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Marbury is far from the problem
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NYKfan1
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1/14/2005  8:02 PM
rite now the knicks clearly dont look very good, and with the upcoming schedual things mite start getting even uglier depending on if the team can wake up and make a stand here. ive noticed some people blaming steph and others blaming lenny, and while i cant really defend lenny i can say this about marbury. u cant always look at a team and say that since they r only around .500 their star isnt all that good. look at the t'wolves, they hav garnett and hav a very similar record 2 the knicks, we actualy beat them b/c of how steph playd. now im def not puting marbury at KG's level but all im saying is that when a team has poor chemistry there is only so much the star can do.

Marbury has improved this year, he is far more mature and has def tried on a nightly basis 2 be a better team player. the fact is that this knicks team has bad chemistry and is a fairly un even roster. there is no real down low threat and that makes the job of marbury that much harder. how bad woud they be w/out him, probably looking at a top 10-5 pick after this year.

It is unfair 2 blame this on marbury, if there is a game where u can watch and honostly say his level of play cost us the game, then mb talk bout it, but how many times in ur heads can u think of a game like that. he hasn't been perfect but ive been happy with wat steph has shown this year and he is def far from the reason 4 r problems rite now.
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simrud
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1/15/2005  1:57 AM
A franchise player is supposed to carry the team to at least be above .500 always.

Minny plays in the West, you can' compare.

And Marbury is a great player, the only thing I always say is that he is not a winning player and def not a franchise player.

Right now they are building around him, and thats a misake. You should never build around a guard, unless he is truly special, ala Jordan and Lebron.

If you don't have a truly special guard, then you must build around a big.

Untill we realize that, Marbury and the Knicks will pretenders for years to come.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
gunsnewing
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1/15/2005  2:09 AM
Posted by simrud:

A franchise player is supposed to carry the team to at least be above .500 always.

Minny plays in the West, you can' compare.

And Marbury is a great player, the only thing I always say is that he is not a winning player and def not a franchise player.

Right now they are building around him, and thats a misake. You should never build around a guard, unless he is truly special, ala Jordan and Lebron.

If you don't have a truly special guard, then you must build around a big.

Untill we realize that, Marbury and the Knicks will pretenders for years to come.

the team is centered around steph right now because its the best they can do right now. but trust me....if Isiah can get Brand he will get him and it will no longer be about building around Stephon. I don't think Brand is a franchise player either, there are only a handfull of those, but along with Steph the Knicks would be an incredible team.
playa2
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1/15/2005  10:25 AM
Posted by simrud:

A franchise player is supposed to carry the team to at least be above .500 always.

Minny plays in the West, you can' compare.

And Marbury is a great player, the only thing I always say is that he is not a winning player and def not a franchise player.

Right now they are building around him, and thats a misake. You should never build around a guard, unless he is truly special, ala Jordan and Lebron.

If you don't have a truly special guard, then you must build around a big.

Untill we realize that, Marbury and the Knicks will pretenders for years to come.

Well said Simrud.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
TMS
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1/15/2005  10:41 AM
A franchise player is supposed to carry the team to at least be above .500 always.

i don't care how good a player is, if he doesn't have the right supporting cast, the team won't win many games...& even then there are no guarantees...Carmelo Anthony can't get his DEN team above .500 & he has a terrific supporting cast around him...Jason Kidd is a franchise player but has crap to work with in NJ...Paul Pierce is supposedly BOS's franchise player, but his team isn't above .500...there are many other examples.
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gunsnewing
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1/15/2005  10:57 AM
people like to toss around the term franchise player. the only franchise(guys who are untouchable and you build around) players are Dencan,KG,Lebron,Jermaine,Dirk,Iverson, Shaq & Kobe...maybe throw Amare and Tracy in there too. Everyone else has weaknesses and can be traded. Pierce, Steph, brand, Melo etc

when you don't have a franchise player you need a couple more stars and a good supporting cast.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 01/15/2005 10:58:16]

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 01/16/2005 01:27:08]
TMS
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1/16/2005  1:14 AM
the only franchise(guys who are untouchable and you build around) players are Dencan,KG,Lebron,Jermaine,Dirk,Iverson, Shaq & Kobe...maybe through Amare and Tracy in there too.
even those guys apply...if they don't have a good supporting cast, they ain't winning jack either.
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Silverfuel
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1/16/2005  8:56 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:

the team is centered around steph right now because its the best they can do right now. but trust me....if Isiah can get Brand he will get him and it will no longer be about building around Stephon. I don't think Brand is a franchise player either, there are only a handfull of those, but along with Steph the Knicks would be an incredible team.
Stephon is not a franchise player, but I think Brand is. I doubt we can trade for a franchise player this summer. Hopefully, the clippers dont want Brand.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
misterearl
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1/16/2005  9:49 AM
Was Patrick Ewing a "franchise" player?
once a knick always a knick
Silverfuel
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1/16/2005  10:31 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Was Patrick Ewing a "franchise" player?
He was the epitome of a franchise player but he unfortunately had NO help.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
s3231
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1/16/2005  10:37 AM
Marbury isn't a franchise player (not many are) but go ask the Detroit Pistons if you need a franchise player to win a championship. I agree with TMS on this one. If you don't have the right supporting cast, I don't care who you are, you will not win a championship in this league.
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EnySpree
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1/16/2005  11:00 AM
Posted by playa2:
Posted by simrud:

A franchise player is supposed to carry the team to at least be above .500 always.

Minny plays in the West, you can' compare.

And Marbury is a great player, the only thing I always say is that he is not a winning player and def not a franchise player.

Right now they are building around him, and thats a misake. You should never build around a guard, unless he is truly special, ala Jordan and Lebron.

If you don't have a truly special guard, then you must build around a big.

Untill we realize that, Marbury and the Knicks will pretenders for years to come.

Well said Simrud.

I don't agree.....

Steph as a point guard has all the intangibles to build around.

The problem is the Knicks are not a team that fit his style of play.

Check all of the point guards in the league on winning teams....

Steve Nash was nice on Dallas but was just a regular cuz the Mavs are just a jumpshooting team. Nash on Pheonix is just a whole different player. Nash all of a sudden has become a creator. Why? Because Nash has players that fit his style of play. How do you go from a career averaging 7 assists to all of a sudden jump to 12?

McInnis was a throw away type of player. He was always good but he was getting the raw deal saying he wasn't this or that. All of a sudden he gets traded to Clevland and he is an elite player. McInnis is perfect for what Clevland does.

Marbs never had a major post threat. Yeah you all could say Amare but Amare has just realized what he can do. Marbs needs a Webber or a Brand, or Duncan, or KG(I know he regrets that).

Stick Marbs on the Clippers and they will be an elite team. Just think about it......the Clippers have a really good swing man in Maggette. Brand is simply perfect for Marbs game. Simmons in between game is simply perfect for Marbs....they would be alot better if they had Marbs.....

Isiah just has to figure out how to get someone here.....Brand is a beast but they are losing with him in Clipper land. The Clipps need to trade Brand for cap space and prepare the team for Livingston. Wilcox is a better fit for them at the 4 and with Kaman constantly showing signs the Clipps don't need Brand. What they do need is money later down the road to pay Wilcox, Kaman and Livingston to play with Maggette.

Brand would be the guy that would take the Knicks to elite status.

[Edited by - enyspree on 01/16/2005 11:20:23]
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islesfan
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1/16/2005  11:22 AM
Of course Marbury is a big part of the problem. He's the player that Isiah is planning this team around so if the team isn't winning then you only have to look so far as Marbury as to why. He's not a franchise player but he's their best player and he has to set the example. Too bad the example he's showing is nothing but a selfish player who refuses to play defense and doesn't believe in the team concept.

Funny how before the season started we were one of the deepest teams in the league but now we can't afford to lose 2-3 players. Isn't depth supposed to allow teams to withstand injuries?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
EnySpree
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1/16/2005  11:25 AM
PS forget about Sweetney's development......With Brand here if Sweetney develops into something more that is only a plus.

Brand, Wally, Nazr, Marbs and Craw vs. KT, Timmy, Nazr, Marbs and Houston?

I could be wrong but this team would be alot better.
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EnySpree
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1/16/2005  11:33 AM
Posted by islesfan:



Funny how before the season started we were one of the deepest teams in the league but now we can't afford to lose 2-3 players. Isn't depth supposed to allow teams to withstand injuries?

I don't agree with the other crap you posted....

Still this part I do agree with.

Timmy has been a bust. Houston hasn't come back the same player. Craw got hurt. Penny requested a trade. Baker never showed up.

This would do it to you. No where in this statement is Marbs involved. To say Marbs is selfish and not a team player is ridiculous. Marbs is playing defense. He's just not a very good defender. I'll tell you what though.....he's defensive player of the year compared to Houston.

What the Knicks didn't expect was JYD, Sweetney, and Ariza to play so well.

Knicks need a shake up. Isiah has his work cut out for him.

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TMS
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1/16/2005  1:23 PM
even Michael Jordan didn't win anything until he got the right supporting cast around him...that was several years into his career...are we going to look at Lebron James & judge him not to be a "franchise player" if he doesn't win a championship for another 6-7 years either? if what consistitutes a "franchise player" is the ability to carry his team to an NBA championship, then only Tim Duncan, & maybe Shaquille O'Neal qualify, because not even Shaq won anything until he had Kobe playing alongside him.
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gunsnewing
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1/16/2005  1:32 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

PS forget about Sweetney's development......With Brand here if Sweetney develops into something more that is only a plus.

Brand, Wally, Nazr, Marbs and Craw vs. KT, Timmy, Nazr, Marbs and Houston?

I could be wrong but this team would be alot better.

agree 100% if I'm gonna trade sweetney it's going to be for a guy like brand. Sweetney at his best won't be better than a 15 & 10 player on a bad team unless he really got in shape. Brand is still young and already is a 20 & 10 player on a talented team. I like the idea of getting Wally too.
TMS
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1/16/2005  1:55 PM
to get Elton Brand, it's going to take alot more than Mike Sweetney...probably too much from the Knicks for most of you to accept IMHO.
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EnySpree
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1/16/2005  5:11 PM
Posted by TMS:

even Michael Jordan didn't win anything until he got the right supporting cast around him...that was several years into his career...are we going to look at Lebron James & judge him not to be a "franchise player" if he doesn't win a championship for another 6-7 years either? if what consistitutes a "franchise player" is the ability to carry his team to an NBA championship, then only Tim Duncan, & maybe Shaquille O'Neal qualify, because not even Shaq won anything until he had Kobe playing alongside him.

Good post.

People should read that and get off of Marbs back.
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NYKfan1
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1/16/2005  5:22 PM
w/out the right supp cast no one can win a title, thats just the way it is. dont just blame the easiest target which marbury is. well aid TMS.
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