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The Sacr game has convinced me. Nothing has changed over the last 3 years
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Silverfuel
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2/5/2005  12:38 AM
The faces have changed but we still cannot win a game. This game really did it for me. I have absolutely no desire to see this team go into the playoffs. I cannot waste anymore of my time watching these Knicks. Its as if they expect to lose. Marbury passed up the last second shot to Penny! Twice! Once when Penny shot a brick from the 3pt line and again with 6 seconds to go. Marbury, the best player on this team gave up the ball when the game was on the line. I lost a lotta respect for him tonite.

I wanted this win. I really wanted this win. I know this team is going nowhere but even then I need to see a win every once in a while. We cannot continue like this. Same old freaking Knicks. Cannot execute, hit free throws, defend or hit free throws. 6 for 16 from the free throw line in the 4th quarter. Bleh

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 02/05/2005 00:39:24]
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MaTT4281
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2/5/2005  12:41 AM
Future looking better though.
I swear to God, after the loss I think I heard the song "Tomorrow" playing in the backround somewhere around here.
Silverfuel
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2/5/2005  12:46 AM
Posted by MaTT4281:

Future looking better though.
Does it? I mean, the best player on our team would rather pass the ball up to Penny who already clanked one off the rim 3 seconds ago than try to create something. That and he missed 2 late FTs which is not a big deal cause the whole team missed FTs in the 4th. Then there is Jamal who didnt shoot today, and Sweetney who fouled out in 19mins. I dont see a light at the end of the tunnel Matt.

This game really hurt. This game was just as bad as the Detroit game. It hurt. It really hurt. I guess I shouldnt expect a win and then I wouldnt be so heart broken.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 02/05/2005 00:49:43]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
MaTT4281
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2/5/2005  12:57 AM
Ya, future shining bright for me.
We have all of these soon to be expiring contracts, we have draft picks and a GM that can draft, we got some young guys that have become a big part of this team, same old story.
Everytime I watch Ariza play, I am reassured about the future. No doubt he has to tune up his game and learn more about it, but that goes for every 19 year old. In the same respect, Sweetney has to learn to control those fouls he's picking up, and Craw has to pick up a better shot selection.
Those 3 guys alone are great pieces for the future. Add in some more of those picks, and whoever we pick up with those contracts.
Caseloads
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2/5/2005  12:59 AM
great loss - more draft picks coming up!
crzymdups
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2/5/2005  1:00 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:

The faces have changed but we still cannot win a game. This game really did it for me. I have absolutely no desire to see this team go into the playoffs. I cannot waste anymore of my time watching these Knicks. Its as if they expect to lose. Marbury passed up the last second shot to Penny! Twice! Once when Penny shot a brick from the 3pt line and again with 6 seconds to go. Marbury, the best player on this team gave up the ball when the game was on the line. I lost a lotta respect for him tonite.

I wanted this win. I really wanted this win. I know this team is going nowhere but even then I need to see a win every once in a while. We cannot continue like this. Same old freaking Knicks. Cannot execute, hit free throws, defend or hit free throws. 6 for 16 from the free throw line in the 4th quarter. Bleh

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 02/05/2005 00:39:24]

You LOST respect for Marbury tonight? Did you watch the game? Marbury had a nice game. And when he gets double-teamed, he's supposed to pass to the open guy. Penny was wide open for the three. And Marbury was going to be doubled and probably tripled if he made it as far as the foul line. It's not like he was iso-ed and he was like "nah".... he was double teamed.

Marbury's line on two sore knees: 37 minutes 37 pts 8 assists 15-19 fg.

Marbury laid it out there tonight and his only help was Tim Thomas. Nazr went out with injury and that was the real turning point of the game. Jamal didn't show up. Penny gave the game away. I don't want it to sound like I'm making excuses for Marbury, but he played very well tonight and the whole team was done in by this dark cloud that seems to be following them in 2005.
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Silverfuel
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2/5/2005  1:02 AM
very true crzymdups. Marbury did play well till the last 4 mins but I still lost a lotta respect for him. Its like he didnt want to take the last shot. He made a half hearted attempt for a better look and passed it up both times to Penny. And your right, Penny blew the game for us not Marbury, I just wish it is him taking those last second shots. I'd rather him drive on double teams than Penny.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 02/05/2005 01:04:04]
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crzymdups
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2/5/2005  1:10 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:

very true crzymdups. Marbury did play well till the last 4 mins but I still lost a lotta respect for him. Its like he didnt want to take the last shot. He made a half hearted attempt for a better look and passed it up both times to Penny. And your right, Penny blew the game for us not Marbury, I just wish it is him taking those last second shots. I'd rather him drive on double teams than Penny.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 02/05/2005 01:04:04]

Yeah, but Marbury making a play there would've been incredible. The point is the game should've never come to that. They should've made free throws. Ariza should've called time out to advance the ball after the Bibby three (they had two TOs). Penny should have called time out when he got the ball and had nowhere to go. Kurt could've dove for that bad pass by Penny, instead of letting Bibby run around him to get it. Penny should have taken a step in when he shot that three when the score was tied - two woulda been fine. Penny should've dished to Kurt or Jamal or even back to Marbury with 5 seconds to go and a double team on him. Herb should have put JYD in for defense rather than leave Tim Thomas at the PF on D. There are all sorts of things you can point to, and I don't think Marbury should get the blame. How did we lose a game like that with a timeout still in our pocket?
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Rich
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2/5/2005  1:11 AM
This team needs to blown up, and rebuilt from scratch.
crzymdups
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2/5/2005  1:16 AM
Posted by Rich:

This team needs to blown up, and rebuilt from scratch.

How bout we just draft another big. We were doing fine until Nazr got injured.
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Rich
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2/5/2005  1:50 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Rich:

This team needs to blown up, and rebuilt from scratch.

How bout we just draft another big. We were doing fine until Nazr got injured.

Are you referring to just tonight's game?

If the Knicks are going to compete against the top teams in the NBA they need two bigs (in the absence of one that can dominate): a shot blocker and a post up player who can demand a double team in the low box, and they need two smalls: a 2 or a 3 with a reliable shot from the perimeter, and a lock down defender.
gunsnewing
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2/5/2005  2:19 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:

The faces have changed but we still cannot win a game. This game really did it for me. I have absolutely no desire to see this team go into the playoffs. I cannot waste anymore of my time watching these Knicks. Its as if they expect to lose. Marbury passed up the last second shot to Penny! Twice! Once when Penny shot a brick from the 3pt line and again with 6 seconds to go. Marbury, the best player on this team gave up the ball when the game was on the line. I lost a lotta respect for him tonite.

I wanted this win. I really wanted this win. I know this team is going nowhere but even then I need to see a win every once in a while. We cannot continue like this. Same old freaking Knicks. Cannot execute, hit free throws, defend or hit free throws. 6 for 16 from the free throw line in the 4th quarter. Bleh

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 02/05/2005 00:39:24]

i feel your pain man. The knicks don't have to win all the time and make the playoffs and get knocked out in the first round but situations like tonight with Marbury passing the ball off after dribbling for less than 1 second just leaves a really bad taste.

In the end I was pretty happy that we're moving closer and closer to the #1 pick. But I wanted to see Marbury improve so I can really look forward to next year. right now I just think its best that they trade him. Even if he goes on to score over 30pts 5 straight games. Trade him while he's hot.

Trading Marbury along with Kurt Thomas and Nazr and even Sweetney if needed can really help our future. We need a total shake up. I can't take anymore collapses. It's been going on since we lost to the Heat in 97 after the PJ Brown/Charlie Ward incident
gunsnewing
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2/5/2005  2:24 AM
oh and I'm going to calm down about Sweetney until he shows that he can be consistent. But until he gets a chance to start we will never know. I don't understand what the big deal is. If he starts and gets in early foul trouble then just take him out. Kurt Thomas used to be in foul trouble every game!

I'm desperate for a low post scorer. I mean look how effective TT was in the post. He was unbelievable! until the TT of old reared his head but he's definitely not the one to blame tonight. I thought Penny was off all night and Ariza was playing really well, he should've been in there with stephon and crawford. Not Penny

I'm really interested in seeing who starts at center of Nazr is hurt. Sundov? I would start Sweetney there and KT at PF but it'll problably be the other way around

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 02/05/2005 02:30:07]
gunsnewing
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2/5/2005  2:57 AM
the last play was definitely not Penny fault. Steph could've drove and scored or kicked it out for an open jumper but instead he throw the ball to Penny who had 3 guys on him with no where to go! unbelievable!!! And then everone on the Knicks are clearly distraught but they stay together on the court and show support while Marbury walks off court. what a little *****! stuff like that you let by for a 20 year old but this guy is 28! He just gets more stupid!
JayNYC
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2/5/2005  4:52 AM
Somehow... just like the Knicks as a team remain totally clueless on how to get wins; we as knicks fans and devoted columnist of this forum remain totally clueless on what really transpired during the course of the game!

I'll be honest, I took this lost a little "Harder" this time and elected to stay away from these boards earlier; (Its now 4:45 am)Partly because I couldn't find the words to express my disbelief, and the other is I wanted to truly examine how such a dramatic collapse happened in like under a minute. THIS WAS JUST CRAZY, CRAZY!!! So, I stayed up and waited for Knicks Rewind in hopes of truly defining the factors of this lost.

Bottomline, I still can't. "Unexplainable" isn't merely a great enough word to depict the outcome of this game. So the next UN word that came to my mind was "Unacceptible".. even that didn't really summarize the events of this game into a distinct caption.

At this point, I am resigned to this thought... "Unfortunate".
We can sit here and blame as much as you want on Stephon Starbury.. (yes, I still think he is a star) for not forcing the issue with 6 point something seconds and Not putting the game on his shoulders. Blame Penny for the lack of better judgement on 3 critical plays (The turnover and foul after Bibby's contested 3pt shot, Being tied in the game... Missing an open 3pt shot when he could've easily stepped in for a closer jumper, and lastly trying to split two defenders on the perimeter & getting stripped on the game winning possession) Or the spotty defense and missed freethrows down the stretch.

Regardless of who you try to blame, The reality is this: The Knicks just are not good enough YET.

We still may make the playoffs, but we are truly a marginal team regardless of who is on the floor. This team lacks "leadership" moreso than talent at this point. (Although, a nice athletic big man who has a low post game and is a defensive juggernaut would be a much welcomed sight )

That being said, let me clear up a few things if I may. All of this Marbury bashing is kinda irrational and out of control. Stephs numbers were incredible tonight, as they generally are and somehow he still ends up being labled the goat. We all know that he is not the prototypical pass first pg, he isn't the BEST pg either statistically. But this foolishness about him being a bum is ridiculous. Think about it, I don't need to state the obvious anyone who plays ball/ or simply understand's the dynamic of this game should see that Stephon Marbury is an extremely good player. The key is being "good" is not enough in NY; You have to be great!!! Individual accolades don't matter, it all comes down to being a winner. That's what defines "greatness". (This is why Patrick Ewing was villified during his career. People said that he was'nt a WINNER.. But what did that mean, his 21 and 10 playing center didn't matter???) C'mon be for real, those numbers are GREAT. As should, Steph's 20 and 8 at pg be considered great. What both players lacked or I should say lack in Starbury's case is another marquee talent to have held them down. If Stephon ever gets a complete team that fits his style of play, and a Coach that provides leadership. All of this Marbury hate will go away, I can assure you that!


Stephon Marbury, Allen Iverson, Baron Davis. What sets them apart from Dwayne Wade, Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker? Bigs: Shaquille O'neal, The Wallaces & Tim Duncan. Otherwise, all 3 are better individual talents.

If Steve Nash is the best point guard in the game, what has he done differently now than what he's done in Dallas? He wasn't being touted as an MVP there. I like Steve Nash, but this is by all accounts his best season as a pro. I ain't tryna discredit what he's done for the Suns this year, but do you really believe that he is dramtically better than Jason Kidd or the others mentioned above. No! But yet he is mentioned as top PG in the league based on a half season of accomplishments without tweaking his style of play. WHY? Because he is on a winning team.

Again, I echo these sentiments until Marbury has a team that can produce in the win column, NYK will continue to be mediocre at best. As will the harsh, yet inaccurate judgements of his game continue.



[Edited by - JayNYC on 02/05/2005 04:53:26]

[Edited by - JayNYC on 02/05/2005 04:58:04]
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gunsnewing
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2/5/2005  6:36 AM
I agree the problem is he's not a franschise player and so far Isiah is forcing him to become one. His lack of leadership down the stretch costed us far too many games this year though.
Silverfuel
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2/5/2005  7:38 AM
Stephon is a tremendous basketball player. He passes the ball well, see's the court well and can basically score whenever he wants. He is extrememly strong (his nick name is Herculues!) so bigger PGs can't overpower him. He is quick as hell and has a good jump shot but he is no leader. He is the best player on this team and he should recognize that he is and that its his job to make something happen.

This entire season he has been calling off the last second shot and everytime he does, we have lost the game. In the Detroit game he told Crawford to keep it when Craw looked at him as if saying "you want the ball?" In the Houston game, him and Crawford played catch with the shotclock expiring. Last night, 2 consecutive times with the lead on the line, Stephon dribbled the ball 5 feet away from the 3-point line before passing it to Penny. The second time (last possesion,) Stephon dribbled the ball for half a second before passing it to Penny who was being guarded. He didnt even look to drive.

Stephon was scoring at will in that game. He 37 with 4 minutes left and the Knicks had a 11 point lead. It's not his fault that the Knicks suck and have no talent, but last night, I felt Stephon should've taken it last night. He should've dominated the last 4 minutes like he dominated the entire game, just like Bibby dominated the game till the VERY end. Sacramento was not even on 1/2 their strength. They were missing CWebb, Peja and Mobely but they still beat us.

That loss broke my heart. And not just because we lost. Not just because we were leading the whole game and we choked. Not just because we couldnt hit FTs, play defense or even that we couldnt get a shot off on the last possesion. That loss broke my heart because Stephon Marbury did even attempt to win the game himself. He should've asked for the ball in huddle, tried to drive and pass it to an open man, shot the ball himself, gone right into traffic and scored/get fouled. It broke my heart to see that Stephon couldnt dominate the entire game like Bibby who only had Brad Miller to back him up.

It really broke my desire to see this group of knick players go to the playoffs. Last night made it clear that Stephon is nothing more than a 2nd option to a franchise player.
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Caseloads
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2/5/2005  8:49 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:

Stephon is a tremendous basketball player. He passes the ball well, see's the court well and can basically score whenever he wants. He is extrememly strong (his nick name is Herculues!) so bigger PGs can't overpower him. He is quick as hell and has a good jump shot but he is no leader. He is the best player on this team and he should recognize that he is and that its his job to make something happen.

This entire season he has been calling off the last second shot and everytime he does, we have lost the game. In the Detroit game he told Crawford to keep it when Craw looked at him as if saying "you want the ball?" In the Houston game, him and Crawford played catch with the shotclock expiring. Last night, 2 consecutive times with the lead on the line, Stephon dribbled the ball 5 feet away from the 3-point line before passing it to Penny. The second time (last possesion,) Stephon dribbled the ball for half a second before passing it to Penny who was being guarded. He didnt even look to drive.

Stephon was scoring at will in that game. He 37 with 4 minutes left and the Knicks had a 11 point lead. It's not his fault that the Knicks suck and have no talent, but last night, I felt Stephon should've taken it last night. He should've dominated the last 4 minutes like he dominated the entire game, just like Bibby dominated the game till the VERY end. Sacramento was not even on 1/2 their strength. They were missing CWebb, Peja and Mobely but they still beat us.

That loss broke my heart. And not just because we lost. Not just because we were leading the whole game and we choked. Not just because we couldnt hit FTs, play defense or even that we couldnt get a shot off on the last possesion. That loss broke my heart because Stephon Marbury did even attempt to win the game himself. He should've asked for the ball in huddle, tried to drive and pass it to an open man, shot the ball himself, gone right into traffic and scored/get fouled. It broke my heart to see that Stephon couldnt dominate the entire game like Bibby who only had Brad Miller to back him up.

It really broke my desire to see this group of knick players go to the playoffs. Last night made it clear that Stephon is nothing more than a 2nd option to a franchise player.
just like garnett is a 2nd option to a franchise player
Silverfuel
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2/5/2005  8:55 AM
Posted by Caseloads:
Posted by Silverfuel:

Last night made it clear that Stephon is nothing more than a 2nd option to a franchise player.
just like garnett is a 2nd option to a franchise player
Come on man, I really dont think Stephon is anything more than a 2nd option. I am not "dissing" him but trying to make an assesment. I dont think we will be able to win a championship with Stephon as the best the player on the team.
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djsunyc
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2/5/2005  9:49 AM
think of it this way:

the team lost like 6 games now by 2 points or less and 12 or so games by 6 points or less.

it's like we just need a player to change those outcomes and we're an over .500 team. if we get two more players, we possibly win all those games. that's a 15-20 game turnaround.

but those players better be "smarter" and know how to play defense.
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The Sacr game has convinced me. Nothing has changed over the last 3 years
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