Reasonable take, IMHO.

I think the same thing can be asked about Ewing early in his career. Ewing was on some pretty bad teams without other players to compliment him.


Knicks Need Winners, Not Stars
by Chad


Is Stephon Marbury a loser?

Let's just get it out on the table now, because Tuesday night, when Steve Nash and the Suns show up at Madison Square Garden, this debate is going to happen … again.

The perception is that Tuesday's matchup will be the tale of two points guards.

The Suns are led by the NBA's most selfless point guard – a guy who leads the league in assists and only takes shots when there's no one on the floor with a better one.

Steve Nash (left), Stephon Marbury
In 1995, Nash (left) helped Santa Clara to victory over Marbury's Georgia Tech.
The Knicks are led by the NBA's self-proclaimed best point guard – a guy who fills up a stat sheet everywhere but where it counts: in the victory column.

But is the perception rooted in fact? Marbury has been one of the most consistent and productive players in the NBA the past seven years. Is he really to blame?

The debate about Marbury and the "L-word" will continue to rage in Minneapolis, East Rutherford, N.J., Phoenix, New York City and any of his other potential NBA stops until a Marbury-led team either wins more than 50 games and a playoff series (or two) or falls apart after he leaves.

Unfortunately for Steph, a 50-victory season and sustained playoff success have not been hallmarks of his seven-year career.

The tale of the tape is tough to ignore. Marbury has never led a team to more than 45 victories in a season or a playoff series victory. The other side of the coin is even more unsavory.

Every team Stephon has played for has gone on to enormous success the season after he left the team. Last season's Suns were 12-27 when Marbury left the team. This year, their record is 32-6 when Nash is in the starting lineup.

Even his stint as the starting point guard on Team USA in the 2004 Athens Olympics ended in disaster.

Maybe that's why he created such a stir earlier in the month when he proclaimed himself the best point guard in the NBA.

With the exception of his mother, his groupies over at Slam magazine and Knicks president Isiah Thomas, he doesn't have a helluva lot of support for his proclamation.

Everyone from his former teammates in Phoenix to his current head coach on the Knicks, Herb Williams, concedes Nash is the best point guard in the league right now.

"He can get in the paint; he's real crafty with the ball; he finds their 3-point shooters," Williams said of Nash. "Without him, that show doesn't run."

"[Nash's] getting everyone the ball. Everyone loves a teammate that gets you the ball in a position to score," Shawn Marion, Marbury's former teammate, told Insider earlier this month when comparing Nash and Marbury. "Last year we had so many guys who could score, yet our point guard was taking a lot of the shots. That's the difference."

Suns center Amare Stoudemire put it more succinctly.

"Nash creates opportunities to get easy baskets. The game of basketball isn't easy. But he helps make it easy. ... That's what real point guards do."

Marbury claims the criticism doesn't sting. Maybe it shouldn't. Other top players like Grant Hill, Elton Brand and Andre Miller have never won a playoff series. Until last spring, the league's MVP, Kevin Garnett, had not gotten out of the first round. None of them have taken the beating Marbury has.

Marbury has consistently ranked as one of the top four or five point guards in the NBA every year. Even when using more sophisticated statistical tools like plus/minus and player efficiency ratings, Marbury's career, on paper, has been a success. He is one of the best scorers in the league, can get to the basket whenever he wants, creates numerous shots for himself and his teammates, never misses a game and he's fun to watch.

He even has rational explanations for the failure of his teams. Every team he's played for has sustained substantial injuries that have contributed to the team's woes. Could the lack of a supporting cast be the real reason for his failure?

"I've always been 'team(-oriented),' " Marbury said earlier this month.

"I've just got players [now] that can finish – it's not just myself making plays. It's totally different when Jason Kidd was playing with Kenyon Martin, as opposed to the guys that he's playing with now. It makes the game totally different. You can't be as effective.


Stephon Marbury
Point Guard
New York Knicks
Profile


2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS
GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%
40 20.7 3.0 8.5 .462 .846

"Myself, with me being in the situation that I'm in right now, that Isiah has put me in, where he's [put] guys around me that can really play."

However, if Marbury is such a good player and is finally surrounded guys who "can really play," why are the Knicks so bad?

Despite another season of all-star type numbers for Stephon (he ranks third in the NBA in assists with 8.5 per game), the Knicks have lost nine of their last 10 and are embarking on a brutal Western Conference road stretch in their schedule that could leave them with a 2-20 mark from the start of January through mid-February.

"Right now, it's garbage, the way we've played," Marbury told reporters Monday. "It's amazing how you're judged. If you win a championship, it's not you, it's the team. When you're losing, it's you. You really can't win either way."

If point guards are supposed to elevate the team, make an offense flow and lead the team to victory, the Knicks' rebuilding plan might be in serious trouble.


Steve Nash
Point Guard
Phoenix Suns
Profile


2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS
GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%
39 15.7 3.1 10.9 .519 .916
Why? Because Stephon is the Knicks' rebuilding plan.

"You take him away, what's left?" coach Williams said on Monday.

Knicks president Isiah Thomas sees himself in Stephon. Marbury sells tickets, plays with a flair and few guards in the league can rack up his numbers or match his durability.

That's why in the hundreds of trade conversations Thomas has had since bringing Marbury on board last winter, and the countless blueprints the Knicks have agonized over to rebuild the team, the idea of trading Marbury has never grown any legs.

Ousted coach Lenny Wilkens had many faults. He paid almost no attention to defense. He was quiet, mild-mannered, affable and didn't motivate millionaires the way he should have. But according to a league source, it was when he approached Thomas with the idea that Marbury might be the guy who needs to go that Wilkens – who "resigned" Jan. 22 – finally was shown the door.

Talk of Phil Jackson or Larry Brown coaching the Knicks is ultimately absurd. Neither has much of a tolerance for players like Marbury. As coach of the Lakers, Jackson couldn't stand Kobe Bryant, and Kobe was winning titles. Brown could never totally reconcile with Allen Iverson, despite the fact The Answer actually got the 76ers to the NBA Finals. If he insists on rebuilding around Marbury, Isiah doesn't have much wiggle room to fix the Knicks.

Stephon Marbury, Lenny Wilkens
The Knicks' insistence on building around Marbury (left) pushed Wilkens out of the picture.
In the past six weeks, Isiah has focused on making more changes to Marbury's supporting cast. Penny Hardaway, Tim Thomas and Kurt Thomas are the latest Knicks rumored to be out the door. Isiah has been working frantically the last month to package them in a trade for another scorer. The latest has him reportedly offering Hardaway and Kurt Thomas to the Raptors for Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall.

It's just one of a hundred rumors that has made its way out of New York the past month as Thomas works the phones in a twisted game of musical chairs with bad contracts and flawed players.

The solutions Isiah is pursuing don't address the core of the problem in New York. Coaches don't work the phones and sign the checks. Role players don't run the team.

Isiah rightly believes that players are ultimately judged by winning.

"At the end of (Marbury's) career, you're judged by the rings on your finger," Thomas said last season. "Fortunately enough for him, he's been man enough to accept the challenge and responsibility to go for it, and try to achieve it. There are a lot of players that have run from that responsibility."

Marbury either has to figure out how to use his special talents to win, or Isiah has to surround him with players whose talents mesh better with Stephon's. Neither is happening in New York right now.

Marbury and the GMs who have tried to build teams around him haven't solved the mystery. Call him selfish. Blame it on bad karma. There are enough excuses to go around.

Just about everywhere Marbury has played, he's been the best player on his team. But until Marbury figures out how to get some of that talent to rub off on his teammates or Isiah finds him teammates whose winning attitude is contagious, the Knicks are going nowhere.

OMG, I think I just saw a pig fly by my window. I actually find myself agreeing with Chad on certain points.

Posted by MaTT4281:

OMG, I think I just saw a pig fly by my window. I actually find myself agreeing with Chad on certain points.

I tried to ignore who the author was...but...even a broken clock is right 2 times in a day.

Posted by NYKBocker:

"[Nash's] getting everyone the ball. Everyone loves a teammate that gets you the ball in a position to score," Shawn Marion, Marbury's former teammate, told Insider earlier this month when comparing Nash and Marbury. "Last year we had so many guys who could score, yet our point guard was taking a lot of the shots. That's the difference."

Suns center Amare Stoudemire put it more succinctly.

"Nash creates opportunities to get easy baskets. The game of basketball isn't easy. But he helps make it easy. ... That's what real point guards do."

Ouch! Man, truth hurts. I posted this on another thread and I am not sure if anyone else noticed it...but...The Knicks were winning games before when Marbury was dishing, dishing and dishing some more. He wouldn't take a shot till he had like 12 assists to his name for the game. Then some idiot asked him who the best PG is in the game, then all of a sudden he is averaging 20plus points per game and guys like Nazr are reduced to mediocre numbers. He needs to get back to penetrating and dishing for the easy dunks. If you make your BIGs happy they will more of the dirty work for you.

thats because early in the season he had Crawford to pass it too and Nazr was hot. Now he has no one. Lets see if he keeps feeding Sweetney

Marbury was not the reason for Suns having that horrible start to the season. He only played 10games with Stoud. & Marion was injured as well. But Nash is just a way better fit with his style of play. They had no problem with Marbury when they won 44games before and pushed Spurs to the limit every game in the playoffs.

Good point about lets see if he gets Sweetney the ball more. I hope Herb enforces it and then we can see how Marbury responds.

This team shouldn't be about Marbury creating shots for everyone. We need great team ball movement. Remeber what we did vs Orlando. We need more guys who can put the ball on the floor.

sometimes you get lucky & catch lightning in a bottle...were Chauncey Billups & Rasheed Wallace considered "winners" before they joined the Pistons? this year, they're not half as good as they looked last year...did they all of a sudden just forget how to win? if you put Ben Wallace on the Knicks, do we all of a sudden win an NBA title? it's not about certain players being winners & losers, it's about finding the right mix of players that complement each other well & then getting some good chemistry along w/some lucky breaks & bounces that can catapult you to an NBA championship...w/o Chauncey's halfcourt prayer at the buzzer in game 7 of last year's Eastern Conference Finals against the Nets, the Pistons don't win the NBA title last year.

all this "Stephon is a loser" stuff is crap IMHO...put him on a team w/guys w/talent & if they can gel as a team, they can win a championship...this team has never been able to find the right formula...it's a work in progress...that doesn't mean that as long as Stephon is here we have no shot at winning an NBA title.

Posted by TMS:

sometimes you get lucky & catch lightning in a bottle...were Chauncey Billups & Rasheed Wallace considered "winners" before they joined the Pistons? this year, they're not half as good as they looked last year...did they all of a sudden just forget how to win? if you put Ben Wallace on the Knicks, do we all of a sudden win an NBA title? it's not about certain players being winners & losers, it's about finding the right mix of players that complement each other well & then getting some good chemistry along w/some lucky breaks & bounces that can catapult you to an NBA championship...w/o Chauncey's halfcourt prayer at the buzzer in game 7 of last year's Eastern Conference Finals against the Nets, the Pistons don't win the NBA title last year.

all this "Stephon is a loser" stuff is crap IMHO...put him on a team w/guys w/talent & if they can gel as a team, they can win a championship...this team has never been able to find the right formula...it's a work in progress...that doesn't mean that as long as Stephon is here we have no shot at winning an NBA title.

TMS I've missed your wise input. You haven't been posting as much as you use to.

You could add Arenas & Jaimison to that mix. Lamar Odom from LA to Miami to that mix. But in order to win you must take chances on guys like these.

It can all turn around so fast. A simple move like trading Muhamamd for Kwame Brown(just an example) then Kwame Brown who is considerd a bust and a cry baby turns it lose and all of a sudden Marbury-Crawford-Kwame Brown become one of the NBA's deadlies 3 somes and Sweetney excells by just crashing the boards and doing the dirty work. But none of that happends unless you take a chance on a Marbury-Crawford & Brown. Or if we draft wisly and land a stud then Marbury-Crawford & our #1 pick turns everything around for us.

Posted by TMS:

sometimes you get lucky & catch lightning in a bottle...were Chauncey Billups & Rasheed Wallace considered "winners" before they joined the Pistons? this year, they're not half as good as they looked last year...did they all of a sudden just forget how to win? if you put Ben Wallace on the Knicks, do we all of a sudden win an NBA title? it's not about certain players being winners & losers, it's about finding the right mix of players that complement each other well & then getting some good chemistry along w/some lucky breaks & bounces that can catapult you to an NBA championship...w/o Chauncey's halfcourt prayer at the buzzer in game 7 of last year's Eastern Conference Finals against the Nets, the Pistons don't win the NBA title last year.

all this "Stephon is a loser" stuff is crap IMHO...put him on a team w/guys w/talent & if they can gel as a team, they can win a championship...this team has never been able to find the right formula...it's a work in progress...that doesn't mean that as long as Stephon is here we have no shot at winning an NBA title.

Ill agre with you. Anyone who says Mrbury stinks[i havent read much like that] is off their rocker.
the better question was he a good fit at the time for what we had-actually mor so last year than this to be honest.
Its a mess that doesnt fit together.
I really think somehow if we can be fortnate enough to draft Andrew Bogut and sign Stromiel Swift and use Nazr to find a solid wing player who shoots at +45% who can handle and drive--we could be much better quickly.


right now we have tremendous defecincies at every position.
Bogut would go a long way to helping sure up the C position. swift and Sweetney could be the other 2 30minute players.
We need someone who will replace TT and thats NOt ariza right now or for the near future.
And we need to make sure there is an emphasis on Craw to STOP taking 3s JUST STOP. Floaters mid range and drives only.

Next year, instead of the crp we have at the end of the bench must be replaced by much better quality.

i'm not sure who mentioned it but maybe it is time to move marbury to the SG and just let him go. let craw distribute and get the assists. i mean marbury has the ball in his hands so much, he's bound to get 7 assists but he's pigeonholed at the PG position by coaches, fans, and media.

if he should switch over to the 2, play the iverson role then we'll need a more "traditional" point guard to play defense and pass at the point so i'm not sure crawford is that guy right now but both players are very versatile and can beat anybody off the dribble.

and then assemble a squad of guys that just scramble all over the place on both ends of the court. everybody crashes the boards and everybody is rotating on defense.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 01/25/2005 17:02:49]

"his SLAM magazine groupies"
LMAO, they do kiss steph's ass in SLAM, its true, but its the best magazine out there.

yeah anyways a fair take I guess.

I would be all for moving Marbs to the 2. I would like to get Eric Snow or Bobby Jackson to play the point and ship J Craw in a package. Right now, you have both guards as turnstiles and big men who don't have an idea what to do when they have to help constantly.