coach D'Antioni say otherwise. When I say it people ask for proff. I can't prove it by I think these trends are telling. B) I continually see people say "you can't win with a PG leading your team in scoring." History proves that statement blatantly false. There may be others I'm not aware of, but I know of three PGs who led their team to championships as their teams leading scorers:

Clyde, 1973 Knicks.
Magic, 1986 Lakers
Isiah, 1990 Pistons

However, these men not only were good scorers but good playmakers. They not only put up good personal stats but good team stats as well.

I believe one relevant indicator of an effective offense with good "flow" is team assists (TA). Team assists are a total of all assisted shots for the team including, but not limited to, the point guard's assists. High team assists is suggestive of ball movement not solely emanating from the PG position. It's "the pass that leads to the pass that leads to the bucket" approach. It's the antithesis of the ball movement we presently see on the Knicks, where the ball is either held or passed back and forth on the perimeter until late in the clock, then given back to the perimeter for low percentage jumpers.

Below are relevant team assist stats of these great PGs. Without exception these men arrived at clubs which were under performing and produced immediate and lasting positive impacts on team assists and wins, and their departure was equally met by a concomitant falloff in production and success.

Isiah and Magic spent their entire careers with one club and retired before their time for health reasons. Clyde moved once (to Cleveland) in the twilight of his career.


Knicks:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
67 22.0 36-49 (Komives 15.7 ppg/6.2 apg)
68 24.0 43-39 (Clyde rookie 9.0/4.1)
73 26.7 57-25 (Clyde 21.1/5.9, leads team in scoring, wins Championship)
77 23.9 40-42 (17.4/5.3 Clyde's last season as Knick)
78 28.5 43-39 (Monroe/Ray Williams)

Lakers:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
79 28.5 47-35 (Nixon 17.1/9.0 (very impressive))
80 29.4 60-22 (Magic rookie 18/7.3 Championship)
86 29.6 65-17 (Magic 23.9/12.2 leads team in scoring, wins championship)
91 25.5 58-24 (Magic's last healthy season, 19.4 ppg 7.0 rpg 12.5 apg)
92 22.0 39-43 (Threatt 15.1/7.2)

Pistons:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
81 22.2 21-61 (?)
82 24.7 39-43 (Isiah rookie 17/7.
90 24.3 59-23 (Isiah 18.4/9.4 leads team in scoring, wins Championship)
93 23.7 40-42 (Isiah's last healthy year)
95 22.8 28-54 (Dumars )

Now, in contrast, we'll see Marbury has moved around a lot in his young career. And aside from a brief improvement to his first club (Minnesota, which also coincides with the comeuppance of Garnett), at each stop his arrival brings decline and his departure brings a surge. This is the opposite of the greats above.

Minny:
YR/ TA/ Record/ PG Stats
'96 22.8 26-56 (Porter 9.4/5.5)
'97 22.9 40-42 (Marbury 15.8/7.
'98 25.2 45-37 (Marbury 17.7/8.6)
'99 24.4 25-25 (Marbury 17.7/9.3 Brandon 14.2/9. (lockout season)
'00 26.9 50-32 (Brandon 17.1/8.9)

What stands out to me is that Marbury's energy and production over the aging Porter does result in an initial boost to the club, (as does the maturation of Garnett). Note how wins coincide with team assists.

Ironically, adding Brandon and his many assists do not increase team assists and wins... until Marbury departs.

Nets:
98 20.5 43-39 (Cassell 19.6/8.0)
99 18.4 16-34 (Cassell 18/4.8 Marbury 23.4/8.7)
00 20.6 31-51 (Marbury 22.2/8.4)
01 19.5 26-56 (Marbury 23.9/7.6)
02 24.3 50-32 (Kidd 14.7/9.9)

Note again how wins track team assists and that Marbury's team assists struggle to keep up with other premier PGs.

Suns:
01 23.2 51-39 (Kidd 16.9/9.
02 22.4 36-46 (Marbury 20.4/8.1)
03 21.0 44-38 (Marbury 22.3/8.1)
04 19.3 29-53 (Marbury/Eisley/Barbosa)
05 23.1 40-12 (Nash 16.3/11.3)

With the slight exception of years '02 and '03, wins again closely track team assists and in that stat (team assist is what I'm looking at, regardless that his personals don't keep up with them either) Marbury can't keep pace with the premium PGs.

Knicks:
03 22.7 37-45 (Ward 7.2/4.6 Eisley 9.1/5.4)
04 20.7 39-43 (Marbury/Ward/Eisley)
05 19.6 20-31 (Marbury 21.3/8.2)

If ever there were an opportunity for Steph to reverse the trends it was with the Knicks, known for years as a slow, unatheletic, jumpshooting squad with poor ball movement and substandard PGs. Even with a clean house, and presumably a better, retooled lineup, Steph keeps pace with his career trends and we see an overall reduction in team assists and wins.

The point here is not to bash Marbury by directly comparing him to the best of the NBA's point guards. The point is however to show how his career trends differ from theirs and why he has yet to earn himself the distinction his personal stats might otherwise afford him. It's not the scoring, it's not the personal assists, it's the ball movement, the offense, the flow.

So now we're blaming Marbury for his team not being good passers? Marbury is an all-star talent surrounded by a few decent prospects and lots of scrubs. Do people really think if Nash were here KT would be averaging 26ppg?

Also, to me the argument falls apart when the third highest team assists total, after two different ShowTime Lakers squads, is a mediocre Knicks team: 78 28.5 43-39 (Monroe/Ray Williams)

Also, the Pistons averaged more team assists in Isiah's rookie year when they were 39-43 than they did in the 1990 championship year.

There's no consistency to the effect TAs have on a team. It's an interesting article, but I don't think the guy makes a convincing argument.

Posted by fishmike:

I kinda miss the point. Are we saying Marbury isnt as good as Isiah, Magic or Clyde? Who's going to debate that?

What he said...also, PG's aren't considered GREAT until they win a championship...until then, only their fans think they are great.

Marbs wins a championship, he's one of the best ever.

Heck, if he gets to a championship, he atleast get's involved in the conversation.

As a knick fan and a fan of the game, if I had to start my team with a point guard and I had the first pick, I'd have to go with marbs...20/8 career...it's nice to know you have a possible 46 points from marbs alone (30 points on his own, plus another 16 off the 8 assists).

I missed the point of the article myself, and I want to get all my Knicks are great comments in before tonights possible massacre.

If it is a massacre, I hope if happens before American Idol starts tonight with the women.

Peace.

his arrival brings decline and his departure brings a surge.

This claim that Marbury's teams get better when he leaves is simply a myth. First, It took the T-Wolves FIVE years just to make it out of the first round after Marbury left. I bet a Marbury/Garnett combo could have made it past the 1st rd much sooner. Second, if you look at the Suns' record last season, they were not better after he left than they were with him. Now, it's a different season with a different and healthier roster. The *only* team that got better when Marbury left was the Nets. And I think everyone of the 29 teams in the league would have gotten better in 2001 if their starting PG had left and Kidd had joined them.

04 20.7 39-43 (Marbury/Ward/Eisley)

What's the breakdown pre-Marbury and with Marbury for your assist #? That would be a better assessment of Marbury than lumping the #s together for Marbury, Ward, and Eisley. The record can obviously be broken down to 25-22 with Marbury and 14-21 Pre-Marbury.

BTW, opinions of Marbury change depending on how good his team is/teammates are. The last time he played a full season on a good team, here's what his boss (Jerry Coangelo) said. (I suspect we'll be saying it again when he logs in 42 mpg for 82 games and has a strong supporting cast):

I love his toughness, No. 1; I love his competitiveness, No. 2," Colangelo said. "In the world of sports or the world of life, who do you want with you in the trenches in time of war? Stephon Marbury is the kind of guy I want with me in the foxhole.

That was when Marbury led the Suns in 2002-3 and played a full season for 40 mpg on two bad ankles that each required surgery in the offseason

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 02/22/2005 19:55:00]