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Vaccarro Take on marbury
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playa2
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1/16/2005  1:33 PM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/38260.htm

STEPH INFECTION

January 16, 2005 -- PITTSBURGH - He is a wonder, every bit the precocious talent we expected him to be. Anyone who ever saw Stephon Marbury when he played at Lincoln High all those years ago, back when he was playing basketball the way Mozart would have were he born in a different time and place, knew this was a kid destined to take your breath away.
And the thing is, Marbury does take your breath away most of the time. He is a wonderful melange of instinct and talent who can be positively mesmerizing on a lot of nights. He is a natural scorer, an intuitive passer, and while he may not be the best straight-up defender in the NBA, he is a master of anticipation and shutting down passing lanes.

It is impossible to find fault with Marbury's litany of gifts.

And yet, there is much to find fault with Marbury's career. There are many questions to ask, because the splendor he brings to the floor every night simply doesn't jibe with the record. Sooner or later, Marbury has to answer for the fact that he has yet to win a playoff series, that he has yet to push his teams to be better than they are. Sooner or later, certain uncomfortable truths begin impossible to ignore. For starters:

n Marbury griped his way out of Minnesota when, in a post-lockout world, it was evident he would never get the kind of payday Kevin Garnett got. By doing that, he deprived himself of what could have been - should have been - a tandem that would have done wonderful battle with the Shaq-Kobe Lakers the past few years, and might yet have kept Tim Duncan ringless. Not incidentally, the T'wolves have continued to be contenders in their post-Steph history.

n He tried to talk himself into believing that East Rutherford was the same as West 34th Street, wound up miserable and friendless in the Meadowlands, and griped his way out of there. He got himself traded for Jason Kidd, had himself a nice spasm of glory in one playoff series against the Spurs. But post-Steph, the Nets made two NBA Finals and took the eventual-champion Pistons to two elimination games last spring.

n He tried playing the part of good soldier and company man in Phoenix, got himself a playoff series at last, played well there, outplayed Tony Parker there. But there is another inescapable post-Steph phenomenon playing itself out in the Valley of the Sun now: the Suns won 31 of their first 35 games with Steve Nash running the show instead of Marbury.



If this happened once, maybe you write it off as an aberration. Twice, it's a coincidence.

Three times?

Three times, and you start having to wonder two things if you are a Knicks fan:

1) How long before we get rid of our Steph infection and wind up reaping our post-Steph windfall?

Or ...

2) How long before Marbury finally reaches basketball's land of milk and honey and earns a chunk of redemption for himself by leading us out of the basketball wilderness?

Or, to borrow a phrase from one of Marbury's old Jersey coaches, Don Casey: At some point, max-out players have to do max-out things.

Marbury doesn't help himself, of course, in his endless search for validation. There is a difference between self-confidence and self-delusion, and you have to wonder when Marbury will get that. Before the Knicks' game with the Nets on New Year's Day, Marbury uttered this unforgettable manifesto:

"Don't get me wrong, I love Jason Kidd, he is a great point guard," Marbury said. "But how am I comparing myself to him when I think I'm the best point guard to play basketball? That makes no sense. I can't compare myself to somebody when I already think I'm the best.

"I'm telling you what it is. I know I'm the best point guard in the NBA. I don't need nobody else to tell me that. When I go on the basketball court, if I start to think about what you all think, I'll lose my mind. You should've asked me, 'Are you the best point guard in the NBA, then?' and I'll tell you, 'Yeah.' "

On one level, you have to admire confidence that supreme, a self-reliance that certainly explains how Marbury became the resplendent player he's become. But on another level, you have to wonder if Marbury truly embraces the fact that a point guard is judged by the games he wins, not the numbers he posts. Against the Nets, he scored 31 points. His team lost. And that, for better or worse, is exactly what his professional legacy is thus far.

Great player. Playing on lots of lousy teams.

You can make a living that way. Sonny Jurgensen became an immortal as a great quarterback on some of the worst football teams ever put together. Quarterbacks, like point guards, are judged by championships first, stats second. Jurgensen survived. He thrived. You can do it that way if you have to.

It's just that Stephon Marbury was always supposed to be more than that. He isn't the reason the Knicks limp along at their present pace. The coach all but begs to be fired. The lineup is imperfect. All of that. Still, you have to wonder: shouldn't the best point guard in basketball be able to make more of a difference than this?

Shouldn't he be required to?

JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
AUTOADVERT
playa2
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1/16/2005  2:28 PM
Vaccaro in many words just proved that with Steph we aren't going anywhere. Now OR THE FUTURE
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
NYK3
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1/16/2005  2:44 PM
If this was a positive article on Marbury would you have posted it?? NO I dont think you would
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MaTT4281
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1/16/2005  2:45 PM
Posted by playa2:

Vaccaro in many words just proved that with Steph we aren't going anywhere. Now OR THE FUTURE

If you want to believe that article proved anything, go ahead.
You think Minnesota, New Jersey, and Phoenix all got better just because Marbury was traded?
Could it also have anything to do with Garnett developing into possibly the best player in the game (who still couldn't get past the first round until he had Sprewell and Cassel- think about that before you judge Marbury on his playoff experience).
How about Jersey getting Kidd, who for that time period was the best PG in the game, Martin developing into an allstar, or how about drafting RJ?
In Phoenix, Stephon only played with Amare as a rookie. Now he is on a climb to reach a Duncan/KG level. Nash is having a great year as well, and the addition of Richardson meant nothing, right?
If Marbury doesn't win here right away, it may have something to do with the fact that this just isn't a championship calibur team yet. He in no way is hurting this team. Stephon has been taking control and has tried to find ways for this team to win.
He's only 27/28, he is too young for his career to have already been defined.

Maybe it's me whose missing the point. How does this prove anything again?
NYK3
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1/16/2005  2:48 PM
Posted by MaTT4281:
Posted by playa2:

Vaccaro in many words just proved that with Steph we aren't going anywhere. Now OR THE FUTURE

If you want to believe that article proved anything, go ahead.
You think Minnesota, New Jersey, and Phoenix all got better just because Marbury was traded?
Could it also have anything to do with Garnett developing into possibly the best player in the game (who still couldn't get past the first round until he had Sprewell and Cassel- think about that before you judge Marbury on his playoff experience).
How about Jersey getting Kidd, who for that time period was the best PG in the game, Martin developing into an allstar, or how about drafting RJ?
In Phoenix, Stephon only played with Amare as a rookie. Now he is on a climb to reach a Duncan/KG level. Nash is having a great year as well, and the addition of Richardson meant nothing, right?
If Marbury doesn't win here right away, it may have something to do with the fact that this just isn't a championship calibur team yet. He in no way is hurting this team. Stephon has been taking control and has tried to find ways for this team to win.
He's only 27/28, he is too young for his career to have already been defined.

Maybe it's me whose missing the point. How does this prove anything again?
im with you 100% Matt
I wasn't born with enough middle fingers!!!
djsunyc
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1/16/2005  2:59 PM
Posted by playa2:

Vaccaro in many words just proved that with Steph we aren't going anywhere. Now OR THE FUTURE

yes, mike vaccaro, the noble prize winner for "absolute basketball knowledge" proclaimed that we'll never win with steph. finally, we can stop watching this team. i wish he proclaimed this sooner. thank you mike vaccaro.
newyorknewyork
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1/16/2005  3:09 PM
This was a great article. It was 100% fair in everyway. Yo I made a post yesterday explaining Marbury's career and it was deleted like it didn't exist. That was messed up. Imma write it again though in this post since it goes with what im trying to say.
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newyorknewyork
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1/16/2005  3:12 PM
1) How long before we get rid of our Steph infection and wind up reaping our post-Steph windfall?

Or ...

2) How long before Marbury finally reaches basketball's land of milk and honey and earns a chunk of redemption for himself by leading us out of the basketball wilderness?



I have thought these 2 exact things. But since Zeke isn't going to trade Marbury anytime soon. And since guys like Kidd & Nash when they hit 30 have blown up. I think Marbury's destiny is to shine in NY. And it will taste so sweet with all drama both Knicks fans & Marbury have went through in the past yrs.
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fishmike
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1/16/2005  3:54 PM
well, any editorial from the post must be reality. Too bad, I liked Marbury.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nykdunk
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1/16/2005  4:08 PM
Posted by MaTT4281:

If you want to believe that article proved anything, go ahead.
You think Minnesota, New Jersey, and Phoenix all got better just because Marbury was traded?
Could it also have anything to do with Garnett developing into possibly the best player in the game (who still couldn't get past the first round until he had Sprewell and Cassel- think about that before you judge Marbury on his playoff experience).
How about Jersey getting Kidd, who for that time period was the best PG in the game, Martin developing into an allstar, or how about drafting RJ?
In Phoenix, Stephon only played with Amare as a rookie. Now he is on a climb to reach a Duncan/KG level. Nash is having a great year as well, and the addition of Richardson meant nothing, right?
If Marbury doesn't win here right away, it may have something to do with the fact that this just isn't a championship calibur team yet. He in no way is hurting this team. Stephon has been taking control and has tried to find ways for this team to win.
He's only 27/28, he is too young for his career to have already been defined.

Maybe it's me whose missing the point. How does this prove anything again?

"If this happened once, maybe you write it off as an aberration. Twice, it's a coincidence.

Three times?

Three times, and you start having to wonder"

It looks to me like Vaccarro isn't even knocking Marbury. He's just trying to find an explanation for a recurring trend.
MaTT4281
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1/16/2005  4:12 PM
Posted by nykdunk:

"If this happened once, maybe you write it off as an aberration. Twice, it's a coincidence.

Three times?

Three times, and you start having to wonder"

It looks to me like Vaccarro isn't even knocking Marbury. He's just trying to find an explanation for a recurring trend.

My post was directed towards playa's comment that the article "proved that with Steph we aren't going anywhere". For all I know at this point, the guy could be right, I just wanted to bring up the other side of the arguement.
newyorknewyork
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1/16/2005  4:24 PM
tephon Marbury has been called a loser mostly because he hasn't won a playoff series or carried a team to new heights. He has made it to the playoffs only 4 times out of his 9yr career. His first 2 yrs in Minn, 1 with Suns, 1 with Knicks.

In Minn he came in a 19 yr old rookie along side of Garnett & Tom Gugliotta. They make it to the playoffs but then lose to the defending champions the Houston Rockets. Next season Gugliotta goes down with a serious injury Marbury & Garnett still make the playoffs seed but then lose to #2 seed Supersonics the yr of Payton-Schempf-Baker-Dale Ellis-Hersey Hawkins. He then gets traded to NJ who put out some of the uglies lineups.

Nets in 00 the lineup was Marbury, Kittles, Gill, KVH, Mureasan, Eshmyener, Fiek, Mclvaine, Newman, Harris, Burrell. Thats just ugly.

Nets in 98-99 Marbury, Kittles, Gill, Hendricks, Fieck, Jayson Williams who was at end of his average career.

Nets in 00-01. Marbury(67gms), Newman, KVH(49gms), Martin(68gms), A.Williams. The guys that we able to stay healthy were average to below average players. Kittles was lost for the season.

He then gets traded to Suns. The suns were rebuilding at the time they already moved Cliff Robinson and traded Rodney Rodgers & Tony Delk for Joe Johnson losing there frontcourt . Suns in 02-03 were Marbury-Hardaway-Marion-Gugliotta-Voskul-Johnson-Bo Outlaw-Tsakalidis. Hardaway-Gugliotta were both past there prime and broken down. Voskul just isn't any good. Johnson was a promising rookie but they weren't good enough to make the playoffs in the tougher west confrence. They did win 36games though. Next season they add bring in Amare stoudemire *MANCHILD* win 44 games and get to the first rd. But lose to the eventual champs Spurs. Marbury outplayed Tony Parker. Next season Amare gets hurt there frontcourt only consist of Gugliotta, Tskalidis, Bo Outlaw, Voskul. Marbury then gets traded to Knicks so the Suns can dump 100million dollars and sell the team.

With the Knicks they make the playoffs but Houston & Tim Thomas 35pts goes down with injury KT breaks his finger and we couldn't matchup with the Nets.

Going over his career I see someone who may have not been able to bring an average team to new heights. But I don't see someone who brings a team down. Or is a cancer or loser. He played on some pretty ugly teams. Though he did ask for it when he left Garnett when he was on Minny. I believe Marbury will get his time to shine some day. Every player does. I just hope when he does get his turn on a contending team and does some damage in the playoffs its with the knicks.
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bigpimpin
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1/16/2005  4:25 PM
matt
you make a valid point, Matt

since i tend to be a fan who looks at the glass being half full rather the glass being half empty i tend to subscribe to the "other side" of the argument

there are always two sides to any argument. of course it is a negative article directed at Marbury but in order to get a complete picture then you have to make a judgement based on both sides of an argument

Marbury has enough talent surrounding him to get the Knicks into the playoffs which was something we didn't say 1 year ago

"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
Killa4luv
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1/16/2005  5:16 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

tephon Marbury has been called a loser mostly because he hasn't won a playoff series or carried a team to new heights. He has made it to the playoffs only 4 times out of his 9yr career. His first 2 yrs in Minn, 1 with Suns, 1 with Knicks.

In Minn he came in a 19 yr old rookie along side of Garnett & Tom Gugliotta. They make it to the playoffs but then lose to the defending champions the Houston Rockets. Next season Gugliotta goes down with a serious injury Marbury & Garnett still make the playoffs seed but then lose to #2 seed Supersonics the yr of Payton-Schempf-Baker-Dale Ellis-Hersey Hawkins. He then gets traded to NJ who put out some of the uglies lineups.

Nets in 00 the lineup was Marbury, Kittles, Gill, KVH, Mureasan, Eshmyener, Fiek, Mclvaine, Newman, Harris, Burrell. Thats just ugly.

Nets in 98-99 Marbury, Kittles, Gill, Hendricks, Fieck, Jayson Williams who was at end of his average career.

Nets in 00-01. Marbury(67gms), Newman, KVH(49gms), Martin(68gms), A.Williams. The guys that we able to stay healthy were average to below average players. Kittles was lost for the season.

He then gets traded to Suns. The suns were rebuilding at the time they already moved Cliff Robinson and traded Rodney Rodgers & Tony Delk for Joe Johnson losing there frontcourt . Suns in 02-03 were Marbury-Hardaway-Marion-Gugliotta-Voskul-Johnson-Bo Outlaw-Tsakalidis. Hardaway-Gugliotta were both past there prime and broken down. Voskul just isn't any good. Johnson was a promising rookie but they weren't good enough to make the playoffs in the tougher west confrence. They did win 36games though. Next season they add bring in Amare stoudemire *MANCHILD* win 44 games and get to the first rd. But lose to the eventual champs Spurs. Marbury outplayed Tony Parker. Next season Amare gets hurt there frontcourt only consist of Gugliotta, Tskalidis, Bo Outlaw, Voskul. Marbury then gets traded to Knicks so the Suns can dump 100million dollars and sell the team.

With the Knicks they make the playoffs but Houston & Tim Thomas 35pts goes down with injury KT breaks his finger and we couldn't matchup with the Nets.

Going over his career I see someone who may have not been able to bring an average team to new heights. But I don't see someone who brings a team down. Or is a cancer or loser. He played on some pretty ugly teams. Though he did ask for it when he left Garnett when he was on Minny. I believe Marbury will get his time to shine some day. Every player does. I just hope when he does get his turn on a contending team and does some damage in the playoffs its with the knicks.
you saved me alot of time posting the same info. This popular 'logic' bashing steph is so illogical. It is easy to be lazy and put together some stupid article which omits very important facts and circumstances and proclaim him a loser.

KG won his first playoff series last year is he a 'winner' now? KG fills up the stat sheet better than anyone in the league and look at their team. Basketball is a team sport and no one player can do it alone. Not Mike, Magic, Bird, Russell, no one!!!

When will this stupidity stop?! Every team that was won a championship as far back as I can remember has had at least 2 all stars, or a group of very good players. We have neither. We have one bonafied star (Steph) and some promising talent (Craw, Ariza, Sweetney). In a year or two if we still have those young players and add an athletic big and a solid backup PG, we will have a very good team! Trades and free agent signings should help, but we should improve steadily just because of our young talent alone. And all of the youngins play different positions!! That leaves us with the Center position to fill and I really hope Isiah does a sign and trade using Nazr, a pick and vinny B for Kwame. If this happens we are a year or 2 away from doing big things.

Sweets and Ariza will both have breakout years next year. We will be good. How good depends on who Isiah adds to the mix including a coach. Watch and see.

playa2
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1/16/2005  5:38 PM
Posted by fishmike:

well, any editorial from the post must be reality. Too bad, I liked Marbury.

Fishy I thought you appreciated objectivity.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
Vaccarro Take on marbury

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