What is a shame is that at this point in time, for what ever the reason, we are WORSE NOW THEN WE WERE 14 months ago, and have more salary to boot.

The unknown is we don't know what could have been done to make our outlook better under Layden, or if Isiah had taken a differen route.

ANd no, we can't say that we'd be frozen in time with Eisley, fatspoon and Shandon, we coujld have moved some of those contracts for somthing, and likley drafted higher. Maybe no Ariza, but we'd still be accumulating assets and building for a future. Im not convinced Laydog was going to Starphuch again, but we can't really speculate the WHAT IFS.

I know that right now, at this moment we really really suck, and the only one hurt right now is Allan, and TT. Allan might be shot, and craw was bought in to replace him. TT is covered by Penny, Reezy, and the JYD, but lets be real, the sum of the pieces are not working out. Player for player, on paper we are better, but its just now working!

There were many anti marbury fans from the get-go whom said he may be a cancer and not good for the team. At this moment in time, this is true. He is a huge talent, can shoot, and can gain assists but at the same time is selfish and not making those around him better. He is the leader of a team has very low self esteem. This "attitude" must be put on his shoulders as one of the failing reasons. If reports are true that he is ignoring the coaches, and the majority of players are afraid of him, then this is a bad situation. HE needs some major doses of ZEN. I suggest Phil take him to an indian reservation and he can trip out on some shrooms. He then goes to the mexico and trip out with some aztecs on some mescale. In July, PHil takes home down the Amazon on some Coke based trip. All in hopes of finding truth and peace within. Then to Africa to hand with the Lion King and learn about pride, then finally off to Tibet to clear out his mind with the buddahs. This is better than hanging IN LA in the off season with his parisite rap friends! Nothing against rap mind you, but Steph does not need more people telling him how great he is, he needs guidence!

Im down with playing Sweets and Reezy, but they are still raw and Sweets lethargic nights are almost equal to his good nites. This worries me. He shoud further along!

Do we have a future?, lets just say its not all that clear.

I do think we had a window to rebuild and the path Isiah has taken for some short term results are really off track. His credibility at this time should be questioned. It was at the time of hiring.

I can see if the team was trying hard, not fighting, and working together. Like they did in 2002-3 under chaney. They sucked, but almost made the playoffs and worked with pride and had nice chemistry.

This team has taken on a differernt personality, and if Marbs is the leader I don't like whats going on. There is more than physical talent in this game, there is leadership and its a team game.

We approach the mid season break I can only say I am hugely disappointed in the current pathetic state and like Layden before him, I will root for Isiah to do good, and ultimatly prove to be an excelent president, and a good judge of talent! I root for all of our players, and really hope that Steph wakes up and realizes the greatness he so craves is not in being the best player on the floor, but by night after night being the leader of the best team on the floor!

He has the money, he has the Cred, he has it all except one thing, he is not a winner. And life is much better when your remembered as a winner. Ask Joe Montana, John Elway, Doug Williams, Joe Namath, and Terry Bradshaw. All really good statwise, but the greatness is from winning. Jim Kelly went to 4 superbowls. Jim was as good as any QB, Jim lost 4 of them. He don't get a lifetime pass of endorsements and TV appearences. He got the money, he is a real good guy by the way. But He does not have the "great one" title the others.

This season is not just about him, but this "attidude" does have an effect on the other players. As I said, you don't have to always win, but they can try.

Is this team much better than the one from two years ago? On paper yes, but that team would tear this one apart with defense and hustle!

ANd in just this moment if we must judge, this team we have right now really stinks! And that is a damm shame!

No more Starphuching, and no more low character over paid guys!

How do you know if the sum of the pieces add up when there is more to be added. Give him his 3 years then we can start calling for his head. Sometimes you have to take one step back to take 2 forward.

Another thing to consider is sometimes it just takes time. The example that sticks out above all others to me is Detroit. They were 32-50. Stackhouse may have even won a scoring title that year. Big Ben put up great numbers but they couldnt win games. The next year they added Cliff Robinson and Rick Carlisle came in to coach, and they went 50-32. No other major changes were made and they had an 18 game turnaround.

Now I wouldnt hold my breath for that kind of swing from the Knicks, but sometimes patience does pay off.

sometimes guys need to lose like that before they change their ways and buy into a system. Who knows... look, this team needs major frontcourt upgrades, but we can do that, and I'm not talking about Elton Brand and Tim Duncan. There are viable options out there

Posted by Clean:

How do you know if the sum of the pieces add up when there is more to be added. Give him his 3 years then we can start calling for his head. Sometimes you have to take one step back to take 2 forward.

WE did a big remodel with experisced players, and added millions to the salary.

Im not askng for his head, I agree to give it time. I root for him to do well.

Taking steps back was not what the remodel was about. Rebuilding by taking off contracts, and trading for picks is taking a step back. Trding your no.1, is not, taking on Penny is not. That whole trade made us much better, and we paid a price of salary additon for it.

Trade Lampe, Vujanic, NO. Eisley for Marbs and Penny? Thats a big step in talent! But not a step back. Trade KVH and Doleac for Nazr and TT, its was suppose to help us right away. Othella, Mutumbo, etc, for Craw? Right away!

Posted by fishmike:

Another thing to consider is sometimes it just takes time. The example that sticks out above all others to me is Detroit. They were 32-50. Stackhouse may have even won a scoring title that year. Big Ben put up great numbers but they couldnt win games. The next year they added Cliff Robinson and Rick Carlisle came in to coach, and they went 50-32. No other major changes were made and they had an 18 game turnaround.

Now I wouldnt hold my breath for that kind of swing from the Knicks, but sometimes patience does pay off.

I do buy into the whole chemistry takes time- but we took a major step back in January when things should have gotten better, not worse- and that doesn't make sense...unless someone on the team happens to be a cancer.

Doesn't this loosing streak coincide as much with the injuries to players as it does with Marbury's "I'm the best PG" statement?

Posted by fishmike:

forget about that... right now the Marbury trade is looking better and better from a talent standpoint. Utah got nothing with the pick we gave up. Who knows if Humphries can play. Vujanic isnt coming over and Lampe has been traded to a team with like 12 wins, no frontcourt and he cant get off the bench. In fact I think he's had 3 DNPs in a row. Maybe he blossums at some point, who knows. Isiah said he didnt take BBall seriously. Pho dumped him, NO isnt playing him. Tell me again (with no chance of cap space for ourselves) how the Marbury trade hurt us.

If we traded Marbury straight up we probably get a hell of a lot more than what we gave up talent wise, and all it would have costed us is cash.

Thats my point, we got back a lot of talent and gave up none. That was not taking a step back in rebuilding!

But, its not working! Thats is what is scaring me. We got the best PG in the League, and I wonder if he has not infected HIS team? This is his gig! Taking a step forward with talnet, but Three backwards because of chemistry is really sad!

Its sad that Penny is like our best player right now, and he is a broken down piece of crap bag of bones!

ANd he does not expire for another year!

Posted by fishmike:

forget about that... right now the Marbury trade is looking better and better from a talent standpoint. Utah got nothing with the pick we gave up. Who knows if Humphries can play. Vujanic isnt coming over and Lampe has been traded to a team with like 12 wins, no frontcourt and he cant get off the bench. In fact I think he's had 3 DNPs in a row. Maybe he blossums at some point, who knows. Isiah said he didnt take BBall seriously. Pho dumped him, NO isnt playing him. Tell me again (with no chance of cap space for ourselves) how the Marbury trade hurt us.

If we traded Marbury straight up we probably get a hell of a lot more than what we gave up talent wise, and all it would have costed us is cash.

Just to be technical I think Utah used our pick for Snyder not Humphries.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by fishmike:

forget about that... right now the Marbury trade is looking better and better from a talent standpoint. Utah got nothing with the pick we gave up. Who knows if Humphries can play. Vujanic isnt coming over and Lampe has been traded to a team with like 12 wins, no frontcourt and he cant get off the bench. In fact I think he's had 3 DNPs in a row. Maybe he blossums at some point, who knows. Isiah said he didnt take BBall seriously. Pho dumped him, NO isnt playing him. Tell me again (with no chance of cap space for ourselves) how the Marbury trade hurt us.

If we traded Marbury straight up we probably get a hell of a lot more than what we gave up talent wise, and all it would have costed us is cash.

That's true. In fact, with Ariza, we got someone better than most teams get with mid 1st rd picks. If we had kept that pick at #16, Ariza would have been a good pick there too. All we really gave up for Marbury were some expiring contracts, the equivalent of ONE first round pick, and 2 years of Penny (who I can easily tolerate for 2 seasons).

Thats right, we gave up almost nothing, but it ain't working, Marbs infects treams with his strong, but negative peronality!

He must change otherwise we won't improve until he is gone !

I have no prolem with the talent we got, but we suck, and if he can't make those around him better, he is not the franchise player we were told were getting.

I can live with Anfernees money. I like Crawford, I like all the upgrades we made. I never expectd much, just as I said, its NOT ADDING UP! THE SUM OF THESE UPGRADES DOES NOT MAKE FOR MORE WINS, ITS LESS!

I reiterate, this is about the current moment.

It should be so easy. Only thing is nobody took DEFENSE and HEART into account. The two most important parts of basketball that we just happened to decide didn't matter. That's why the situation seems so terrible - sure, we can give it time, and the team may rebound and start to win some more. But you honestly think we're going to become that better defensively and gain so much heart? When the going gets tough... Crawford wants out (see his comments while in Chicago) Marbury becomes suddenly a victim (see "All Alone" in New Jersey) TT starts pointing fingers (see: career).

I remember the infamous statement "the Knicks will never win a championship with ward and childs running the show"

Well, the Knicks will also never win a championship with Marbury running the show.

Please prove me wrong...

I haven't given up on Marbury either, b/c the more I think of it, the more I realize how much better it is to have him on the team than not him. But I am still giving him the end of next season. I don't want to see anymore of this ego crap from him. If he's truely all about winning, then it's time for him to show it. He definitely can improve his defense. He's probably at about where Allan was, at the same age, defensively. We'll see.

I am not a Marbury fan or hater. It's time for him to show us something though, and it's not just about scoring points. It's time for him to extend his game even more.