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Webber and Thomas Have History By LIZ ROBBINS
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TMS
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1/5/2005  10:03 AM
i criticized Layden for trading away a #7 lottery pick along w/our starting C for a guy who hadn't played ball in over a YEAR!

how on earth do you equate that to a trade of KT & cap filler for a guy like CWebb?

[Edited by - TMS on 01/05/2005 10:04:38]
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raven
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1/5/2005  10:06 AM
Posted by diderotn:

the few things that separate Houston from Cwebb are huge: rebound, assist, hight.

That and an nba final too.
Posted by diderotn:

Michael Redd will be available next season, if we trade HOuston now, we may have a chance at acquiring him.....

Honnestly I don't see how. And i dont see how trading for webber would improve our chances to get him cause we have NONE.
PooPooPrince
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1/5/2005  10:07 AM
The Knicks best shot at Webber is the year when Houston's contract is expiring. Other than that the Knicks won't trade for him because stephon + webber does not equal championship.

And that's Isiah's goal because otherwise he would have traded for Carter who is still a better guard than Jamal at the moment,

But the real reason is becuase it makes more sense to be able to play
Stephon/Crawford or Crawford/Houston or Houston/Stephon
and not sacrifice another player frontcourt.

It's clear the Knicks will make the playoffs and then lose early. So I'm guessing they will try trade for future considerations
And Isiah hasn't overpaid for KT or crawford.

alot of small/short contracts help balance a trade when ure over the cap.

It's clear hes looking to trade expring for young stud thats why he postioned himself with small signings earlier on when max deals come off the books
djsunyc
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1/5/2005  10:11 AM
getting webber goes pretty much against what i would like this team to do. get younger and better and build for the long term. bringing in webber won't put us over the top and will hurt us in making more moves. if it's allan for webber, that's one thing b/c you're basically swapping contracts but if it's anybody else, then you have two players making $18-20 mil on your roster that can go down at any minute.

too high a risk, and the rewards are not championship level.
raven
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1/5/2005  10:12 AM
Posted by PooPooPrince:

The Knicks best shot at Webber is the year when Houston's contract is expiring.

oooh poopoo, i nearly stopped reading your post at that first line, i mean, our best shot ? to trade for who ? A 55 yr old webber ? Why not trading for his grandfather when you're at it ?
TMS
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1/5/2005  10:18 AM
Posted by raven:
Posted by PooPooPrince:

The Knicks best shot at Webber is the year when Houston's contract is expiring.

oooh poopoo, i nearly stopped reading your post at that first line, i mean, our best shot ? to trade for who ? A 55 yr old webber ? Why not trading for his grandfather when you're at it ?

raven, you do realize that Houston is 2 years older than CWebb, right? he has 1 more year on his deal than Houston does...that type of trade would make alot of sense for the Knicks in fact even 2 years down the road...i don't see why you would knock someone for suggesting it, unless you just have a personal distaste for CWebb.
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fishmike
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1/5/2005  10:22 AM
Posted by TMS:

oh come one fish...you know as well as anyone that you can't hope to get players like CWebb when they're performing well...you have to get them when their values are at an alltime low when you don't have many tradeable assets to offer...right now, it would take way too much to get CWebb over here...TT? why would SAC be even remotely interested in him when they have 1 of the premier SF's in the game already in Peja? unless you think they'd not mind a guy averaging something like 3 rpg at the SF spot to be their PF?

right now, i'd venture to say that it would take at the very least a package of KT or Nazr, along w/Sweetney or Ariza & another filler contract like JYD to get CWebb...now tell me what's more irresponsible - trading all that to get CWebb or trading KT & cap fodder for him before the season began?
neither! you dont make that trade now, and you dont make the other trade then. The problem is you cant recover from that kind of mistake if it blows up. This is why I'm always talking about guys like Kwame, Curry, Dalembert, Swift, Hunter, etc.. because if we use assets to get one of those guys and they flop we can recover. It would be a setback but not the end of the world. If you make a mistake with Webber your toast for 2-3 years with no $$ flexibility and no assets to improve your team.

If thats what it takes to get Webber now you just pass. No brainer.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
raven
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1/5/2005  10:28 AM
TMS, apologies to poo for the words i used cause it wasnt meant to be so tough.

Now you, please tell me, web is 2 yrs younger than houston, right.

Now look at that :

That's how houston fared since he entered the league :

Born: 04/20/71
93-94 79
94-95 76
95-96 82
96-97 81
97-98 82
98-99 50
99-00 82
00-01 78
01-02 77
02-03 82
03-04 50
04-05 13

Now this is webb :

Born: 03/01/73
93-94 76
94-95 54
95-96 15
96-97 72
97-98 71
98-99 42
99-00 75
00-01 70
01-02 54
02-03 67
03-04 23
04-05 27

So now, tell me you'll invest 123 m$ on that guy over the next three yrs, knowing that it will prevent us to get younger or to start any younger player with potential cause of his contract ?

Would you bet on a guy with a bum knee, that was already very fragile (bad right ankle, numerous shoulder issues and now knee) before even being 30 ?

This is exaclty what lost us the first time. I used to love that guy. But i'd rather look at the pacers, the suns, heck even the sonics and try to rebuild on the fly.

Webber is a name but no future.

Sorry again poopoo if i hurt you.
TMS
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1/5/2005  10:33 AM
i agree you don't make that trade now, because it's way too much to give up...but a deal of KT & someone like Penny for CWebb would be a deal i'd have made in a heartbeat before the season began...we aren't giving up young players, draft picks or other tradeable assets either...it wouldn't be the end of the world if he didn't pan out in that scenario...it's not like this team was ever getting under the cap regardless.

of course, trading for guys like Dalembert & Kwame makes more sense & i'm right there with you on that as i've always been.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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1/5/2005  10:38 AM
Posted by raven:

TMS, apologies to poo for the words i used cause it wasnt meant to be so tough.

Now you, please tell me, web is 2 yrs younger than houston, right.

Now look at that :

That's how houston fared since he entered the league :

Born: 04/20/71
93-94 79
94-95 76
95-96 82
96-97 81
97-98 82
98-99 50
99-00 82
00-01 78
01-02 77
02-03 82
03-04 50
04-05 13

Now this is webb :

Born: 03/01/73
93-94 76
94-95 54
95-96 15
96-97 72
97-98 71
98-99 42
99-00 75
00-01 70
01-02 54
02-03 67
03-04 23
04-05 27

So now, tell me you'll invest 123 m$ on that guy over the next three yrs, knowing that it will prevent us to get younger or to start any younger player with potential cause of his contract ?

Would you bet on a guy with a bum knee, that was already very fragile (bad right ankle, numerous shoulder issues and now knee) before even being 30 ?

This is exaclty what lost us the first time. I used to love that guy. But i'd rather look at the pacers, the suns, heck even the sonics and try to rebuild on the fly.

Webber is a name but no future.

Sorry again poopoo if i hurt you.

again, i was for the trade earlier because we could have gotten him on the cheap...KT & Penny for CWebb would have been a realistic offer imho at the beginning of the season...it's too late now & it would take too much to get him, so forget it...i'm talking about earlier on...the risk was minimal & the gains would have outweighed the risk in my eyes...that's why i was in favor of it...it's not even REMOTELY similar to what Laydum did by trading away the #7 pick & Marcus Camby to get Antonio McKnee...now THAT'S what you call mortgaging your future on a guy with a gimpy leg, which was completely moronic...how much of our future rests on the shoulders of KT & Penny Hardaway? i'd put alot more of that on the shoulders of CWebb if he were a Knick today, i'll tell you that.
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raven
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1/5/2005  10:49 AM
Sorry again, but i dont know how we could have done if he didnt recovered. You justify your tarde by providing his current stats which you couldnt have at that time.

Again, penny will soon be a tradable asset and KT is :
- a good player for his price
- tradable

2 things that webber currently is not.

A healthy mcdyess would have been unstoppable.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda...


you're for and im against. I respect your opinion but wont change mine. i guess we wont go further than that.



[Edited by - raven on 01/05/2005 10:52:23]
TMS
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1/5/2005  10:56 AM
how can you say i'm justifying the trade after knowing his stats now when i was on the board months ago saying we should have made the trade when his health status was still up in the air? i said back then it was a minimal risk to take because you wouldn't have to give up much to get him...

& will you please stop bringing up the Mcdyess example? it's not close to being the same deal because of all that we gave up to get him.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
raven
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1/5/2005  11:08 AM
Posted by TMS:

how can you say i'm justifying the trade after knowing his stats now when i was on the board months ago saying we should have made the trade when his health status was still up in the air? i said back then it was a minimal risk to take because you wouldn't have to give up much to get him...

I said that cause if webber got hurt again you would never have brought it back on the table. I just dont like the "i told u so" things. That's all.
Posted by TMS:

& will you please stop bringing up the Mcdyess example? it's not close to being the same deal because of all that we gave up to get him.

I dont care about what we gave or didnt give cause that was not the point of my post.

The concept of the deal is the same, and that's what i dont like.

I dont want the knicks to bring another ailing star to sell seats and papers. They did that with dice, they would have done that with webber.

I just want the knicks to built for the future, bring a kwame-curry-dalembert and grow from within.

Webber best days are behind him, and i want a guy whose best days are in front of him. Whatever his name.

I dont know how I could explain it better, except by getting express english lessons to improve my vocabulary.
TMS
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1/5/2005  11:25 AM
i fully understand what you'd rather want...no need to explain it any further...the point wasn't that i disagreed w/that line of thinking (i've already said i would like a player like Kwame or Dalembert in this thread as well)...i'm explaining to you the reasons for why i was in favor of the CWebb trade a while ago when some of you were getting on me about it...you can see now it would have worked out for us...giving up KT & Penny would have been a bargain.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
raven
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1/5/2005  11:33 AM
point taken, always fun to talk with you !
diderotn
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1/5/2005  11:45 AM
Webb has been a winner throughout his career. That is the bottom line. He is what those other boys are looking to be like or a little better. However, the chances for them to even resemble the current Webb are very slim....Kwame, Curry, don't stand a chance...
The true Knickabocker..........
raven
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1/5/2005  11:49 AM
Posted by diderotn:

Webb has been a winner throughout his career.

TMS please dont jump on me, i just cant let that happen...

A winner ? but webber embodies what a looser is. Since his days at michigan (timeout, anyone ?), his airballs down the stretch or his face when he played scared ?

A winner ? how many mvps ? how many banners oon the rafters ? heck, even not one conference championhsip. He never went to the finals though he had one of the strongest teams for at least 5 seasons.

wow, talking about overestimating...
diderotn
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1/5/2005  11:56 AM
If you are going to look at it like this, than Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Iverson, Garnett, and a handfull of other players without championships are all losers. Marb said it best, until you win a championship, all the personall accolades mean jack...



Posted by raven:
Posted by diderotn:

Webb has been a winner throughout his career.

TMS please dont jump on me, i just cant let that happen...

A winner ? but webber embodies what a looser is. Since his days at michigan (timeout, anyone ?), his airballs down the stretch or his face when he played scared ?

A winner ? how many mvps ? how many banners oon the rafters ? heck, even not one conference championhsip. He never went to the finals though he had one of the strongest teams for at least 5 seasons.

wow, talking about overestimating...
The true Knickabocker..........
rvhoss
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1/5/2005  12:01 PM
Posted by diderotn:

If you are going to look at it like this, than Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Iverson, Garnett, and a handfull of other players without championships are all losers. Marb said it best, until you win a championship, all the personall accolades mean jack...

EXACTLY!
all kool aid all the time.
raven
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1/5/2005  12:14 PM
no it doesnt. Marb says that cause he has proven nothing and it is his only defense against critics.

Saying marb is as good a pg as kidd cause kidd hasnt won a championship is pointelss. cause as talented marb is, he dont have the court vision and the leadership skills kidd has already showed to us. kidd makes his teammates play better, which is currently not always the case (please note how kind i am with marb there) with stephon.

Comparing guys like barkley and ewing to webber shows nothing but ignorance.

Those guys always gave 100% night in and out. common factor of all those guys is MJ. All guys who played while he was there couldnt win cause he was the best.

KG and iverson already have their mvps. Garnett is already ten times the player webber has ever been, ivy has heart and has carried his team alone. on the other hand, when peja and bibby dont make their shots the kings lose.


(BTW, im happy to have marb at pg instead of ward and eisley )
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