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Nalod
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1/24/2005  1:00 PM


In the big scheme of things, I can't remember when we had two young players getting big minutes since Ewing and Jax!

This is a big turnaround and a step in the right direction.

If Isiah had paid out Shandon earlier we could have kept Andre Barrett.

Seems each team must have a EuroBig, and a Quick Midget role player!
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Allanfan20
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1/24/2005  1:00 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Allanfan20:

Yeah, Rich's question is a little bit more appropriate. Most teams at least have a couple of promising young players. They don't all have to be only 22. 24 or 25 is fine.

And yes, it is very exciting that we have Sweetney and Ariza developing, but they are the types of guys that you'd want to surround a franchise player with. Now, I am not saying tank the season. But I still would love to get that guy Bogat, if he's as good as Briggs says.
The time to get a franchise player is over one of the next two offseasons as the team has its best trade assets then.

You'd have to be willing to give up Sweetney, Ariza, or both, if you want to use our expiring contracts as trading pieces. No team will only take TT and Penny. Just ask Phoenix, even though they just traded Lampe, and Milos might not ever come over.

Again, I'm not rooting to tank the season, b/c I NEVER root for the Knicks to lose. Not even the season LeBron was coming out. However, I wont cry if we hit the lottery, and I wont cry if we're so bad the rest of the season, that we're in the top 7 or so spots. If we could get a franchise player in the draft, and just let TTs and Pennys contracts burn, we're in equally good shape.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
MX25
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1/24/2005  4:03 PM
Bonn your problem though with saying isiah has 2 young guys in which he is rebuilding with (sweetney and ariza) is that SWEETNEY WAS LAYDEN'S PICK! Isiah came here with Sweetney already on the team.


You giving him credit for someone he had nothing to do with being here.

That's like a GM coming to a team with 3 good prospects already there. And when those guys succeed the GM gets the credit for them. When infact he had nothing to do with them being on the team. He just got lucky.

And yes. I'd take Delfino over Ariza and Krstic over Sweetney.
Bonn1997
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1/24/2005  5:01 PM
Posted by MX25:

Bonn your problem though with saying isiah has 2 young guys in which he is rebuilding with (sweetney and ariza) is that SWEETNEY WAS LAYDEN'S PICK! Isiah came here with Sweetney already on the team.
You're disagreeing with Mike Sweetney himself, not with me. Mike has given a huge amount of credit to Aguire (who was hired by Isiah). Layden did nothing but set back Sweetney's growth. Isiah and Aguire are the reason why he's not still on the IR
Bonn1997
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1/24/2005  5:06 PM
Nalod: In the big scheme of things, I can't remember when we had two young players getting big minutes since Ewing and Jax!

This is a big turnaround and a step in the right direction.
Exactly; and it's okay to get some satisfaction out of that even if the team is struggling right now. That was my main point.


You'd have to be willing to give up Sweetney, Ariza, or both, if you want to use our expiring contracts as trading pieces.
In the right deal, no one is untradeable. The expiring contracts would obviously be only a portion of any deal. As you eloquently put it, we'll have the right pieces (Sweetney, Ariza, maybe Jamal too) over the summer to potentially combine with expiring contracts in order to sweeten deals.
islesfan
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1/24/2005  5:36 PM
Posted by MX25:

Bonn your problem though with saying isiah has 2 young guys in which he is rebuilding with (sweetney and ariza) is that SWEETNEY WAS LAYDEN'S PICK! Isiah came here with Sweetney already on the team.


You giving him credit for someone he had nothing to do with being here.

That's like a GM coming to a team with 3 good prospects already there. And when those guys succeed the GM gets the credit for them. When infact he had nothing to do with them being on the team. He just got lucky.

And yes. I'd take Delfino over Ariza and Krstic over Sweetney.

Not even that but Sweetney was here last year when supposedly Bonn thinks we were dead last in the entire league in terms of having young players worth developing. But now Sweetney is part of the reason why we've moved up to 15th in his mind. Maybe next year we can still claim Sweetney as a piece we just added to keep up with the "2 a year" pace that we're supposedly on. And the year after and the year after that...
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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1/24/2005  6:00 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by MX25:

Bonn your problem though with saying isiah has 2 young guys in which he is rebuilding with (sweetney and ariza) is that SWEETNEY WAS LAYDEN'S PICK! Isiah came here with Sweetney already on the team.


You giving him credit for someone he had nothing to do with being here.

That's like a GM coming to a team with 3 good prospects already there. And when those guys succeed the GM gets the credit for them. When infact he had nothing to do with them being on the team. He just got lucky.

And yes. I'd take Delfino over Ariza and Krstic over Sweetney.

Not even that but Sweetney was here last year when supposedly Bonn thinks we were dead last in the entire league in terms of having young players worth developing. But now Sweetney is part of the reason why we've moved up to 15th in his mind. Maybe next year we can still claim Sweetney as a piece we just added to keep up with the "2 a year" pace that we're supposedly on. And the year after and the year after that...
Sweetney was rotting on the IR and none of us would have even bothered comparing him to the other players that have been listed. I wouldn't give Isiah a huge amount of credit for taking him off the IR (which he'd probably still be on if your hero Layden were here). Any competent GM would not have had our lottery pick on the IR in the first place. I would give Isiah much more credit for hiring Aguire to work with him. I'd also criticize Isiah for not forcing Lenny to play him more and Kurt less.
MX25
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1/24/2005  7:05 PM
Sweetney even said it himself. He was not ready to play in Nov-Dec. His dad died. He went into depression and got fatter (if that's possible). If Isiah was GM then. Swetney wouldn't of been playing than either.
rojasmas
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1/24/2005  8:55 PM
I've said it before, I like Sweetney but I am not that impressed by Ariza. I don't care how old he is. The form on his shot is horrible and usually you can shoot or you can't, the notable exception being Magic Johnson who learned to shoot from outside pretty well after awhile.
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islesfan
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1/24/2005  9:19 PM
Posted by MX25:

Sweetney even said it himself. He was not ready to play in Nov-Dec. His dad died. He went into depression and got fatter (if that's possible). If Isiah was GM then. Swetney wouldn't of been playing than either.

As much as Isiah worshipers like to forget, Sweetney was still on IR and getting as much PT as he did under Layden even after Isiah was hired.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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1/24/2005  9:25 PM
Posted by rojasmas:

I've said it before, I like Sweetney but I am not that impressed by Ariza. I don't care how old he is. The form on his shot is horrible and usually you can shoot or you can't, the notable exception being Magic Johnson who learned to shoot from outside pretty well after awhile.

Ariza is just a high energy guy who might turn into a decent defensive player. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that but he doesn't project as a starter at SF because he can't shoot and he doesn't have a clue as to what to do in a half court set.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
newyorknewyork
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1/24/2005  11:34 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Right now we would pick #9. I doubt thats going to hold however. Lets see what happens at the deadline, if IT moves a vet for an expiring deal and even a #2 you have an idea where the plan is going.

Ive been playing lotto similater. I played about 8times 7 out of the 8 times ive been between 6 & 7 in the lottery. And I got the 3rd spot once.
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newyorknewyork
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1/24/2005  11:37 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by MX25:

Sweetney even said it himself. He was not ready to play in Nov-Dec. His dad died. He went into depression and got fatter (if that's possible). If Isiah was GM then. Swetney wouldn't of been playing than either.

As much as Isiah worshipers like to forget, Sweetney was still on IR and getting as much PT as he did under Layden even after Isiah was hired.

So it was a coincedence that as soon as Zeke came into office Sweetney comes off the IR and Spoon gets sent packing and Aguire comes in. Didn't Sweetney also say that when Layden was there he was lost and had no role.
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Bonn1997
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1/24/2005  11:41 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by MX25:

Sweetney even said it himself. He was not ready to play in Nov-Dec. His dad died. He went into depression and got fatter (if that's possible). If Isiah was GM then. Swetney wouldn't of been playing than either.

As much as Isiah worshipers like to forget, Sweetney was still on IR and getting as much PT as he did under Layden even after Isiah was hired.

So it was a coincedence that as soon as Zeke came into office Sweetney comes off the IR and Spoon gets sent packing and Aguire comes in. Didn't Sweetney also say that when Layden was there he was lost and had no role.

Some people just have trouble giving Isiah credit for *anything*

Ariza is just a high energy guy who might turn into a decent defensive player. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that but he doesn't project as a starter at SF because he can't shoot and he doesn't have a clue as to what to do in a half court set.
It's way too early to assume he can't develop a jump shot. He's only like 19 or 20! I think his jumper actually has improved a bit since the summer league and even since the beginning of the season.

Killa4luv
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1/25/2005  4:33 AM
Posted by rojasmas:

I've said it before, I like Sweetney but I am not that impressed by Ariza. I don't care how old he is. The form on his shot is horrible and usually you can shoot or you can't, the notable exception being Magic Johnson who learned to shoot from outside pretty well after awhile.
This is definitely not true. Look at Pat Ewing one of the best shooting centers to play the game. He was a down low player and a defensive beast in college. His jumper developed over time into a beautiful shot. Karl Malone's did too. In fact, I would go as far as to say that most big men develop their jumpers in the league. Hell even camby is banging 18 footer consistantly out in Denver. Never thought I'd see the day. His form is horrible though.

Many others cannot develop it over the course of their careers. You really cannot say that about Ariza at this point. What I would say is he is very inconsistant. Its a swish or an airball/brick. That seems like it is a flaw in his mechanics. Training and repition can fix that and I hope i does.

BTW magic still wasn't a good jumpshooter when he retired. His jumper was decent at best, ad he is my favorite player of all-time.
martin
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1/25/2005  9:22 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by rojasmas:

I've said it before, I like Sweetney but I am not that impressed by Ariza. I don't care how old he is. The form on his shot is horrible and usually you can shoot or you can't, the notable exception being Magic Johnson who learned to shoot from outside pretty well after awhile.
This is definitely not true. Look at Pat Ewing one of the best shooting centers to play the game. He was a down low player and a defensive beast in college. His jumper developed over time into a beautiful shot. Karl Malone's did too. In fact, I would go as far as to say that most big men develop their jumpers in the league. Hell even camby is banging 18 footer consistantly out in Denver. Never thought I'd see the day. His form is horrible though.

Many others cannot develop it over the course of their careers. You really cannot say that about Ariza at this point. What I would say is he is very inconsistant. Its a swish or an airball/brick. That seems like it is a flaw in his mechanics. Training and repition can fix that and I hope i does.

BTW magic still wasn't a good jumpshooter when he retired. His jumper was decent at best, ad he is my favorite player of all-time.

I take the opposite approach.

I think Ariza's form is good, but that this accuracy sucks (check out his free throw shots). And that is the mark of someone who has the tools but not the experience.

The guy is 19. I'd place any amount of money on the fact that athleticism carried the guy through high school and 1 year of college. A nice jumpshot takes time. Ariza is still filling his body out *and* he has some ungodly long arms. The jumpshot will come. Watch out during this year's summer league - I am almost sure he will come out gunning the mid-range.
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joec32033
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1/25/2005  10:07 AM
1st off...Sweets is 24 (his birthday is 3/13/80)...so the question would be 2 24 year olds and under.......just to be fair....

Philly-Iggy and Dalembert
ChiTown-Chandler-Curry-Heirich-Gordon-Deng (pick ANY 2)
Cleveland-James-Varejo-Gooden (either of which with James)
Atl-Harrington (24 next month) and Josh Smith
Miami-Wade and Haslem (25 in May)
Orlando-Nelson and Howard
*Washington-Arenas-HayWood (although He JUST turned 25 last month, he breaks the rule)

Dallas-Josh Howard and Marguis Daniels
Memphis-Swift and Gasol (25 in a couple months)
Denver-Melo and Nene
Portland-Randolph-Miles
Utah-Boozer and Kirilenko
GS-Richardson and Murphy
LAC-Simmons and Wilcox (Maggette JUST turned 25 in November)
*LAL-Caron and Odom (He Just turned 25)
PHX-QRich (turns 25 in 3 months) and Amare and Joe Johnson (pick any 2)

That is 14 teams, not counting the 2 that have guys that just turned 25......that is 16 teams, still in the lower half of the league.


[Edited by - joec32033 on 01/25/2005 10:12:24]
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franco12
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1/25/2005  10:57 AM
Posted by rojasmas:

I've said it before, I like Sweetney but I am not that impressed by Ariza. I don't care how old he is. The form on his shot is horrible and usually you can shoot or you can't, the notable exception being Magic Johnson who learned to shoot from outside pretty well after awhile.

You want to see ugly mechanics on a jump shot? Watch tonight!

Marion's form is hard to watch, but he still is somehow in the league...
Bonn1997
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1/25/2005  1:01 PM
Posted by joec32033:

1st off...Sweets is 24 (his birthday is 3/13/80)...so the question would be 2 24 year olds and under.......just to be fair....

Philly-Iggy and Dalembert
ChiTown-Chandler-Curry-Heirich-Gordon-Deng (pick ANY 2)
Cleveland-James-Varejo-Gooden (either of which with James)
Atl-Harrington (24 next month) and Josh Smith
Miami-Wade and Haslem (25 in May)
Orlando-Nelson and Howard
*Washington-Arenas-HayWood (although He JUST turned 25 last month, he breaks the rule)

Dallas-Josh Howard and Marguis Daniels
Memphis-Swift and Gasol (25 in a couple months)
Denver-Melo and Nene
Portland-Randolph-Miles
Utah-Boozer and Kirilenko
GS-Richardson and Murphy
LAC-Simmons and Wilcox (Maggette JUST turned 25 in November)
*LAL-Caron and Odom (He Just turned 25)
PHX-QRich (turns 25 in 3 months) and Amare and Joe Johnson (pick any 2)

That is 14 teams, not counting the 2 that have guys that just turned 25......that is 16 teams, still in the lower half of the league.


[Edited by - joec32033 on 01/25/2005 10:12:24]
No, Sweetney's date of birth was October 25, 1982. http://www.nba.com/knicks/roster/ He'll be 23 in nine months. I'm not going to comment on your list since it's based on the wrong ages.
joec32033
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1/25/2005  1:09 PM
http://www.hoopshype.com/players/mike_sweetney.htm from hoopshype...

Born: 3/13/80

ESPN, NBA, and SI have his birthday listed as the date you provided.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 01/25/2005 13:12:04]
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