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Briggs question, revisited...
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BRIGGS
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2/8/2005  10:40 PM
Posted by Nalod:

On the surface, Isiah has gone to plan B. All in one years time.

I think those expiring deals are a bit overrated. But first things first, most people like what Reezy and Sweets are developing into, and its a start. Bring in a good rookie, and we are building a core.

But lets be real, if Isiah rebuilt last year, and lets say did not take on Marbs, there might have been a few more options.

Getting Reezy really bailed out Isiah. If part luck was needed, so be it, we were due in part for some.

Smells like "team" spirit!

there is a lot that went with those ending contracts to pheonix, for the most part, wouldnt it make sense for a team to want some young assets and picks to join those ending contracts? i mean Philly tried to peddle G-ROB all year and so far nada.
I know we used ending contracts for Crawford, but NO other team wanted him.
I mean you can see a tremendous flaw in this practice, you just cant keep doing it!
RIP Crushalot😞
AUTOADVERT
Nalod
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2/8/2005  10:54 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Plan B? What change has Isiah made that indicates he's changed plans? He's made zero trades this year and very few changes to the starting lineup and playing time of players.

Plan "B" is rebuilding in the face of this failed team. He said you can't rebuild in NY.

Now this is not me, this is what he said, and why there are some whom object to Isiah and the double speak.

I really gives two shoyts and phuch what he says, jsut what he does. The same went for Laydog! And anyone else who comes in and whats to Starphuch this franchise for short term buzz!

But the expiring deal thing is over rated, and taking more salary, or taking players that others deem not worthy is not a very good Idea. If Bonnie, you think it good, your certainly entitled, and who knows, there are many ways to acomplish, but the odds are you end up with more players that have not reached any of their potential. Isiah thinks he can turn these kids into real players with better attitudes. so far its not working, and he must be very dissapointed.

Better to go with good player with charactor. Not Darious Miles, not Walker, not Rose, not Pierce, not Kwame, and no other rejects.



Solace
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2/8/2005  11:15 PM
Eh? Not sure which side you're arguing, Bonn. Even Dolan said the Knicks were entering a rebuilding stage. I think he was speaking as if that was Isiah's plan.

Am I mistaken?
...
Bonn1997
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2/8/2005  11:21 PM
Posted by Solace:

Eh? Not sure which side you're arguing, Bonn. Even Dolan said the Knicks were entering a rebuilding stage. I think he was speaking as if that was Isiah's plan.

Am I mistaken?
The side I'm taking is that there's no evidence of any fundamental change in plans

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 02/08/2005 23:22:35]
BRIGGS
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2/8/2005  11:42 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Plan B? What change has Isiah made that indicates he's changed plans? He's made zero trades this year and very few changes to the starting lineup and playing time of players.

Plan "B" is rebuilding in the face of this failed team. He said you can't rebuild in NY.

Now this is not me, this is what he said, and why there are some whom object to Isiah and the double speak.

I really gives two shoyts and phuch what he says, jsut what he does. The same went for Laydog! And anyone else who comes in and whats to Starphuch this franchise for short term buzz!

But the expiring deal thing is over rated, and taking more salary, or taking players that others deem not worthy is not a very good Idea. If Bonnie, you think it good, your certainly entitled, and who knows, there are many ways to acomplish, but the odds are you end up with more players that have not reached any of their potential. Isiah thinks he can turn these kids into real players with better attitudes. so far its not working, and he must be very dissapointed.

Better to go with good player with charactor. Not Darious Miles, not Walker, not Rose, not Pierce, not Kwame, and no other rejects.


well using the ending contract stuff isnt necessarily going to put you in line for a perfect dude. some team is dumping the player for a reason in many cases, maybe on the court, maybe off the court maybe combination.

I'll throw my .02 for Randolph. I think that is the guy Id be willing to do some thing and take back some salaries for.

If we did something like

Sweetney
Penny
Baker
Norris
for
Randolph
Patterson
Andersen

I would do it
RIP Crushalot😞
Marv
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2/8/2005  11:50 PM
Very interesting thread (though if I'm Briggsy I'm suing Bonn right now for lumping me in with IslesFan ). I'll admit it - at 16-13 I was sold on the retooling - i felt like Isiah was pulling it off. We were gonna get 47-50 this year, 2nd round playoffs, retain Marbs, Craw, Reeze, Sweetney and Nazr, lose everyone else, continue to bring in more young talent and compete for the finals by 2-3 years time. Well I still say it was a great try, we've been through the worst now, with the disillusionment and fall. I don't think it's necessarily "Plan B" time, i just think you readjust your sights, play the young guys, keep an open mind about ANYONE on this roster being tradable, keep upgrading and adding to the young talent base and we could easily be back on track and even ahead of it next year.

The only lingering thought that occasionally still pops into my head is , What if Isiah last year had immediately flown to Europe to make the big pitch to Vujanic...
Killa4luv
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2/9/2005  3:42 AM
Posted by Marv:

Very interesting thread (though if I'm Briggsy I'm suing Bonn right now for lumping me in with IslesFan ). I'll admit it - at 16-13 I was sold on the retooling - i felt like Isiah was pulling it off. We were gonna get 47-50 this year, 2nd round playoffs, retain Marbs, Craw, Reeze, Sweetney and Nazr, lose everyone else, continue to bring in more young talent and compete for the finals by 2-3 years time. Well I still say it was a great try, we've been through the worst now, with the disillusionment and fall. I don't think it's necessarily "Plan B" time, i just think you readjust your sights, play the young guys, keep an open mind about ANYONE on this roster being tradable, keep upgrading and adding to the young talent base and we could easily be back on track and even ahead of it next year.

The only lingering thought that occasionally still pops into my head is , What if Isiah last year had immediately flown to Europe to make the big pitch to Vujanic...
Vujanic wasn't coming because he is getting millions over there and he could only get a rookie contract here. Thats why. A pitch aint gonna change that.

I still feel good about the team. We will have a second half of the season that looked like the beginning (when we looked promising) and we will still make the playoffs. We just had a tough month, and I think the team is over tht. I think we can still finish good and make the playoffs.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 02/09/2005 03:43:59]
Marv
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2/9/2005  7:03 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:

Vujanic wasn't coming because he is getting millions over there and he could only get a rookie contract here. Thats why. A pitch aint gonna change that.


[Edited by - Killa4luv on 02/09/2005 03:43:59]

Is a 2nd rounder restricted by rookie contract numbers? I thought you could go as high as you wanted for a 2nd rounder, or as low. Am I wrong?
Bonn1997
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2/9/2005  10:02 AM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by MX25:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

I wouldnt exactly call our trading assets huge
I'd call $75 mil in expiring contracts over the next two years, draft picks, and good young players huge.

So knicks are gonna rebuild by trading good young players and draft picks? Yepp that's the way to rebuild. LMAO

Not to mention taking on more long term contracts so that we have zero shot at guys like LeBron, Yao, Wade, etc... when they become free agents. Nice plan.
Superstars re-sign with their own teams 99% of the time because they can get so much more money with their own teams than with another team. Even if another team is way under the cap, the most they can offer is around $100 mil versus about $140 mil from your own team. Superstars almost always either get contract extensions or just re-sign when their contract expires. I can't think of the last time a superstar worthy of getting way under the cap for (like Lebron, Duncan, Garnett) actually signed with a different team. Depending on that to happen doesn't work based on past experiences.
Allanfan20
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2/9/2005  10:57 AM
And this is why we have to stop trading draft picks (I have faith Isiah wont do that this year) and get lucky and draft our own superstars. It's very close to impossible to trade for a superstar, or very hard to get a STAR w/o taking back a ton of money and giving up a lot, in return. This is how teams take advantage of NY, especially now. Briggs is right about one thing. Right now, the draft is more important than ever. We aren't gonna get a guy like Dalembert, clearly (Damn!) and Stephen Hunter probably isn't the center of our future, if we get him. He's just a backup right now, maybe worthy of 15- 20 minutes. We have to start trading for picks and start drafting wisely. Give up a KT or Nazr and take a step back. Some of the fans may be pissed at first, but in the long run, it's going to be worth the shot.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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2/9/2005  11:11 AM
It's why you need to get more superstars in trades like we got with Marbury. Surround Marbury with two more players at or near his level (which we have enough expiring contracts and other trade assets over the next 2 to 3 years) and we're set. We'll get some nice role players in the draft.
Allanfan20
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2/9/2005  11:17 AM
What superstars do you want, that you think we'll aquire in a trade for our expiring contracts though? We got extremely lucky in the Marbury trade, but that's b/c the young talent we gave up might very well turn out to be nobodys. If we want to trade for a Webber (As you want) I guarantee that the Kings will be asking for Ariza AND maybe Sweetney. And if Isiah does that, my friend, I will be calling for his pretty little head. I have complete faith that he wont be doing that though.

Drafting your own superstars is a million times cheaper, as well as trading for the role players. I think that's the right route. Not the other way around.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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2/9/2005  11:22 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

What superstars do you want, that you think we'll aquire in a trade for our expiring contracts though? We got extremely lucky in the Marbury trade, but that's b/c the young talent we gave up might very well turn out to be nobodys. If we want to trade for a Webber (As you want) I guarantee that the Kings will be asking for Ariza AND maybe Sweetney. And if Isiah does that, my friend, I will be calling for his pretty little head. I have complete faith that he wont be doing that though.

Drafting your own superstars is a million times cheaper, as well as trading for the role players. I think that's the right route. Not the other way around.
I never said I wanted Webber that much, but I'd take him in the right deal. Otherwise, they can keep him. You can't predict now which superstars will be available later. In the middle of the 2003 season, no one would have predicted that Marbury would have been available a year later. But there ALWAYS are young stars available for expiring contracts plus young players with upside. Unless you're bad enough to get a top 2 pick (which this time probably will never be), then you're extremely unlikely to ever get a superstar in the draft. You can't rely on a rebuilding strategy that's extremely unlikely to work.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 02/09/2005 11:23:34]
crzymdups
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2/9/2005  11:52 AM
Yes, expiring contracts can help to make trades, but let's look at all the expiring Max-ish deals this year that haven't netted JACK, and most of which have been on the block all year:

Damon Stoudamire
Nick Van Exel
SAR
Sprewell
Glenn Robinson
Walker
Payton
Jahidi White
Alan Henderson
Dale Davis
Kittles (traded for a second round pick to LAC)
Ray Allen
Vitaly Potapenko
Jerome James
Milwaukee's entire roster
Donyell Marshall

Sometimes, having expiring deals doesn't mean much. You have to be willing to throw in picks, which is not a good idea for los NYK. They need to let Penny, Moochie, Vinny and Timmy WALK AWAY. Then, suddenly, our cap situation isn't awful, and there's a chance to get under the cap when Allan's done. Let these punks walk away for two years and then we'll have a slew of young players and CAP ROOM.
¿ △ ?
Panos
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2/9/2005  11:55 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Unless you're bad enough to get a top 2 pick (which this time probably will never be), then you're extremely unlikely to ever get a superstar in the draft.

Michael Jordan was drafted third.
For a more recent example, Amare Stoudamire 9th.
Marv
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2/9/2005  11:58 AM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Unless you're bad enough to get a top 2 pick (which this time probably will never be), then you're extremely unlikely to ever get a superstar in the draft.

Michael Jordan was drafted third.
For a more recent example, Amare Stoudamire 9th.

Dwayne Wade was selected 5th.
franco12
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2/9/2005  12:03 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Panos:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Unless you're bad enough to get a top 2 pick (which this time probably will never be), then you're extremely unlikely to ever get a superstar in the draft.

Michael Jordan was drafted third.
For a more recent example, Amare Stoudamire 9th.

Dwayne Wade was selected 5th.

Chris Bosh who you (Bonn) love went 4th.
TMS
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2/9/2005  12:06 PM
why can't we keep our lottery pick this year & still trade for CWebb in the offseason? i think an offer of KT, TT (or Penny) & Sweetney would be enough to entice the Kings to think about trading CWebb to us in the offseason personally.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
crzymdups
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2/9/2005  12:33 PM
Posted by TMS:

why can't we keep our lottery pick this year & still trade for CWebb in the offseason? i think an offer of KT, TT (or Penny) & Sweetney would be enough to entice the Kings to think about trading CWebb to us in the offseason personally.

No, no it wouldn't. Do you think the Kings didn't notice CWebb notching a triple double last night?
¿ △ ?
Bonn1997
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2/9/2005  12:40 PM
I said it was very unlikely (not impossible) to get a franchise player if you're drafting beyond #2. It's probably about a 20% chance at best that players picked 3 to 5 will be franchise players. Then it gets lower for picks after that.
Briggs question, revisited...

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