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Thoughts incl. Chad Ford's Trade Article
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bbaii
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2/18/2005  3:35 PM
Hey All,

I've been reading the forums here for a while and felt inspired to post on this subject since I, like everyone else here, I'm guessing, just wants a succesful Knicks rebuild with the help of some Ewing-draft-style ping pong ball luck and the development of our solid (but not great) rooks. I'm not certain I can stomach rooting for them to lose though.

Unfortunately, I go to school in Massachusetts, so I almost never get to see the Knicks play while I am here. I try to make up for this by reading lots of articles, recaps, analysis and stats as well as watching the GameCast and listening to a radio broadcast as available. It's just not the same though, I can't really get a sense of, say, Crawford's movement without the ball.

That said, I still think I have an idea about what I am talking about, and I think most people would agree with me when I say that we need to focus on building up our frontcourt. I say that with 3 caveats though:

1) Nazr Mohammad - Everyone seems down on Nazr on this board, more or less. He's not a great player, obviously, but he was having a near-breakout year for a while until the slide happened. Even still, he's averaging 11.1 PPG (with a .512 FG%) and 8.3 RPG in just 28.4 MPG. This is very solid stuff from a youngish (he's 27), running big man who gives us the closest thing to an inside presence on D on the team. I don't claim that he's a savior or even really good, but he's a solid player that I'd be happy to give time to.

2) Kurt Thomas - Poor Kurt. I don't know about how sluggish he is at this point, but Kurt's a seriously useful utility player. He's a very good rebounder (7th most 'bounds\gm in the league) and he's averaging a double-double at 11.5 PPG (on .474 FG%) and 10 RPG per game. And he does this all in 26.7 MPG. This is a career year for him. Plus, he always used to be a guy who always was trying hard. I can't say whether he is any more because I can't watch the games in this state, but it's hard for me to believe that he's getting 3 more 'bounds per game than his career average and not trying hard.

3) Jamal Crawford - People seem to like this kid, but I really don't. Isiah has a good eye for talent and I'm already writing off the year, so I am willing to be patient, but just look at his numbers and his shot selection (on the rare times I can watch a game) and it seems obvious to me that he's a black hole. He shoots .397 from the floor, which is awful, especially considering that he takes almost 17 shots a game. It makes me especially mad that he's averaging 1.5 less assists this year than he was at Chicago last year (and yet it's said
that he can reliably run the point in stretches). He shoots ok from beyond the arc (.356 ain't bad) and has hit some miracle game winners, but Tim Thomas hit one the other day and I'd still like to run him out on a rail. Crawford's young, athletic and fearless, these are good things, but he seems to be a huge drag on the team and I know he's generally a wasteful offensive presence.

Just as a point of comparison, while Jamal Crawford seems to be pretty well liked on the board and Kurt and Nazr are pretty disliked, it's Jamal who probably hurts the team most. As evidence, consider plus minus ratings: Kurt has a so-so net +/- rating of +2.0, Nazr's is a mediocre -0.9 (marginally worse than Kurt's rating). Jamal's rating? -3.3.

I'm not saying Nazr and Kurt should necessarily stay or Jamal should necessarily go, but I think we should recalibrate our sense of these players' values. I don't care how little one likes Kurt, he's worth keeping over acquiring Kwame Brown who's 6 feet and 11 inches of wasted basketball life or some similarly bad move (like a Jalen Rose pick up).

That said, Chad Ford's article mentioned a whole bunch of expiring contracts. Amongst them were 4 guys who seem worth looking at as potential pick ups to help improve the lineup. None of them will be saviors, but I do believe that all of them are useful.

1) Vlad Radmanovic - He's a young (24), athletic 6-10 PF who's averaging 12.5 PPG and 4.7 RPG in 30.1 MPG. Nazr's numbers are better almost across the board, but Nazr costs more than Vlad's piddly $2.3 mil. Moreover, Vlad's net +\- is second best on his team at 11.2(!!!)

Vlad apparently WANTS to leave, but the two catches with Vlad are that a) Sonics would be wise to resign him and b) Vlad's been getting a lot of attention and may wind up commanding an unfairly high price.

2) Ronald 'Flip' Murray - Remember this guy? He was a 'came-out-of-nowhere' powerhouse for the Supes while Ray was out last year? Guy was a monster and now he's cooled off and they don't play him. I think he may have been injured for a while BUT he only costs ~$700,000 AND he's a SG which would mean that we could still have a 3 guard rotation and rest Steph more (with Crawford sliding in to the PG role). I am pretty certain that Allan Houston's career is done, even though I am sure his salary will continue to be a pox on our house long after he's useful, so I think having a guy like Flip, on the off chance he blows up again, is a good call since, if nothing else, his cost is negligible and the Sonics have no particular reason to sign him as they hardly play him. I would love to see if we could coax him out from the Sonics before the trade deadline for Sundov or Brewer or something. Flip won't help our frontcourt (obviously), but he can't be less good than Moochie, has a cool nickname and he's cheap, even if he doesn't return to his play of the first half of last year.

3) Eddie Griffin - He's 22, 6-10 and getting 8 PPG, 6.2 RPG and 1.6 BPG out of 21.3 minutes. He has a +4.4 net +\- rating (3rd on the team). Also, he's currently getting under a mil. I thought I read that he's a bit of a headcase, but he wouldn't exactly be a big investment.

4) Bo Outlaw - He's 33, sure, but he's 6-8, costs under a mil and has an awesome last name. I'd rather have good old Bo than alcoholic, fat and useless Vin Baker.


None of these guys are THE answer, but they're out there, either as useful trading pieces if we can snatch them up for REALLY cheap or, if they play well, as utilty guys who have a great return for their money in terms of how well they play. I can't see the Knicks getting a superstar in the draft in the next decade or so (there's always a worse team) so I want to move the team in the direction of building a group of winners around Steph right now, trading for or buying the contract of a superstar who can play nice with Steph and the media.
Once we get that superstar, then we're a contenteder. To that end, picking up Flip and Griffin (esp.) would be solid, low-risk calls.

- Ben
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Knickss208
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2/18/2005  3:57 PM
Wow that was a great post; really well said. I think I have to agree with you on a lot of things. I am def one of those people that cannot root for the Knicks to lose, but more and more I am coming to my senses that it would be nice to get a high draft pick. I just dont think this team is that bad

Nazr is a good player that really over performed. I think if we are serious about rebuilding, or at least interested in improving our team significantly this year we need to start Sweetney. His rebounding has been outstanding and he has really produced with limited minutes. I think Nazr can still be an impact player, but it should be off the bench.

Kurt meanwhile has been a true warrior. There are several fans in this forum who do not like Kurt, but for his price and the defensive value he brings to the team he is def worth every penny. I dont think people realize how much worse this team would be without him.

The points about Crawford you made were dead on. I dont think Isaih signed Crawford with the intentions of him being a starter. Unfortunately Houston couldnt come back and he was thrown into the starting role. Crawford' shot selection is atrocious and really make me pull my hair out of my head sometimes. I think he still has a lot of room for improvement, but his raw talent is unbelievable. I think he was a great pick up by Isaih and after some good coaching he will be a great Knick player.

For the free agents you talked about I think I would want Eddie Griffin the most. He is a tremendous shot blocker and an explosive off the ball offensive player. Not to say you are gonna get that many point out of him, but he can do the Marcus Cmby put backs and grab the rebounds. He is def a player I would love to see in a Knicks uniform, but I think he is going to get a pretty big offer from other teams so he wont be cheap to get.

All in all I hope the Knicks do well in the second half. Whether that mean the playoffs or the lottery, Ill leave that up to fate. Ill still watch and root for them every game though.

GO KNICKS!!!

[Edited by - Knickss208 on 02/18/2005 16:00:11]
MaTT4281
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2/18/2005  4:14 PM
Hey man, welcome to the boards.
As for the post, I disagree on a few things, but this is just all personal oppinion.
I liked Nazr playing when he had the great beginning, but with our lack of perimeter defense, we really need some shot blockers or intimidators in the paint. Nazr may be a nice scoring option down low, especially when him and Sweets are really the only low post options we have, he doesn't provide any real defense. Bottom line, I don't mind having him around, but if he's our starting C for the next few years, we're in trouble.
For Kurt, he's been great for us this year. I don't dislike him, but I do want him gone. Only reason for this is Sweetney. It's clear Mike is a part of this team's future, while Kurt's days are numbered. I've been hoping for a change in the starting lineup ever since he got the start last year in Denver, but in that game, as is the problem right now, he got into early foul trouble.
Jamal is probably the most frustrating player on this team, and I can see why you may not like him, but you have to remember, he is only 24 and is still a work in progress. Last game vs. the bucks, he looked good at the point. Hopefully he can keep up the play making there and give Marbs some consistant rest.
I like the 4 guys you named, especially Flip, but I don't see those teams trading for anything we'd offer for them, unless we gave up some picks.
Anyway, welcome again.
MikeFromNY
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2/18/2005  4:18 PM
Jesus....You guys sure are "wordy", ain't ya?
MaTT4281
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2/18/2005  4:22 PM
Posted by MikeFromNY:

Jesus....You guys sure are "wordy", ain't ya?
He started it
BRIGGS
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2/18/2005  4:30 PM
first off, Kurt Thomas is averaging 37 minutes a a game, not 27. He gets to the foul line less than back up Gs and he's our starting PF. If we had ONE dominating defensive player, we would not be LAST absolute LAST in the league in FG% D. When I hear Mike Breen call him a first team all nBA defense I always chuckle. Remember a cat named Tim Duncan who plays the same position? KT is in the bottom 3rd in terms of scoring average at the 4. he is a pretty good rebounder, but over rated in that area as well because we dont have any rebounding guards. ANY GM would trade KT for Kwame Brown yesterday. I agree that he is paid fairly, but lets see the back end of the contract vs. production. thats whats scares other team from him.



Nazr is not a bad player, but rather a guy who would be good with a power 4. the problem is we dont have a power 4-5, we just have good players there, which isn't good enough to win.


One big problem with the Knicks is they lead the league in players over 30. This is probably the HIGHEST red flag to me of all,that and FG% defense. they are 1A and 1B. That why we need multiple draft picks and wise use of the MLE. we need to take the end of the bench more seriously, every bench spot, or roster spot should have menaing. I think we learned these lessons with the crap that is there now.
this team needs more athletiscm, size, speed, strength , we have some guys who can score, but those things I just mentioned concern mainly defense and rebounding+the ability to fast break

Kurt thomas is a good player, but I want to go in a different direction. hes only going to get slower from here
RIP Crushalot😞
martin
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2/18/2005  4:38 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

Kurt thomas is a good player, but I want to go in a different direction. hes only going to get slower from here

agreed here. Isn't it strange to see that KT has shown just a small bit of quickness in the last 10 games or so by putting the ball on the floor and going to the basket? They look funny. Maybe the D was just so surprised that he did it.
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Marv
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2/18/2005  4:53 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by BRIGGS:

Kurt thomas is a good player, but I want to go in a different direction. hes only going to get slower from here

agreed here. Isn't it strange to see that KT has shown just a small bit of quickness in the last 10 games or so by putting the ball on the floor and going to the basket? They look funny. Maybe the D was just so surprised that he did it.

Yes! I'm still freaked by a move he made a few games ago when he drove the baseline for a reverse layup. I was thinking, "Whoa, when did Trevor get old and insane-looking?"
bbaii
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2/18/2005  5:01 PM
Briggs,

First off, you're totally right on his minutes, 37, not 27. Typo on my part, my bad.

I'd like to take a closer look at your critique of Kurt, but first let's start off by recognizing that I 1oo% agree with your central point that Kurt is old and, ultimately, it makes sense to go in a different direction.

You criticize the fact that he goes to the line so little and yes, that's ridiculous from a starting 4, but I think it's pretty clear why that is: he's a jump shooter, always has been. To put things in to perspective, consider that Kurt makes 81% of his shots jumpers and only 23% of his shots (jumpers and inside play included) can be counted as 'inside' shots. It's hard to go to the line when you're playing like that. I'm not saying that's the best way for a 4 to play, but it explains his total absence at the line.

Breen calling him first-team for D is outrageous, nuff said. The Duncan point was spot on.

Kurt may very well be in the bottom 3rd in terms of scoring among starting 4s, but consider who he's competing against in that particular measure: CWebb, Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, Matrix, Jermaine O'Neal (who needs a nickname), KMart, Gasol, etc. Ol' Kurt doesn't have a snowball's chance against these guys. Kurt's a utility piece, not a headliner.

You make a good point about his rebounding being potential overrated. Still, 7th in the NBA is solid.

I assume you're excluding issues of contract value when considering KT vs. Kwame because there are instances where, for cap space, etc. I'd definitely make that trade. If I recall, Kwame's contract is expiring, in that sense I'd be like 'every GM' you speak of and trade the two. As far as effectiveness goes, I don't think I'd make that trade. Kwame's been a 'work in progress' or 'keep an eye on this kid' type player for years now and all I see is Tim Thomas with an extra inch and 30% more muscle development (Kwame's jacked). I can't really see a way to spin his stats to make him look like anything other than a waste of a number one pick, a roster spot or, in our case, a decent-sized contract. This post is getting huge (again), but if you really want to talk about his merits, I'm game.

I totally agree with your concerns and goals for the team, but I don't see how Kwame, with the exception of the age issue, would be a real improvement in any way.

Sorry about these long posts, everyone, but think about it this way: if YOU went to school in Massachusetts and couldn't talk about the Knicks with anyone, how would YOU deal with it?

- Ben
MikeFromNY
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2/18/2005  5:28 PM
Posted by bbaii:


Sorry about these long posts, everyone, but think about it this way: if YOU went to school in Massachusetts and couldn't talk about the Knicks with anyone, how would YOU deal with it?

I'd get the hell out of Massachusetts, is what I'd do...
knixphan
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2/18/2005  7:34 PM
Also what Ewing did, if my geography is correct...

Hey bb - good points, and I empathize, being a NY'er in Los Angeles, surrounded by Kobeheads. It's tough, but you keep wearing that Orange and Blue. Our day will come!

(...It will, won't it?)



"I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion."
rvhoss
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2/18/2005  11:07 PM
no doubt...my feelings have always been, I like these knicks...I'm as shocked as anyone that TinyTim is horrible this year...but he is showing signs of life...and with Reeza backing him up (starting after the trading deadline) I like his game.

Penny has been great in recent games and the team is beginning to look like the 16 - 13 team we all came to love.

The Kurt bashing seems kind of strange to me...he's supposed to be the 4th option on this team, and the fifth option if Sweets starts and he slid to center. So points are kind of overrated for the way he is used.

When I watch him play defense, looks solid to me...this whole PF points against I think is a bit biased because most of the time he's coming off his man to assist craw and marbs and the PG dishes to the PF and he gets an easy dunk (that's probably why he and marbs are always fighting these days).

All in all, Kurt is a great role player and has the same type of pick and roll chemistry as doleac (loved on this board) or even KVH (half loved on this board)

Who really knew H20 was going to be on the shelf all season? I always said to the naysayers, A healthy H20, a 45 win knick team. (come on, didn't all of you think that?), but no healthy H20 and the best laid plans of mice and men.

when we were 16 - 13 and beginning to gell, it was all happy land...then we got hit with a) marbs self proclamation and b) injuries injuries injuries.

Hey, if TT and Penny's expiring contracts are so valuable...then why don't we just let them expire for us, draft well this year and next and sign a couple of studs (shot blocker [ala Camby] and money shooter [Fred Hoiberg/Korver mold]).

The PG spot is locked up (starbury...yes, I believe he is the best in the league). The SF spot is locked up (ariza is only 19!!). The PF spot is locked up (if you believe in sweets). And like I saw in a bunch of bloid's today, the three headed low post monster of Kurt/Nazr/Sweets is a more than capable front court in the east.

We add a front court monster and continue to coach Craw/Ariza/Sweets and we are on our way.

Penny and TT will wake it up in the second half...I promise you that.

sorry so long...it's late and it's great to finally see someone as positive as I am on the knicks (and you guessed it, another newbie as well).

maybe you old (and I suspect are waaaaaay younger than me) guys should just be like the rest of the fans and just root for the miracle of the knicks coming back from 6 games down and taking the atlantic and making noise in the playoffs.

We're better than last year (remember shandon, eisley and motumbo?!?!?!?)

Snap out of it...we're gonna make a run and we're going to take the atlantic and we're going to win the first round and we're going to battle the heat and see what we realy are made of.

I believe!!! DO YOU?

sorry so long.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 02/18/2005 23:14:52]
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gunsnewing
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2/19/2005  11:08 AM
well if you've been watching the games recently you will see and even hear the commentators talk about the improvements Crawford has made after coming back from the injury. His assists are up, he's running the floor, picking up keys steals and he has a better notion of when to shoot and when to pass. He's actually looking for his teammates now. I think sitting for allan houston really humbled him.

also I don't care how many 11pts 10reb games Kurt has on this team. if he is starting on your frontcourt you are in big trouble especially when his partner Nazr is worse. KT is a fine role player. OFF THE BENCH! unless he has shaq or duncan playing next to him.

Oh and you are not getting the most for the $8mil you are paying him. A player like him gets no more than $5-6mil. And if you don't believe me just look around the league...how many teams have you heard actually express interess in Kurt Thomas??! NONE!!!! Don't you think the Nets could've used him but they would never consider adding an $8mil role player when they can get a guy who plays smarter and is a better defender and is a very good 3pt shooter in Cliff Robinson and makes at the most $3mil! Wouldn't the Spurs be interested as well as the Wolves if they thought he's a player you get the bang for you bucks for??

Yeah lets talk about Kurt Thomas being worst every penny of that $8mil deal he got for 4 years!!.....

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 02/19/2005 11:18:10]
martin
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2/19/2005  11:11 AM
Posted by bbaii:

Sorry about these long posts, everyone, but think about it this way: if YOU went to school in Massachusetts and couldn't talk about the Knicks with anyone, how would YOU deal with it?
- Ben

Ben, there are BitTorrent copies of most all of the Knicks games out there. Find them and watch.

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gunsnewing
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2/19/2005  11:28 AM
Posted by rvhoss:



Who really knew H20 was going to be on the shelf all season? I always said to the naysayers, A healthy H20, a 45 win knick team. (come on, didn't all of you think that?), but no healthy H20 and the best laid plans of mice and men.


[Edited by - rvhoss on 02/18/2005 23:14:52]

I did was well as a few others here. I predicted that he would last 15 games and he lasted 20. Anyone who thought Houston was going to be back at 100% when unlike Jason Kidd he hurt a crucial part of his knee and refused to have surgery. He might've came back at 80% but without the surgery that number goes down with every minute he plays on that knee. It's no surprise Houston is done!
firefly
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2/20/2005  2:19 PM
martin, speaking as another farflung knicks fan, if you could start a server for those bt knicks games, id pay for it no question. im sure im not alone.

please, make it happen!
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
martin
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2/20/2005  2:35 PM
Posted by firefly:

martin, speaking as another farflung knicks fan, if you could start a server for those bt knicks games, id pay for it no question. im sure im not alone.

please, make it happen!

no guarantees or anything about the quality or source of these.

http://www.basket-torrent.webpark.pl/nba.html
http://usuarios.lycos.es/sylverz/
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Silverfuel
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2/20/2005  9:48 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by firefly:

martin, speaking as another farflung knicks fan, if you could start a server for those bt knicks games, id pay for it no question. im sure im not alone.

please, make it happen!

no guarantees or anything about the quality or source of these.

http://www.basket-torrent.webpark.pl/nba.html
http://usuarios.lycos.es/sylverz/
This is awesome!! How do u guys find this stuff?
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OasisBU
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2/20/2005  10:06 PM
Posted by MikeFromNY:
Posted by bbaii:


Sorry about these long posts, everyone, but think about it this way: if YOU went to school in Massachusetts and couldn't talk about the Knicks with anyone, how would YOU deal with it?

I'd get the hell out of Massachusetts, is what I'd do...

bbaii - I feel your pain...the BU in my handle is for Boston University. 4 years of nothing but reading about the knicks on ultimateknicks.com.....and the occasional game at boston garden. Major withdrawl - but in the end you will get back to NY and get all the Knicks you want on MSG - either that or get an apartment and buy the league pass.

But I can def relate....it was a LONG 4 years. Thank god for this website.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
tkf
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2/20/2005  11:49 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

first off, Kurt Thomas is averaging 37 minutes a a game, not 27. He gets to the foul line less than back up Gs and he's our starting PF. If we had ONE dominating defensive player, we would not be LAST absolute LAST in the league in FG% D. When I hear Mike Breen call him a first team all nBA defense I always chuckle. Remember a cat named Tim Duncan who plays the same position? KT is in the bottom 3rd in terms of scoring average at the 4. he is a pretty good rebounder, but over rated in that area as well because we dont have any rebounding guards. ANY GM would trade KT for Kwame Brown yesterday. I agree that he is paid fairly, but lets see the back end of the contract vs. production. thats whats scares other team from him.



Nazr is not a bad player, but rather a guy who would be good with a power 4. the problem is we dont have a power 4-5, we just have good players there, which isn't good enough to win.


One big problem with the Knicks is they lead the league in players over 30. This is probably the HIGHEST red flag to me of all,that and FG% defense. they are 1A and 1B. That why we need multiple draft picks and wise use of the MLE. we need to take the end of the bench more seriously, every bench spot, or roster spot should have menaing. I think we learned these lessons with the crap that is there now.
this team needs more athletiscm, size, speed, strength , we have some guys who can score, but those things I just mentioned concern mainly defense and rebounding+the ability to fast break

Kurt thomas is a good player, but I want to go in a different direction. hes only going to get slower from here

Briggs that statistic may be a bit misleading, guys like Houston, moochie, vin,KT and penny are not part of the knicks long range planss, neither are they part of this teams core right now, I think the important this is the age of the guys who we will be building around, and so far that average age is about 23 or 24, when you factor in crawford, ariza and sweetney.. But may I ask, how are we number one in that category when the rockets have, Deke, ward, wesley, sura, barry and Juwan Howard, all are 30+, that right there is more than the what the knicks have.... where are you getting those numbers from?
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Thoughts incl. Chad Ford's Trade Article

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