[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

KT and Penny for Rose and Marshall?!?!? DN Report
Author Thread
joec32033
Posts: 30615
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
1/20/2005  5:33 AM
Isiah seeks to score Donyell and Jalen for Kurt and Penny

BY FRANK ISOLA
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

TORONTO - Isiah Thomas' month-long pursuit of Donyell Marshall and Jalen Rose has finally reached a point where the Knicks and Raptors are discussing a deal that would send Kurt Thomas and Penny Hardaway to Toronto.

According to a league source, Thomas and Rob Babcock, the Raptors general manager, exchanged phone calls yesterday in an attempt to hammer out a deal that would represent Thomas' first major roster move since he acquired Jamal Crawford from the Bulls in August.

More importantly, the deal would also change the way the Knicks play since Marshall, who would play power forward, is regarded as a perimeter player. The 6-11 Marshall had six 3-pointers in Monday's win over Minnesota and is averaging 10.5 points and 6.8 rebounds in 24.1minutes.

The under-rated Marshall, who has even played center for Toronto this season, is the player who interests Thomas most. However, Rose is also a proven scorer, averaging 14.9 points in 28.9 minutes. He also has a reputation of being a disruptive presence in the locker room, which is why Indiana, with Thomas as its coach, traded Rose three years ago.

The success of both the Phoenix Suns and Seattle Sonics has apparently encouraged Thomas to adopt a smaller and quicker style. The theory is that if the Knicks can spread the floor with shooters - Crawford, Marshall and Allan Houston - it would maximize Stephon Marbury's ability to penetrate and pass.

The one major risk is that the Knicks would be sacrificing defense. Kurt Thomas, a natural power forward, is the team's best low-post defender. He is also effective in playing the pick-and-roll game that is Marbury's strength. Isiah Thomas, however, may be convinced that unproven second-year forward Michael Sweetney is ready to play significant minutes.

Marshall, who is also coveted by Minnesota, is in the final year of his contract that will pay him $5 million. Marshall's agent, Andy Miller, refused to comment yesterday when asked about the possibility of the UConn product being traded to New York.

Rose is making $14.4 million, $15.9 million next year and $16.5 million in 2006-07. The Raptors have been looking to move his contract since last summer. The same is true of the Knicks and Hardaway, who asked to be traded two weeks ago and hasn't been seen or heard from since. Hardaway's contract expires after next season.

Rose and Isiah Thomas had a famous falling out when Thomas coached the Pacers. Rose who has since cleared the air with Thomas, reminded reporters that his relationship with Thomas dates back to when Rose was growing up in Detroit and Thomas played for the Pistons.

"At the end of the day, he wasn't the GM or the president of Indiana," Rose said. "Ultimately, he didn't make the decision to trade me."

Rose, however, is represented by renowned agent David Falk, who is an archenemy of Thomas. Falk publicly criticized Thomas last season after Thomas traded away another Falk client, Keith Van Horn. Former Knick Dikembe Mutombo said that Falk warned him last season that once Thomas became Knicks president he would look to trade the veteran center because of a strained relationship with the agent that dates back to Thomas' days as union president.

Last season, Mutombo and Thomas also had a disagreement. Thomas had suggested to Mutombo that he take some time off - "a vacation," the center called it - and rejoin the team right before the playoffs were to begin. Mutombo refused to take a forced leave of absence and was eventually traded to Chicago in the Crawford deal and then was rerouted to Houston.


I defintaely wouldn't mind this deal...get rid of KT's contact and Penny's...we take on Marshall, but as a FA at the end of the year, we a are basically wiping Dirty KT's deal off the books....Still think that this deal is a precursor to a bigger deal involving TT and Nazr or TT and SOMEONE....

Nazr/
Sweetney/Marshall/JYD
TT/Rose/Ariza
Craw/Allan
Marbury/Brewer

..plus Rose can be used to spell Marbury.....

We do this dealTyhis will establish an IDENTITY...something we have been clamoring for for a while....we will look to play like a PHX or Dalla....more running...I prefer defensive teams but trying to play defense with offensive players is just not qworking, IMO...
~You can't run from who you are.~
AUTOADVERT
raven
Posts: 22454
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 9/2/2002
Member: #316
Canada
1/20/2005  6:08 AM
ok, let's admit this deal go down.

marshall is a good player for sure, could he play the 3 ? in that case, we'd have JYD and sweet at the four.

So what do we do with TT ?

Where does rose fit ? i mean, he wants playing time and we can't offer a lot, except as a backup 1-2-3.

Do we want that ?

I want a draft pick, even a seconnd rounder if we make that deal.
raven
Posts: 22454
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 9/2/2002
Member: #316
Canada
1/20/2005  6:11 AM
Posted by joec32033:


The one major risk is that the Knicks would be sacrificing defense. Kurt Thomas, a natural power forward, is the team's best low-post defender.

that is a true joke. we stop nobody, so i really don't know what we could lose here.

I still think that KT's defense is sooo overrated.
Rich
Posts: 27410
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 12/30/2003
Member: #511
USA
1/20/2005  6:25 AM
If Isiah makes this trade, he better have a contingency plan to use Nazr and TT for a C. Otherwise this move will cement Rose's contact and attitude on this roster until the end of '07, and Penny's contract will no longer be available as a trading chip.

Also, won't Rose and/or Marshall take minutes away from Ariza?

This move seems designed to improve the Knicks' playoff chances, while hurting a long term plan to build a championship contender.

Layden redux.
Solace
Posts: 30002
Alba Posts: 20
Joined: 10/30/2003
Member: #479
USA
1/20/2005  7:08 AM
I like it. Taking Rose is the only way to get the deal done, perhaps, but getting Marshall for Kurt Thomas is a great move for us. We need to take advantage of this one if we can get it.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
joec32033
Posts: 30615
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
1/20/2005  8:11 AM
Posted by Rich:

If Isiah makes this trade, he better have a contingency plan to use Nazr and TT for a C. Otherwise this move will cement Rose's contact and attitude on this roster until the end of '07, and Penny's contract will no longer be available as a trading chip.

Also, won't Rose and/or Marshall take minutes away from Ariza?

This move seems designed to improve the Knicks' playoff chances, while hurting a long term plan to build a championship contender.

Layden redux.

I don't think this hurts our future is we move TT or Marshall.....Rose is the only one that would take minutes away from Ariza becayse Marshall would be cemented as a PF/C....Also Marshall is still a year away from starting......and is a FA at the end of the year so it doesn't really matter for him in the future...Rose is versatile enough to play 3 positions so I think he can be very productive to the end of his contract bwecause he is like Penny except younger....He will be a backup SF or PG on this team and he is an upgrade at backup PG, no doubt...Imagine a lineup of with Rose and Allan and Ariza in the backcourt...that sounds pretty decent to me.
~You can't run from who you are.~
JonsTintedTails
Posts: 20248
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2005
Member: #852
USA
1/20/2005  8:20 AM
Maybe its frustration talking but I would do this trade. They need to do something and watching last nights game and seeing how Bosh a 6-10 PF (i believe) is driving to the basket while our PF 6-9 KT looks like he is about to dislocate his shoulder when he tries to drive to the basket because he has no idea what to do other than shoot 15-18' jumpers.

The only thing I like about KT is his rebounding and effort. His defense is a little overrated though (agree with Solace).

At this point KT value is the highest it will be so its time to move him. Screw the cap. We are so far over already. We get younger and more athletic. And trading KT means Sweetney, JYD and Marshall are at the 4.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
1/20/2005  8:51 AM
This deal is too good to be true. Marshall is better than Kurt (and has an expiring contract) and Rose is better than Penny. Plus the Raptors have no need for Kurt. The Raps are giving up better players and don't even save money. I can't see them doing this even if we threw in Sweetney and/or Ariza
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
1/20/2005  8:55 AM
Posted by raven:
Posted by joec32033:


The one major risk is that the Knicks would be sacrificing defense. Kurt Thomas, a natural power forward, is the team's best low-post defender.

that is a true joke. we stop nobody, so i really don't know what we could lose here.

I still think that KT's defense is sooo overrated.
I agree. Opposing players are shooting around 55% against Kurt. It's because he has such slow feet; everyone can get by him easily. He's our WORST man-to-man defender among the PFs who get playing time (Kurt, JYD, and Sweetney). The team would be better on defense if JYD or Sweetney or Marshall (if we got him) started at PF.
Nalod
Posts: 71374
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
1/20/2005  9:07 AM
KT is a very good rebounder. At one point he was top 10 in the league!

Donny is a good player and a good guy, but we lack inside presence, not what Rose and Donny bring to the table. We have plenty of peremeter presence already.

IT reeks of panic, and fans like the short term buzz that change offers. Im not saying KT and Anfernee should be kept, but I think we must adress the true needs. Our defense will suffer even more, as will our rebounding!
simrud
Posts: 23392
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/13/2003
Member: #474
USA
1/20/2005  9:10 AM
This would be terrible.

Why!?!

The team is terrible, getting another SF/SG who plays no D will not fix anything. KT for Marshall will suck. Instead of 15 foot jumpers out PF will be shooting 3's!

What a panic move would that be.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
1/20/2005  9:31 AM
KT is a very good rebounder. At one point he was top 10 in the league!
There's no rebounding loss in this trade. Donyell averaged 11 rbs a game as a starter for the Raptors last year (to go along with 16 PPG).
Andrew
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #1
USA
1/20/2005  9:41 AM
I'd do it. Short term (prior to Houston's contract expiring) means nothing. The deal puts us in a better position for the 2007/2008 season in terms of salary cap. If the deal went down the Knicks would only have 28M committed for that season.
PURE KNICKS LOVE
NYKBocker
Posts: 38420
Alba Posts: 474
Joined: 1/14/2003
Member: #377
USA
1/20/2005  9:44 AM
If IT does this then I want Tim Thomas out instead of Penny. Penny would be a bigger trade asset than the waste-of-space TT. Then I would seriously consider trading Crawford to Denver for Nene and Skita.

Rose/Marshall for KT/TT
Crawford for Nene/Skita

C-Nene
PF-Nazr
SF-Rose
SG-Houston
PG-Marbury

Bench (In Rotation) - Sweetney, Marshall, Ariza, JYD
Bench Warmers - Skita, Brewer, Moochie, Bruno, Vin

That is your rotation. A 5 man rotation for the C and PF spot. A 4 man rotation for the PG, SG and SF spot.

franco12
Posts: 34069
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
1/20/2005  9:52 AM
Did anybody watch the game last night????

Jalen torched us!

As for minutes- Jalen would cement TT & Moochie to the bench.

THough Marshall grabbed a lot of boards last year, I think there would be a loss there- the knicks would have to make it up and with Sweetney hopefully getting more time and Rose at the 3 and not TT, I think those two would help.

If this is what the deal is, I'd do it- Rose's contract has one more year than Penny- but, he is productive now and will probably be productive through the end of his contract- he reminds me a little of Reggie Miller- how old is he? and he still can occasionally light it up.

I'd start Sweets and have Ariza, Marshall and Houston as the first off the bench.

I doubt this deal will get done...
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
1/20/2005  9:53 AM
Posted by Rich:

If Isiah makes this trade, he better have a contingency plan to use Nazr and TT for a C. Otherwise this move will cement Rose's contact and attitude on this roster until the end of '07, and Penny's contract will no longer be available as a trading chip.

Also, won't Rose and/or Marshall take minutes away from Ariza?

This move seems designed to improve the Knicks' playoff chances, while hurting a long term plan to build a championship contender.

Layden redux.

i like the deal because it gets rid of KT's contract & lands us an expiring one in Marshall...i would assume that Isiah has another trade in mind to move TT...maybe use Nazr as a chip to land himself a C by offering him along w/TT, & future pick or cash considerations for Magloire & a filler contract like PJ Brown?

C - Magloire / Brown / Baker
PF - Marshall / Sweetney
SF - Rose / JYD / Ariza
SG - Crawford / Houston
PG - Marbury / Brewer
IR - Sundov / Moochie

[Edited by - TMS on 01/20/2005 09:55:15]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
JayNYC
Posts: 20732
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 6/7/2004
Member: #682
USA
1/20/2005  10:01 AM
This trade would be good for the Knicks. K.T & Penny for Rose and Marshall. TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE! (Provided Toronto would take K.Thomas)!
Babcock might want back either Nazr & Penny and/or Tim Thomas. I'd do the trade either way honestly. The Knicks would have to get Loren Woods included. At least at 7'2 270 he could pretend to be our Center

NYK
C: Woods/Baker/Sundov
PF: Marshall/K.Thomas/Sweetney/J.Williams
SF: Rose/Ariza
SG: Crawford/Houston/Hardaway
PG: Marbury/Norris/Brewer

Toronto:
C: Mohammed/Araujo/Mourning
PF: Bosh/Bonner/Aaron Williams
SF: T.Thomas/E.Williams
SG: Peterson/L.Murray
PG: Skip/Palacio/Al.Williams

The trade certainly makes Toronto look more complete on paper. NYK gets someone over 7ft that actually can block shots. We'd have a serious logjam at power forward, but what else is new... trade K.Thomas to San Antonio for a 1st rd pick or Nesterovic.
Inhale deep like the words of my breath/ I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death-- Circa 1994 Nasty Nas: NY State of Mind
firefly
Posts: 23228
Alba Posts: 17
Joined: 7/26/2004
Member: #721
United Kingdom
1/20/2005  10:08 AM
If you include vinny and Mourning in the deal, it still works. Then Toronto has a huge amount of expiring deals at the end of next year for FA's or trades, and we get Zo now.

But regardless, I would still do the deal for Penny/KT. SF rotation would be Marshall/Ariza/TT. Yay!!!
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
firefly
Posts: 23228
Alba Posts: 17
Joined: 7/26/2004
Member: #721
United Kingdom
1/20/2005  10:11 AM
This trade would be good for the Knicks. K.T & Penny for Rose and Marshall. TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE! (Provided Toronto would take K.Thomas)!
Bab**** might want back either Nazr & Penny and/or Tim Thomas. I'd do the trade either way honestly. The Knicks would have to get Loren Woods included. At least at 7'2 270 he could pretend to be our Center
NYK
C: Woods/Baker/Sundov
PF: Marshall/K.Thomas/Sweetney/J.Williams
SF: Rose/Ariza
SG: Crawford/Houston/Hardaway
PG: Marbury/Norris/Brewer

Toronto:
C: Mohammed/Araujo/Mourning
PF: Bosh/Bonner/Aaron Williams
SF: T.Thomas/E.Williams
SG: Peterson/L.Murray
PG: Skip/Palacio/Al.Williams

The trade certainly makes Toronto look more complete on paper. NYK gets someone over 7ft that actually can block shots. We'd have a serious logjam at power forward, but what else is new... trade K.Thomas to San Antonio for a 1st rd pick or Nesterovic

Two words for you man, SALARY CAP!!

How dya expect to trade TT+Penny+Nazr for Rose, Marshall and Woods. Its not even close.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
1/20/2005  10:11 AM
let's not get carried away...we don't need to take on ALL of their bad contracts here...Rose's deal is bad enough as it is...w/KT's contract going their way, it evens out somewhat...if you substituted Nazr instead of KT in that trade, i don't like the deal at all unless TOR was throwing us their 1st round pick this year.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
KT and Penny for Rose and Marshall?!?!? DN Report

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy