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god, Berman is such a cry baby...
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fishmike
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2/7/2005  11:28 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/40040.htm

It's fine the plan has changed amidst this nightmare, but don't try to fool us into this being the plan all along. It's insulting.
Actually whats insulting would be trying to squeeze 39 wins and another 8th seed out of this group. THATS what old management did. I looked at this team in preseason and thought winning the division was totally realistic and a fair goal. It didnt work out. TT shooting 39%, guys getting nicked up, horrible backup PG play, etc derailed this season. So what? Now move KT for an extra pick, or Nazr for EJ and Sota's #1 which will be in the mid/late teens, or look at Wilcox.

There are options, even if we have to take short term $$$ back or kick in the $3mm in that trade to make it happen.

Why is it insulting to say we tried some things in a weak division and the cards didnt fall our way?

Personally if Isiah makes any of those types of moves I will be ecstatic
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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tkf
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2/7/2005  12:00 PM
I like the mindset of the knicks now, but what would be funny is if we do make some moves to get younger guys and still play well enough to sneak into the playoffs, that will be the icing on the cake, I mean we start the rebuilding and still get younger guys.. great..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
nykdunk
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2/7/2005  12:24 PM
Disagree with you fish, and agree with Berman for once. This team was supposed to win the division this year. All the moves Isiah has made have illustrated a win-now mentality:

The Moochie trade.. was supposed to give us a serviceable player. It didn't. It did open up time for Sweets, but at the expense of Frank Williams.

The Marbury trade...was supposed to make us better now, and it did. But losing Lampe, Vujanic, 2 first rounders meant sacrificing the future. Plus we took back Penny's contract.

The KVH-Gazy trade was a lateral one which hasn't worked out. It didn't make us better for the present or the future. Losing Doleac and KVH's shooting has hurt Marbury's game. Marbury's ability to penetrate at will and create chances for his teammates would have been enhanced with Doleac's and Van Horn's good shooting ability. Nazy's been a good player, but he isn't the future. GayZ has been a bust.

KT's extension? We risked losing his intangibles for nothing, so instead Isiah gave him quite a nice, juicy contract extension. The problem is he's 32/33 now and when his contract ends he'll be 36/37. Who'll want him then? Only a team that is looking to use his expiring contract. Why'd we keep him? Because we wanted to win now!

The Crawford trade was a win now trade too. Money per year wise, the deal is a bargain, but the length of a contract Isiah gave him was quite absurd. JYD's contract is no small thing to take back either.

And giving Baker the MLE when we could have tried to develop some other younger big man with it? That's win now mentality.

Isiah said when he first got here that tearing things down was not an option. But he was probably under pressure to make a meaningless run at the playoffs. I'll be willing to forgive him if he finally starts doing what should have done way back when Ewing was an expiring contract. Tear it down, then rebuild this mess. Dolan realized the Rangers weren't winning anything and gave Sather the go-ahead to rebuild. Hopefully, after this colossal disaster, he'll now give the same go-ahead to Isiah.

[Edited by - nykdunk on 02/07/2005 12:30:37]
BRIGGS
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2/7/2005  12:51 PM
Posted by nykdunk:

Disagree with you fish, and agree with Berman for once. This team was supposed to win the division this year. All the moves Isiah has made have illustrated a win-now mentality:

The Moochie trade.. was supposed to give us a serviceable player. It didn't. It did open up time for Sweets, but at the expense of Frank Williams.

The Marbury trade...was supposed to make us better now, and it did. But losing Lampe, Vujanic, 2 first rounders meant sacrificing the future. Plus we took back Penny's contract.

The KVH-Gazy trade was a lateral one which hasn't worked out. It didn't make us better for the present or the future. Losing Doleac and KVH's shooting has hurt Marbury's game. Marbury's ability to penetrate at will and create chances for his teammates would have been enhanced with Doleac's and Van Horn's good shooting ability. Nazy's been a good player, but he isn't the future. GayZ has been a bust.

KT's extension? We risked losing his intangibles for nothing, so instead Isiah gave him quite a nice, juicy contract extension. The problem is he's 32/33 now and when his contract ends he'll be 36/37. Who'll want him then? Only a team that is looking to use his expiring contract. Why'd we keep him? Because we wanted to win now!

The Crawford trade was a win now trade too. Money per year wise, the deal is a bargain, but the length of a contract Isiah gave him was quite absurd. JYD's contract is no small thing to take back either.

And giving Baker the MLE when we could have tried to develop some other younger big man with it? That's win now mentality.

Isiah said when he first got here that tearing things down was not an option. But he was probably under pressure to make a meaningless run at the playoffs. I'll be willing to forgive him if he finally starts doing what should have done way back when Ewing was an expiring contract. Tear it down, then rebuild this mess. Dolan realized the Rangers weren't winning anything and gave Sather the go-ahead to rebuild. Hopefully, after this colossal disaster, he'll now give the same go-ahead to Isiah.

[Edited by - nykdunk on 02/07/2005 12:30:37]




I agree 100%. EVERYTHING he has done has been to *win now*, I mean you dont take on 200MM$ worth of contracts in a year--go 29-24 with shanden andersen playing the 2,take on two more vets one younger one older in JYD and Jamal if you are trying to rebuild.

one of the main key arguements is why pay Kurt Thomas and Vin baker? why waste the money? If they both werent here, would this team be any different? NO! You couldve given Udonis Haslem 2.5mm for a few years and he wouldve given you what KT and Baker have combined and hes 23.


They are trying to save face by lying. It would be better to say, we have played below expectations, several players havent performed to the level we expected and now we are going to turn our attention to building a team instead of patchworking one at this point.


I don't blame them for trying to win now, but it just hasnt worked out. They never had a defined plan. I think thats what they need to start with, a plan.

And character starts from the top, they need to remember that.
RIP Crushalot😞
fishmike
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2/7/2005  1:02 PM
I wasnt even disagreeing with Berman so much as just calling him a cry baby. The one thing he is dead wrong about is the Layden comparisons. He takes a stab by saying that Crawford/Ariza/Sweetney arent title caliber players and thats fine but at least they are playing. We had Lampe/Sweetney/Vranes all on IR with ZERO chance of seeing any daylight. So far Lampe's been traded twice and cant get minutes on the worst team in the league and Vranes is out of the league.

So in terms of NOT rebuilding what exactly did we give up? The Kirk Snyder pick? We missed Al Jefferson so so what. Why is it bad to try and take advantage of playing in a weak division? What did we sacrifice? Vin Baker?

No.. to me the real sin is when a guy like Layden tells you "we love our team" over and over while they are losing constantly. I like that we tried to do some things. So they didnt work. Where is the insult?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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2/7/2005  1:09 PM
Briggs... why does building the future require you spending ZERO additional money? Marbury can play. the guy is a horse, but if he doesnt work out here he will yield a solid return. Its becoming pretty clear Lampe isnt ready to play in this league. Aside from that we gave up Kirk Snyder. Oh yea.. and we took on money.
Crawford is a nice player at 24. He needs work but he's got skills. Yes, JYD was a throw in and yea we took on money.

Which part of Deke, Harrington, Frank, Tranbanski is hurting our ability to build this team?

The money didnt result in wins but it wasnt wasted either.

I dont understand how because the Knicks spent money (most of it on future payroll) they have sacrificed the future.

At least now there is some talent to go along with the insane payroll. Before there was just a bunch of bad players, $80mm and a GM that could only say "we love our team"
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BigSm00th
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2/7/2005  1:10 PM
I agree with fish and with nyk/Briggs.

The Moochie trade opened up time for Sweetney, and Moochie's been iffy at best. Plus, they're saving money as Moochie's contract is smaller.

How can people still say that trading Lampe (not getting time on the worst team in the NBA, traded 2 times), Vujanic (STILL not in the NBA), and 2 first rounders (last yr. gets wiped out b/c Isiah found Ariza in the 2nd round) hurt the future? I'm sorry, I just don't see it.

KVH/TT did not work out. I agree. Total lateral move by Isiah.

He should've traded KT last year at the deadline and gotten another first rounder and let Malik Rose expire. The extension was too big, but let's see if he can move him first before writing that off.

How was Crawford win now? He's 24. Frank Williams has had like 4 good games in his career and isn't playing, Harrington stinks, Mutumbo was a nice player but he's probably 60 years old by now. What did they give up? 4 bad players for 2 good ones? I'll do that any day.

I hated the Baker signing, made no sense. I wanted Chris Andersen or Joel Pryzbilla.
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nykdunk
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2/7/2005  1:11 PM
Insult is probably the wrong word, but every man and his dog knows that the plan was to win now. At the very least, Isiah is lying that this was the plan all along. It didn't work, we're rebuilding now, just admit it failed, and start tearing it down. It's not like Dolan is going to fire him so soon. I think even he can see that this team has one foot in the past, one foot in the future, and is pissing all over the present, because of his stubborn desire to get into the playoffs last year.
BRIGGS
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2/7/2005  1:14 PM
Posted by tkf:

I like the mindset of the knicks now, but what would be funny is if we do make some moves to get younger guys and still play well enough to sneak into the playoffs, that will be the icing on the cake, I mean we start the rebuilding and still get younger guys.. great..


not in the team's or fan's best interests to make the playoffs this year. What is in our best interest is to keep losing at this pace so we can sit in position 5.

Position 5 gives us a LEGIT shot at the prize that we need so-so desperatley and brings us into an area where if we didnt win, we have a nice leverage position to do some things oR actually find a guy that may fall in a numbers game like a Chris Taft.
RIP Crushalot😞
BigSm00th
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2/7/2005  1:17 PM
I'm with Briggs 100% on this. Icing on the cake for this season is turning our older guys into young assets and getting a top 5 pick. Bogut, Marvin Williams, Chris Taft, and Hakim Warrick, in that order, are 4 big men I'd like to see in a Knicks uniform.
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nykdunk
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2/7/2005  1:18 PM
How can people still say that trading Lampe (not getting time on the worst team in the NBA, traded 2 times), Vujanic (STILL not in the NBA), and 2 first rounders (last yr. gets wiped out b/c Isiah found Ariza in the 2nd round) hurt the future? I'm sorry, I just don't see it.

$$$$. Marbury's contract expires in '09 at which point he will be well into the tail-end of his career. We also traded Dice's expiring contract and took on Penny's instead, which at the time ran for the 2 more years.
How was Crawford win now? He's 24. Frank Williams has had like 4 good games in his career and isn't playing, Harrington stinks, Mutumbo was a nice player but he's probably 60 years old by now. What did they give up? 4 bad players for 2 good ones? I'll do that any day.

Not so simple. We took back JYD's contract and will be paying Craw till the end of the decade. Flexibility is everything in today's NBA. It was win now deal in the sense that we weren't moving towards the rebuilding, which Isiah is claiming he's doing now.

[Edited by - nykdunk on 02/07/2005 13:18:41]
BigSm00th
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2/7/2005  1:21 PM
"We also traded Dice's expiring contract and took on Penny's instead, which at the time ran for the 2 more years." OK, but going by your logic, the Knicks would be in better shape today at only $85 million (or roughyl $40 million over the cap) versus being at $103 million. Dice expiring meant nothing, they'd still be insanely over the cap.

"We took back JYD's contract and will be paying Craw till the end of the decade" They had to take back JYD if they wanted Craw, b/c the Bulls weren't getting any help if they just signed and traded Crawford. At the end of the decade Crawford will just be leaving his prime at 31, so I'm glad to pay a guy top dollar when he's at the peak of his career.
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tkf
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2/7/2005  1:25 PM
I agree with fish, and I will say this not to disrespect anyone, because I respect all of you guys, but when I hear we traded guys like lampe, vujanic and the pick that turned out to be snyder and we traded away our future, that sounds like the most assinine thing I have heard in years,it is almost a very weak attempt to support an argument. What philly did in trading Hughes and Stackhouse was sacraficing the future for the "now", what boston did in trading Joe johnson was sacraficing the future for "now", you see to sacrafice you have to give up something of value. Do you actually call vujanic, lampe and snyder right now of any substantial value?

That argument has run its course IMO, marbury for us was the much greater talent and to get a player like that for what we gave up was a coup..

I understand that IT tried to win the division this year, but he also left him self with some young talent and room to shift gears as he is doing now.. ariza, sweets, crawford and marbury gives us talent, youth and trading chips that we never had before, for that I don't understand why Berman is crying so much as fish put it...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
nykdunk
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2/7/2005  1:25 PM
The move was fine. I like Crawford's potential. JYD is a fine role player. I'm just saying it's not the type of move a rebuilding team would make, because cap-wise it badly hinders our ability to get other players.
BRIGGS
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2/7/2005  1:34 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:

I'm with Briggs 100% on this. Icing on the cake for this season is turning our older guys into young assets and getting a top 5 pick. Bogut, Marvin Williams, Chris Taft, and Hakim Warrick, in that order, are 4 big men I'd like to see in a Knicks uniform.

I like Hakim, but the thing that has kept him in school hasnt changed. He still is 6-8 215 and plays 4. How the H is he going to guard a guy like Elton Brand or even a Mike Sweetney? Next to Shaq, OK, I can see it. If he was just a little taller and 15 pds heavier, heck he would go top 3 for sure. I wouldnt cry if we took him, but Id rather see if we could trade down and pick up 2-3 picks for a 5-----THEN see who drops. You might walk out with a Hakim, Louis Williams and a Joey Graham. And if you dont get Hakim, if he doesnt drop, there will be nice potnetial big choices like Torin Francis Turriaf, someone atleast 6-10 etc... it might help our team to trade down for multiple picks if we dont get pick 1-5,

if we did something like
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martin
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2/7/2005  1:39 PM
Posted by nykdunk:

Insult is probably the wrong word, but every man and his dog knows that the plan was to win now. At the very least, Isiah is lying that this was the plan all along. It didn't work, we're rebuilding now, just admit it failed, and start tearing it down. It's not like Dolan is going to fire him so soon. I think even he can see that this team has one foot in the past, one foot in the future, and is pissing all over the present, because of his stubborn desire to get into the playoffs last year.

don't agree.

Isiah has said that the Knicks are rebuilding on the fly. Hey, if you have a chance - slim at best - to get into the playoffs, you go for it. But you go for it without totally wrecking your long-term goals. The money MSG makes per game in the playoffs is worth it. After that you rebuild.

How can you guys say that playing Ariza, Sweets and Craw big minutes is not rebuilding?

If everyone wants to split hairs with Isiah and the message from Cable Vision has been, go for it, but it's a waste of time. No matter what comes out of Isiah's mouth, the team is in rebuild mode, with an outside chance of getting to the playoffs.

How about this: All but 2-3 teams in the NBA are rebuilding. The Spurs are tweaking, the Sun rebuilt last summer, Dallas rebuilt last summer, Miami rebuilt last summer, the Wolves should have rebuilt last summer, Detroit is tweaking.
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BRIGGS
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2/7/2005  1:39 PM
Posted by tkf:

I agree with fish, and I will say this not to disrespect anyone, because I respect all of you guys, but when I hear we traded guys like lampe, vujanic and the pick that turned out to be snyder and we traded away our future, that sounds like the most assinine thing I have heard in years,it is almost a very weak attempt to support an argument. What philly did in trading Hughes and Stackhouse was sacraficing the future for the "now", what boston did in trading Joe johnson was sacraficing the future for "now", you see to sacrafice you have to give up something of value. Do you actually call vujanic, lampe and snyder right now of any substantial value?

That argument has run its course IMO, marbury for us was the much greater talent and to get a player like that for what we gave up was a coup..

I understand that IT tried to win the division this year, but he also left him self with some young talent and room to shift gears as he is doing now.. ariza, sweets, crawford and marbury gives us talent, youth and trading chips that we never had before, for that I don't understand why Berman is crying so much as fish put it...



Im not killing him for the Marbury trade, although I will stay with my original thought that the trade brought us into a quagmire and so far it has proven true.

I would rather the team had Josh Smith and Al Jefferson than Marbury, but that doesnt matter now.
RIP Crushalot😞
djsunyc
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2/7/2005  1:42 PM
Posted by tkf:

I understand that IT tried to win the division this year, but he also left him self with some young talent and room to shift gears as he is doing now..

couldn't have said it better myself.. he made big $$$ deals but he also put himself in a position where he could shift gears if it didn't work out.

this season is a disappointment. no ways around that but we're not stuck in neutral or reverse. we just hit a speed bump.
fishmike
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2/7/2005  1:46 PM
nykdunk, Yes, I know we took on money w/ Penny and JYD but you still havent explained why that has hurt us in terms of the future. Flexibility? Take those guys off the roster and we arent any more flexible. Guys like Crawford, Ariza and Marbury give you options and flexibility.

The problem is we dont have enough talent yet, so it doesnt matter. trading Marbury now accomplishes nothing. Same w/ the young guys.

We will probably have our answer in the next 3 weeks. If we see a KT or Nazr dealt with draft picks coming back that we have our answer.

If we are 7-8 taking Warrick is a great move. Yea he's too small to play 4 in the NBA, but he's got a decent handle and is tough enough and fast enough to guard 3's. He would be a lot like Marion without the shooting range, but better post moves. A guy that can get you 10 rebs at SF and 15 points a night on garbage. Plus he plays his ass off on D
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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2/7/2005  1:48 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by tkf:

I agree with fish, and I will say this not to disrespect anyone, because I respect all of you guys, but when I hear we traded guys like lampe, vujanic and the pick that turned out to be snyder and we traded away our future, that sounds like the most assinine thing I have heard in years,it is almost a very weak attempt to support an argument. What philly did in trading Hughes and Stackhouse was sacraficing the future for the "now", what boston did in trading Joe johnson was sacraficing the future for "now", you see to sacrafice you have to give up something of value. Do you actually call vujanic, lampe and snyder right now of any substantial value?

That argument has run its course IMO, marbury for us was the much greater talent and to get a player like that for what we gave up was a coup..

I understand that IT tried to win the division this year, but he also left him self with some young talent and room to shift gears as he is doing now.. ariza, sweets, crawford and marbury gives us talent, youth and trading chips that we never had before, for that I don't understand why Berman is crying so much as fish put it...



Im not killing him for the Marbury trade, although I will stay with my original thought that the trade brought us into a quagmire and so far it has proven true.

I would rather the team had Josh Smith and Al Jefferson than Marbury, but that doesnt matter now.

i rather have ariza than josh smith, I am not that high on smith at all..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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god, Berman is such a cry baby...
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