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The Marbury Problem
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TMS
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2/5/2005  4:59 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

Marbury's problem is that he's a bad defender & he shies away from taking that last shot when the game is on the line, deferring to teammates instead...when you're the man on your team, you need to be the one to take that last shot...that's what separates bigtime players.
Now we're all down on Marbury, but he's the same player who's hit many game winners including one against the Spurs in the playoffs

many game winners for us? i haven't seen many to be honest...you want to point out 1 game in the playoffs & label him a bigtime player, go right ahead...when i say "bigtime" i'm talking clutch guy who's fearless in the closing seconds of a game on a consistent basis...a good example is Mike Bibby last night in fact...he throws up a 3 w/Stephon right in his face & drains it...& that's not even including how many playoff games in recent pass he's done that...Marbury's a much more talented player, but he lacks that killer instinct imho.

[Edited by - TMS on 02/05/2005 17:00:57]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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Bonn1997
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2/5/2005  5:02 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

Marbury's problem is that he's a bad defender & he shies away from taking that last shot when the game is on the line, deferring to teammates instead...when you're the man on your team, you need to be the one to take that last shot...that's what separates bigtime players.
Now we're all down on Marbury, but he's the same player who's hit many game winners including one against the Spurs in the playoffs

many game winners for us? i haven't seen many to be honest...you want to point out 1 game in the playoffs & label him a bigtime player, go right ahead...when i say "bigtime" i'm talking clutch guy who's fearless in the closing seconds of a game on a consistent basis...a good example is Mike Bibby last night in fact...he throws up a 3 w/Stephon right in his face & drains it...& that's not even including how many playoff games in recent pass he's done that...Marbury's a much more talented player, but he lacks that killer instinct imho.

[Edited by - TMS on 02/05/2005 17:00:57]
Is it the same killer instinct that Iverson and Pierce lacked last year? Maybe it's easy to look that way when you're exhausted, playing injured, and none of your teammates would be starters on a good team.
Silverfuel
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2/5/2005  5:04 PM
Just this season Marbury has passed up 3 times on last second shots.

1) Detroit game where he gestured Crawford ot go ahead with the shot instead asking for the ball.

2) Houston game where him and Crawford threw the ball to each other

3) Last night where he passed up on the last 2 possesions for the lead.

A leader, a franchise or even the main scoring option on the team should ask for the ball or ask the coach to draw up a play for him. Marbury did enough in the game but what pissed me off was watching Bibby outscore in the clutch last minutes of the game where Sac won the game.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
TMS
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2/5/2005  5:10 PM
Is it the same killer instinct that Iverson and Pierce lacked last year? Maybe it's easy to look that way when you're exhausted, playing injured, and none of your teammates would be starters on a good team.

Iverson? Pierce? PLEASE tell me you're not drawing clutch comparisons between those guys & Marbury...i think you watch more games than to be that short sighted...those are 2 of the more clutch players in the game...Marbury is a great player, but he passes up shots down the stretch when it matters most...we've seen it time & time again...you're trying to make it sound as if this hasn't been said about Marbury until last night's game...gimme a break dude...don't give me the "he was tired" excuse...he was absolutely UNSTOPPABLE in the 2nd half...it made no sense for him to pass up the final shot to a Penny Hardaway who'd just MISSED on the prior attempt on a wide open jumper when he was at the top of the key w/Bibby guarding him who had his way with all game long on the offensive end.
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gunsnewing
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2/5/2005  5:30 PM
haha thats exactly the point i'm trying to make about the 4 games he costed us by choking at the line. But I agree the refusal to take the last shot every time is a lot more alarming.
bigpimpin
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2/5/2005  5:47 PM
best topic post i ever read on this forum
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
Bonn1997
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2/5/2005  8:25 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

haha thats exactly the point i'm trying to make about the 4 games he costed us by choking at the line. But I agree the refusal to take the last shot every time is a lot more alarming.
He cost us four games? So we'd be 22-24 with this team without him? That's a good one. I bet it would be closer to 8-38
TMS
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2/5/2005  8:54 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:

haha thats exactly the point i'm trying to make about the 4 games he costed us by choking at the line. But I agree the refusal to take the last shot every time is a lot more alarming.
He cost us four games? So we'd be 22-24 with this team without him? That's a good one. I bet it would be closer to 8-38

do you have to twist everything everyone ever says? guns didn't say the knicks would be 22-24 w/o Marbury...he said Marbury's reluctance to shoot & his missed FT's late in games has cost them 4 wins this year.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
rojasmas
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2/5/2005  8:57 PM
Marbury had a great game. 15-19 is great. Half your FT's is not. Either is allowing your man to score 40 when you have such a great game. Lastly, he didn't want any part of the last shot. He passed to Hardaway and today in the paper says he expected it back. Who knows. But the great ones who aren't double teamed wouldn't have given up the ball in the first place with less than ten seconds left. He seems to have a fear of being the goat, when even if he misses, he wouldn't be.
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Silverfuel
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2/5/2005  9:01 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:

haha thats exactly the point i'm trying to make about the 4 games he costed us by choking at the line. But I agree the refusal to take the last shot every time is a lot more alarming.
He cost us four games? So we'd be 22-24 with this team without him? That's a good one. I bet it would be closer to 8-38
He is not doubting that Marbury is the best player or the most important player on this Knicks team. He was merely refering to the missed FTs and not taking the last second shots as a negative.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
gunsnewing
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2/5/2005  9:24 PM
no he costed us 7 games. 4 because of missed FTs and at least 3 because he was afraid to take the last shot.

I'm not doubting Stephon I'm doubting the idea of Zeke making him our franchise player. A franchise player doesn't single-handedly cost you 7 games. If he takes the last shot and misses it then you live with it

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 02/05/2005 21:31:28]
Bonn1997
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2/6/2005  7:39 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:

haha thats exactly the point i'm trying to make about the 4 games he costed us by choking at the line. But I agree the refusal to take the last shot every time is a lot more alarming.
He cost us four games? So we'd be 22-24 with this team without him? That's a good one. I bet it would be closer to 8-38

do you have to twist everything everyone ever says? guns didn't say the knicks would be 22-24 w/o Marbury...he said Marbury's reluctance to shoot & his missed FT's late in games has cost them 4 wins this year.
Okay, if that's what he meant, then I'm sure even guys like Garnett and Lebron have cost their teams a few games this year too
gunsnewing
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2/6/2005  7:46 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:

haha thats exactly the point i'm trying to make about the 4 games he costed us by choking at the line. But I agree the refusal to take the last shot every time is a lot more alarming.
He cost us four games? So we'd be 22-24 with this team without him? That's a good one. I bet it would be closer to 8-38

do you have to twist everything everyone ever says? guns didn't say the knicks would be 22-24 w/o Marbury...he said Marbury's reluctance to shoot & his missed FT's late in games has cost them 4 wins this year.
Okay, if that's what he meant, then I'm sure even guys like Garnett and Lebron have cost their teams a few games this year too

not by missing free throws 4 times and always refusing to take the last shot.

your missing the point...I'm sure KG has taken a few last second shots and missed them but he is their best player. You live with your best player taking the last shot. Steph is our best player. Steph was hot that game he should've taken the last shot or at least nt dribble or half a second then panic and give it to penny with triple coverage on him.
Bonn1997
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2/6/2005  7:49 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:

haha thats exactly the point i'm trying to make about the 4 games he costed us by choking at the line. But I agree the refusal to take the last shot every time is a lot more alarming.
He cost us four games? So we'd be 22-24 with this team without him? That's a good one. I bet it would be closer to 8-38

do you have to twist everything everyone ever says? guns didn't say the knicks would be 22-24 w/o Marbury...he said Marbury's reluctance to shoot & his missed FT's late in games has cost them 4 wins this year.
Okay, if that's what he meant, then I'm sure even guys like Garnett and Lebron have cost their teams a few games this year too

not by missing free throws 4 times and always refusing to take the last shot.

your missing the point...I'm sure KG has taken a few last second shots and missed them but he is their best player. You live with your best player taking the last shot. Steph is our best player. Steph was hot that game he should've taken the last shot or at least nt dribble or half a second then panic and give it to penny with triple coverage on him.
I didn't see this one game but it's amazing how much people will kill a player over one game here. Even if he had an awful game, I wouldn't kill him over one game. The fact that he had 37 makes it more ridiculous
gunsnewing
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2/6/2005  7:52 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:

haha thats exactly the point i'm trying to make about the 4 games he costed us by choking at the line. But I agree the refusal to take the last shot every time is a lot more alarming.
He cost us four games? So we'd be 22-24 with this team without him? That's a good one. I bet it would be closer to 8-38

do you have to twist everything everyone ever says? guns didn't say the knicks would be 22-24 w/o Marbury...he said Marbury's reluctance to shoot & his missed FT's late in games has cost them 4 wins this year.
Okay, if that's what he meant, then I'm sure even guys like Garnett and Lebron have cost their teams a few games this year too

not by missing free throws 4 times and always refusing to take the last shot.

your missing the point...I'm sure KG has taken a few last second shots and missed them but he is their best player. You live with your best player taking the last shot. Steph is our best player. Steph was hot that game he should've taken the last shot or at least nt dribble or half a second then panic and give it to penny with triple coverage on him.
I didn't see this one game but it's amazing how much people will kill a player over one game here. Even if he had an awful game, I wouldn't kill him over one game. The fact that he had 37 makes it more ridiculous

1 game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

are u crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

he costed us a game just last week versus Houston when instead of taking the last shot and putting the pressure squarely on him as leaders do he passed it to Jamal again for a 24 second violation. Then Padgett won the game on the last play!
Bonn1997
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2/6/2005  7:58 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:

haha thats exactly the point i'm trying to make about the 4 games he costed us by choking at the line. But I agree the refusal to take the last shot every time is a lot more alarming.
He cost us four games? So we'd be 22-24 with this team without him? That's a good one. I bet it would be closer to 8-38

do you have to twist everything everyone ever says? guns didn't say the knicks would be 22-24 w/o Marbury...he said Marbury's reluctance to shoot & his missed FT's late in games has cost them 4 wins this year.
Okay, if that's what he meant, then I'm sure even guys like Garnett and Lebron have cost their teams a few games this year too

not by missing free throws 4 times and always refusing to take the last shot.

your missing the point...I'm sure KG has taken a few last second shots and missed them but he is their best player. You live with your best player taking the last shot. Steph is our best player. Steph was hot that game he should've taken the last shot or at least nt dribble or half a second then panic and give it to penny with triple coverage on him.
I didn't see this one game but it's amazing how much people will kill a player over one game here. Even if he had an awful game, I wouldn't kill him over one game. The fact that he had 37 makes it more ridiculous

1 game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

are u crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

he costed us a game just last week versus Houston when instead of taking the last shot and putting the pressure squarely on him as leaders do he passed it to Jamal again for a 24 second violation. Then Padgett won the game on the last play!
I wasn't referring to just you. I was referring to everyone who's killing him over the Sac game.
TMS
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2/6/2005  2:27 PM
I didn't see this one game

watch it & then tell me who should have taken that last shot...that's all i'm going to say.
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2/6/2005  3:33 PM
Bonn and guns, there's no use in just quoting the same stuff over and over again, it takes forever to find what you actually wrote. To quote like a page of stuff and then to add a sentence is a waste.
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MS
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2/6/2005  3:49 PM
The Knicks can win with Marbury but not with this team....Stephon is not unlucky, he makes bad decisions on a nightly basis, he is a jump passer drives into traffic and takes bad shots....he is so gifted and can get to the basket whenever he pleases.....

He lost us the Houston game with bad decision making, he lost us the clippers game with a horrific stretch of turnovers, and made chocked in Sacto.....He was getting to the rim whenever he wanted the whistle was being blown all night, a smart point guard takes the ball to the basket and doesn't give it to a player that maybe played the worst final min in NBA history.....Marbury is not an all-star, doesn't deserve to be, his team is terrible, his leadership is bad and he is a complainer, Wade is a better player, as is iverson

Crawford does a lot of good things, but this bullsit about size, i am hearing is so dumb, he has no basketball IQ he can get by people but when he hear the "ewwws and awws" he almost always fires up terrible shots, rarely sets his feet, and takes shots when no one is under the boards, early in the clock, and then doesn't hustle....He has long arms and plays the passing lanes well, but his defense is scary, never fights through screens, rarely like Marbury do they ever get a hand up.....He has been in the league for three seasons, he should know by now when to shoot off his penetration and when to dish.....

The guards problems are only magnify by Naz, who is one of the worst defenders at his position, he never steps up, loses his man boxing out, and can't guard a sole......

TT getting hurt was a blessing for the team because Ariza is getting valuable mins, and learning how to play the game, but he is hustling making up for his rookie mistakes.......

If Marbury gets someone else to shoulder the load then he can still be the player everyone envisioned but it starts by leading, not complaining, Kurt Thomas should have kicked his ass in practice, so maybe he gets a little perspective, he got lit up by Bibby, and Nash.....It starts with a defensive commitment, you don't play d, you have no pride....plain and simple
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2/6/2005  6:04 PM
Big Sm00th, terrific post. I agree with just about everything you say.

Anyone who thinks the problem with the Knicks is Marbury has no clue. If we have 100 problems, Marbury is No. 99.

The bottom line is we need to lose our dead weight (everyone but Marbury, Crawford, Ariza and, maybe, Sweetney), collect draft picks and get under the cap by 2007.

And, of course, we need to hire a coach who will preach two things: Hard work and defense.

People forget that when Riley took over, the Knicks were just as dysfunctional as they are today. No, they were not quite as awful, mainly because they had Ewing, but they were huge underachievers, nonetheless (39-43 in 1990-91), with horrible coaching. Riley came in, demanded hard work and defense (EVERY NIGHT!!!), and we immediately won 51 games and took the Bulls to seven games in the second round. A year later, we went to the East finals, then to the NBA Finals. I realize we had Ewing, but the point is, the main reason the Knicks were succesful and were able to compete with the MJ-led Bulls (before MJ retired the first time) was because the team had a coach who knew how to get the most out of his team. Someone like Phil Jackson can do the same. Wilkens was such a joke, it's beyond laughable.

And I agree that we can get something for KT. He does not have a huge contract (a very reasonable $7.5 mil per), and he can provide a team on the cusp with a very valuable weapon up front. Teams on the brink of winning a title would gladly give up a No. 1 and something else for a KT, and maybe for Nazr as well.
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